Does Aaron Schobel need to gain weight to once again be effective?

[VOR]

93 Freeney, Dwight DE ACT 6'1" 268

97 Green, Jarvis DE ACT 6'3" 285

94 Warren, Ty DE ACT 6'5" 300

93 Eason, Nick DE ACT 6'3" 305

65 Gaines, Josh DE ACT 6'1" 274

72 Bowen, Stephen DE ACT 6'5" 304

92 Dixon, Marcus DE ACT 6'4" 285

97 Hatcher, Jason DE ACT 6'6" 304

99 Olshansky, Igor DE ACT 6'6" 309

69 Allen, Jared DE ACT 6'6" 270

LOL! Green, Warren, Olshansky, Eason, Bowen, Hatcher, and Dixon play for 3-4 teams, and the latter 4 don't even start. Gaines hasn't played a game yet. Basically you have Freeney and Allen.

[Steely Dan]

Ha...are your feelings hurt? Enjoy 10 years of no playoffs. I didnt say last year...I said this year they wont be a top 20. Ah yes...Keith ellison is going to cause offenses to game plan around him. I see you use all the little inuendos that chatters use on a daily basis...so I bet you sit at your computer, eating your bon bons and stroking your junk to the first fat B word that you talk to. Later loser. I bet you live in Mommys basement too dont you? !@#$ing geek.

 

Yes Keith Ellison is our best defensive player. Nice job of picking the weakest player on defense to make your point.

 

My o' my you need to take some chill pills dude, relax and take a lot of Valium and lie down.

 

 

Of course, every football player with declining skills or nagging injuries thinks he still has his speed and agility. I think Aaron is beat up from years of play. I've been a fan of his, but he is now damaged goods. The Bills blew it when they panicked and gave Kelsey that big contract. That forced them to give Schobel a big contract. Hindsight is always 20-20, but they would have been better off bringing in a new generation of DEs.

 

I'll bet dollars to donuts that he has at least 10 sacks this year. Ya heard it here first!!

 

You show me a Schobel who makes plays in the backfield other than coverage sacks and I'll start to support him, otherwise he is a colossal waste of money at this point in his career.

 

Marv made a gigantic mistake giving him a huge extension when he had multiple years left on his deal.

 

Show me a Schobel comment you can prove.

[billsfan_34]

LOL! Green, Warren, Olshansky, Eason, Bowen, Hatcher, and Dixon play for 3-4 teams, and the latter 4 don't even start. Gaines hasn't played a game yet. Basically you have Freeney and Allen.

I really didnt feel like sorting through all the 3-4 and 4-3 teams. But freeney and allen sure dont get pushed around like schoebel does. I think when the season starts and everyone sees that there is nothing left in the tank for him and that he is too light everyone will pipe down.

[billsfan_34]

Yes Keith Ellison is our best defensive player. Nice job of picking the weakest player on defense to make your point.

 

My o' my you need to take some chill pills dude, relax and take a lot of Valium and lie down.

 

 

 

 

I'll bet dollars to donuts that he has at least 10 sacks this year. Ya heard it here first!!

 

 

 

Show me a Schobel comment you can prove.

Really? Your only as strong as your weakest link. But...I can go on. Tell me the last time Poz had a game changing type game. And mitchell shows flashes, and then sometimes he is dormant. And, we cant forget kyle williams plugging up the middle and lets see, maybe mccargo will actually do something this year but I highly doubt it. But you know what, as long as we continue with this tampa 2 I dont think we have a chance to succeed. maybe we cracked the top 10 last year but I doubt it will happen this year. There is just too many holes and not enough talent. And I am not so sure schoebel can make it a whole year...a 243 lb de getting smacked around by 300 lb plus tackles isnt the best scenario for him. I will go take my vallium now. Thanks for the advise.

[Steely Dan]

Really? Your only as strong as your weakest link. But...I can go on. Tell me the last time Poz had a game changing type game. And mitchell shows flashes, and then sometimes he is dormant. And, we cant forget kyle williams plugging up the middle and lets see, maybe mccargo will actually do something this year but I highly doubt it. But you know what, as long as we continue with this tampa 2 I dont think we have a chance to succeed. maybe we cracked the top 10 last year but I doubt it will happen this year. There is just too many holes and not enough talent. And I am not so sure schoebel can make it a whole year...a 243 lb de getting smacked around by 300 lb plus tackles isnt the best scenario for him. I will go take my vallium now. Thanks for the advise.

 

Yep, we'll see won't we. I guess we have differing opinions of Stroud, Williams, McGee, McKelvin, Poz, Whitner and Schobel.

 

Can't wait for the season.

[DazedandConfused]

I think the theory offered in the lead post on this thread is probably misguided at worst and is just simplistic at its best. It offers the theory that it is playing at a relatively low weight which is the cause of Schobel's downturn, but then offers a simplistic read on his overall sack numbers as showing the correctness of this theory.

 

This reading and potential explanation strike me as wrong for a number of reasons:

 

1. You indict Schobel for having a bad 2007 followed by an injury disaster 2008. True on a simple reading of sack totals as though it is a full measure of DE performance (a misreading often founded in us Bills fans having enjoyed the phenomenal performance of Bruce Smith who did routinely amass amazing sack numbers though ironically this was far from the only measure of his great play).

 

His 2007 did show a huge drop off in sacks registered, but he was also awarded once again with a Pro Bowl nod which to some degree was a tribute to the popularity contest which is a central element to many Pro Bowl nods, but the statistical facts are that the lackluster overall Bills D is shown in that the paltrey 6.5 sacks he registered did still lead the team. He also tied for the team lead in tackles for a loss. His definite drop off in sack numbers in 07 seems to me to coincide with overall D performance downturn which Schobel obviously was a part of but it goes a bit far to attribute this primarily to him by linking it to the lack of production in his injury marred 07.

 

2. His weight has actually gone down since his rookie year, but actually one of the impressive things about his play is that it appears this weight loss was accompanied by an impressive increase in production. This is shown by a significant increase in the sack #s you seem to parade as the full measure of DE performance, but also by upticks in other stats like tackles to his credit, forced fumbles, etc. Subjectively this improvement seemed to come with his use in the zone blitz D which became our base D under Gray/LeBeay. Schibel dropped weight which seem to increase his athleticism as in the zone blitz our DE has pass pro duties. Schobel showed an ability most observers saw as not only credible in the short zone but even seemed to become force to be reckoned with in mid zone pass coverage. With the measure of his tackle numbers going up he seemed to pull off the neat trick of being more utilized in the run D because he seemed to show more strength even though he lost bulk.

 

Maybe the increased weight loss and the team going even more away from the zone did have the impact offered in the theory which led off this thread, but the author does not make a fact-based case at all for this theory but instead buts out a few stats which do not actually support the explanation offered.

 

Like eveybody, Schoebel is lucky enough to be getting older (I mean would you prefer the only realistic alternative) and every body loses a step due to age, but if this reality is the case playing at a lower weight is probably a good thing to do. I'm as much as a stathound as the next game but if you are going to use them then please team up with some analysis which makes sense.

[billsfan_34]

Yep, we'll see won't we. I guess we have differing opinions of Stroud, Williams, McGee, McKelvin, Poz, Whitner and Schobel.

 

Can't wait for the season.

I think Stroud and mcgee are great players. The jury is still out on whitner...however its tough on a safety when the linebacking corps is weak and when there isnt much of a pass rush from the line. To be honest, I hope I am wrong about alot of things and something magical happens. I just have my doubts about the sytem and the coaching staff more than anything else. We all saw the bonehead stuff jauron did on the sidelines last year, and this is his third stint as a HC. If he hasnt learned from his mistakes by now I dont think he ever will.

[GR8PRKN]

The coaching staff asked Schobel to loose the weight as they employed the Tampa 2. Remember when everyone started loosing weight on the defense? Well Schobel has never been the same. I think there is a direct correlation between his weight and his effectiveness.

 

But to me here is the real issue. Even when Schobel was at his best, he was never really an impact player. He never changed the game, or changed the way an offense played. He put up decent numbers a couple years in sacks and tackles, and one great year in sacks but not tackles. But was never really a guy that made everyone else around him better, or could carry a defense for a game. And to me that is all I expect out of a player getting payed to be one of the best in the league. Not to have years where you dominate, but have games where you impact the way that game was played.

 

He is a slightly above average player at his best, a decent player when he's not, and a question mark when dealing with an injury.

 

Schobel never had any help on the line either. His best year was with Spikes and Fletcher behind him Stroud was sappose to be the added help. I believed we were in good shape after Seattle last year then it was clear the Seahawks sucked. I am hoping for good things this year from our D... Nothing woud make me happier than seeing A&A (Schobel & Maybin) sandwich with Brady in the middle on Monday night!!

[Tcali]

Schobel never had any help on the line either. His best year was with Spikes and Fletcher behind him Stroud was sappose to be the added help. I believed we were in good shape after Seattle last year then it was clear the Seahawks sucked. I am hoping for good things this year from our D... Nothing woud make me happier than seeing A&A (Schobel & Maybin) sandwich with Brady in the middle on Monday night!!

You have to be the prime mover--esp at 8 mil/yr..You cant depend on people around you. He was slightly above average with tons of help in his early yrs. He was very very average when he had to carry the weight.

[DazedandConfused]

You have to be the prime mover--esp at 8 mil/yr..You cant depend on people around you. He was slightly above average with tons of help in his early yrs. He was very very average when he had to carry the weight.

I think this is a fair assessment (but a different one than the one which led off this thread). However, it strikes me as more of an indictment of the FO than of Schobel.

 

Its hard to realistically fault a guy for taking what the FO is willing to pay him.

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

I think the theory offered in the lead post on this thread is probably misguided at worst and is just simplistic at its best. It offers the theory that it is playing at a relatively low weight which is the cause of Schobel's downturn, but then offers a simplistic read on his overall sack numbers as showing the correctness of this theory.

 

This reading and potential explanation strike me as wrong for a number of reasons:

 

1. You indict Schobel for having a bad 2007 followed by an injury disaster 2008. True on a simple reading of sack totals as though it is a full measure of DE performance (a misreading often founded in us Bills fans having enjoyed the phenomenal performance of Bruce Smith who did routinely amass amazing sack numbers though ironically this was far from the only measure of his great play).

 

His 2007 did show a huge drop off in sacks registered, but he was also awarded once again with a Pro Bowl nod which to some degree was a tribute to the popularity contest which is a central element to many Pro Bowl nods, but the statistical facts are that the lackluster overall Bills D is shown in that the paltrey 6.5 sacks he registered did still lead the team. He also tied for the team lead in tackles for a loss. His definite drop off in sack numbers in 07 seems to me to coincide with overall D performance downturn which Schobel obviously was a part of but it goes a bit far to attribute this primarily to him by linking it to the lack of production in his injury marred 07.

 

2. His weight has actually gone down since his rookie year, but actually one of the impressive things about his play is that it appears this weight loss was accompanied by an impressive increase in production. This is shown by a significant increase in the sack #s you seem to parade as the full measure of DE performance, but also by upticks in other stats like tackles to his credit, forced fumbles, etc. Subjectively this improvement seemed to come with his use in the zone blitz D which became our base D under Gray/LeBeay. Schibel dropped weight which seem to increase his athleticism as in the zone blitz our DE has pass pro duties. Schobel showed an ability most observers saw as not only credible in the short zone but even seemed to become force to be reckoned with in mid zone pass coverage. With the measure of his tackle numbers going up he seemed to pull off the neat trick of being more utilized in the run D because he seemed to show more strength even though he lost bulk.

 

Maybe the increased weight loss and the team going even more away from the zone did have the impact offered in the theory which led off this thread, but the author does not make a fact-based case at all for this theory but instead buts out a few stats which do not actually support the explanation offered.

 

Like eveybody, Schoebel is lucky enough to be getting older (I mean would you prefer the only realistic alternative) and every body loses a step due to age, but if this reality is the case playing at a lower weight is probably a good thing to do. I'm as much as a stathound as the next game but if you are going to use them then please team up with some analysis which makes sense.

Dazed and confuzed I just put out an opinion and asked if anybody else thought that there might be a correlation to Schobels poor performance and his weight. I could be looking at bad information online but from what I read his weight didn't start dropping off after his rookie year. His weight dropped off according to the sources I looked at between the 2006-2007 year. Was it because they changed defenses? Was it because he stopped using steroids? "just specualting" I am not sure of the reason he did this but I do know that 20lbs is an awful lot especially when a player was always lean. He never was fat like a Bruce Smith his rookie year. Even before his injury last year I would watch him and just see a guy who was getting overpowered and not even sniffing the QB. We paid him like he was a dominating player, not a role player who can't play without a surrounding cast. He should have been the guy who made others better.

[Simon]

Even before his injury last year I would watch him and just see a guy who was getting overpowered and not even sniffing the QB.

At the time Schobel had to shut it down last year, he was leading the entire NFL in tackles by a D-Lineman.

Not the Bills

Not the Division.

Not the AFC.

Leading the entire NFL.

 

I think your question is based on the faulty premise that he was ineffective. It's folly to second guess a guy who is tackling more ballcarriers than any other player at his position.

[Guest dog14787]

At the time Schobel had to shut it down last year, he was leading the entire NFL in tackles by a D-Lineman.

Not the Bills

Not the Division.

Not the AFC.

Leading the entire NFL.

 

I think your question is based on the faulty premise that he was ineffective. It's folly to second guess a guy who is tackling more ballcarriers than any other player at his position.

 

 

Wow, Schobel is the man, I sure hope he comes back 100%

[crazyDingo]

At the time Schobel had to shut it down last year, he was leading the entire NFL in tackles by a D-Lineman.

Not the Bills

Not the Division.

Not the AFC.

Leading the entire NFL.

 

I think your question is based on the faulty premise that he was ineffective. It's folly to second guess a guy who is tackling more ballcarriers than any other player at his position.

Good point, he needs to keep that weight down so he can hustle 8 yards upfield and tackle the guy who knocked him over. Ahahahaha! crazyDingo, you are a troublemaker!

[hotwing]

At the time Schobel had to shut it down last year, he was leading the entire NFL in tackles by a D-Lineman.

Not the Bills

Not the Division.

Not the AFC.

Leading the entire NFL.

 

I think your question is based on the faulty premise that he was ineffective. It's folly to second guess a guy who is tackling more ballcarriers than any other player at his position.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

Well on the field is where you should be nasty but not in the locker room. Do you agree with that? I mean team chemistry is such a large part in winning football games. At 243 lbs...do you really think he would start for the giants, cowboys, ravens, steelers etc... I am talking about the upper 50 percent of the teams in the league.

 

 

You mean like the Colts and the Bears? Yeah, he would in a second. And basically, when healthy, he really is one of the best in the league at handling the run to his side, so I don't think many teams at all would have the slightest problem slipping him in there, assuming they don't have someone obviously better, like Peppers or someone.

 

Now, he would probably not start in a 3-4 defense, because you generally need to be bigger for that. But in a 4-3, yeah, he would start for most teams, assuming he still plays at the level he played at before his injury.

[Thurman#1]

Dazed and confuzed I just put out an opinion and asked if anybody else thought that there might be a correlation to Schobels poor performance and his weight. I could be looking at bad information online but from what I read his weight didn't start dropping off after his rookie year. His weight dropped off according to the sources I looked at between the 2006-2007 year. Was it because they changed defenses? Was it because he stopped using steroids? "just specualting" I am not sure of the reason he did this but I do know that 20lbs is an awful lot especially when a player was always lean. He never was fat like a Bruce Smith his rookie year. Even before his injury last year I would watch him and just see a guy who was getting overpowered and not even sniffing the QB. We paid him like he was a dominating player, not a role player who can't play without a surrounding cast. He should have been the guy who made others better.

 

 

 

Schobel had an interview with Chris Brown during the last offseason. He said that the only weight that has gone down in his career was the listed weight in the program. He has actually played in the low 240s for pretty much his whole career. He even brought one of the Bills training staff to back him up about it.

 

He also said that a lot of the DEs around the league who are listed in the 260s actually play around 245. He was very very rambunctious during the interview. He even said to CB "If they don't believe me, give me their number and I will personally call them and tell them," about fans on the boards who didn't believe that he had always weighed so little.

 

I can't give you a link, because CB's archive only goes back a few months, but email CB himself and ask him about that interview. It was memorable.

[Ramius]

Prior to last season, when he was hurt, Aaron Schobel averaged almost 10 sacks per season in the first 7 years of his career (67 in 7 years). But yeah, he sucks and is simply an average DE. Lots of DEs average 10 sacks per season.

 

I'll give the OP some credit. Its been almost a month since some mongoloid started a "Schobel sucks" thread.

[FlaFitz]

Aaron Schobel in my opinion has not even come close to earning the money we gave him a few years back. I always wondered if it had anything to do with his dramatic weight loss. His stats from 2002-2006, 8.5, 11.5, 8, 12, and 14 sacks. Then in 2007 he dropped to 6.5 sacks and then in 2008 when he was injured after 4 or 5 games, 1 sack. If you look at his weight from his rookie season up until 2006 he played anywhere from 262 to 264lbs. In 2007, 2008, and 2009 his weight is recorded at 243lbs. He lost 20lbs. Does anyone think there is a correlation between his recent weight loss and his performance. Did he sacrafice to much strength to try and increase his speed?

 

 

There is a lot of bad information on here.

 

Let's start by getting rid of the staff asked him to lose weight. Didn't happen.

 

I went back and did some checking.

 

Entering his senior season at TCU he was listed at 250 lbs.

 

Entering the draft he was listed at 263 lbs.

 

His first two years in Buffalo listed 265 lbs.

 

The next three he was listed at 263 lbs.

 

In 2006 he was listed at 262 lbs.

 

In 2007 on he's listed at 243 lbs.

 

 

 

Why the weight changes? It could be they are finally being honest about it. When I was in college I played basketball. One game I was listed as a 6'6" 210lb shooting guard - I'm 6'2" and was about 185 lbs. Either way - I'm sorry because I might be naive on this but in no way shape or form do I believe the soft spoken tree farmer from Texas Christian EVER used steroids so that's out too.

 

Additionally, I know this topic came up last year and Schobel specifically addressed it. He said he was actually lighter than his list weight when at TCU. He put on weight for the combine. The Bills used that weight for his list weight even though he has been playing around 240 for basically his entire career. That he did lose weight but it was fat and that the Bills are always and have always been on top of his BMI and his body fat to muscle ratios and has been right around the same levels just about his entire career. Oh and he added the Bills finally listed his real weight.

 

One player you might compare that to is Jason Taylor. He's listed at 244 but has played almost his entire career between 230 and 235.

 

Since 2001 - player - listed weight - total sacks - average

Dwight Freeney - 268lbs - 70.5 sacks - 10.07 per year over past 7 years

Michael Strahan - 255lbs - 79.5 sacks - 11.36 per year thru 2007

Jason Taylor - 244lbs - 89.5 sacks - 11.19 per year over the past 8

Kyle Vanden Bosch - 278lbs - 39.5 sacks - 4.94 per year over the past 8, missed one yr so 5.64 over 7

John Abraham - 263lbs - 79.5 sacks - 9.94 per season

Julius Peppers - 283lbs - 70.5 sacks - 10.07 per season over past 7 years

Robert Mathais - 245lbs - 53.5 sacks - 8.92 per season over the past 6 seasons

Darren Howard - 260lbs - 49.5 sacks - 6.19 per season over past 8

Aaron Kampman - 265lbs - 50.5 sacks - 7.21 per season over past 7

Shaun Ellis - 285lbs - 53.5 sacks - 6.69 per season over last 8

Patrick Kerney - 272lbs - 72.5 sacks - 9.06 per season over the past 8

Aaron Schobel - 243lbs - 68 sacks - 8.5 per season over the past 8 - take out last year and it's 9.57

 

 

He may not be the top pass rushing DE in the NFL but he has been one of the most productive since he came into the NFL, one whose salary is on par with his production when compared to his peers and one who has had little help from the other side. I would expect with his health returned this year he will be back among the top pass rushing DEs once again.