Beerball Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I honestly didn't know there were Bills fans who didn't like Doug Flutie until I joined this board. It just doesn't make any sense to me. It's really not so much that I dislike Flutie...well, I do, but not in a "I hope he gets run over by a rusty truck that dragging a maggot infested smelly dead carcass" kind of way. It's just all you flakes that really piss me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Bandit, I was at the 1998 week 3 game against the Rams which dropped us in an 0-3 hole. I worked in the Bflo sports media at the time. It was doom and gloom. The sky was falling. Tickets were not selling despite Erkie Kailbourne's efforts in the "Business backs the Bills" campaign. Without the winning streak and the Flutie-Mania, we would not have sold those suites and club seating IMO. Certainly the campaign was not going forward until he led the Bills to that string of victories and businesses started buying the preferred seating. In my mind and in the mind of many other respected observers, Flutie did save the franchise. Furthermore, if there was even the possibility that this was true, then you should be very grateful to the man who at the very least, helped to save the franchise that you love. Secondly I don't see anyone comparing him to Montana/Brady/Manning/Unitas. I compared him to Fran Tarkenton and Jeff Garcia, two excellent QBs who always seem to find a way to win. No one is saying Flutie is a Hall of Famer. But it would be silly to argue that he hasn't been the best quarterback in Buffalo in the last ten years. I've always respected you as a poster but IMO you are very wrong here. Appreciate the words, SJ. I remember the time quite well... Flutie was the focal point from the media standpoint, yes. However, there was much more to why that team won games than Flutie. He was an adequate QB, better than the other guy, which was all Buffalo needed at the time to put a winning team on the field. My personal belief is that any player that was able to manage the game would've gotten the same fan response, as long as the team was winning. Does that diminish his W-L record in the least? Absolutely not, but it does--in my opinion--lend some perspective to the idea that one man saved the franchise. I've always felt that the team could've easily obtained the $4M in revenue that they needed by simply selling the naming rights to the stadium, and I personally believe that would've happened had the team not gone on said winning streak. As for the all-time-greats comparison, here's an example: http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?s=&am...t&p=1457666 Sorry, but he wasn't and was never going to be "one of the best". And if "all he ever did was win", why couldn't he win at home against Vinny and the Jets for the AFC East title in '98, or at Miami in the playoffs that same year, when it mattered the most? I think that too many people perceive that he was a far better player than he actually was. Am I glad he played well for Buffalo? Yes. Do I have a sense of gratitude toward him for single-handedly keeping the team here? No. It's a team game, and the team needed a guy that was better than Rob Johnson. He happened to be the guy, and thus the fan base latched onto him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Am I glad he played well for Buffalo? Yes. Do I have a sense of gratitude toward him for single-handedly keeping the team here? No. It's a team game, and the team needed a guy that was better than Rob Johnson. He happened to be the guy, and thus the fan base latched onto him. POS > RJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 POS > RJ. LOL, that was sort of my point Senator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 The Music City Miracle should have never come down to the last play of the game. RJ was absolutely abysmal until the final drive. He was sacked 6 times (including one for a safety) and flat out sucked. He completed only 45% of this passes and averaged a whopping 3.4 yds per pass attempt. If it wasn't for the fact that the Bills held the Titans to 194 yds of total offense and Antowain Smith actually had a decent game, we wouldn't have even been in there. Flutie had his playoff game in 1999...He had the ball at the Dolphins 1yd line line with seconds left...he was sacked and he fumbled the ball...EPIC FAIL! So please spare me how Flutie would have won the Tennessee game for us. He lost his big playoff start for the Bills. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extrahammer Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Flutie had his playoff game in 1999...He had the ball at the Dolphins 1yd line line with seconds left...he was sacked and he fumbled the ball...EPIC FAIL! So please spare me how Flutie would have won the Tennessee game for us. He lost his big playoff start for the Bills. PTR To sit here and debate whether or not he was a product of the system or "got by with a great defense" is like talking to a pile of bricks. RJ had his shot, he failed. Flutie got his shot and made something of it. If you want to get specific and detailed about it, Flutie did about 100,000 times better than RJ did. He was the best option for the team, yet, some fans have a bitter regard for the man. Maybe they have tall man syndrome or maybe they have delusionitis. Whatever the case for them may be, when push comes to shove and when pen hits paper, Flutie rocked RJ's world upside down. Hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Can someone refresh my memory as to how many playoff wins the great "winning" QB led the Bills to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extrahammer Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Can someone refresh my memory as to how many playoff wins the great "winning" QB led the Bills to? Oh brother.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellDressed Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Ain't nothin like a gay lisp baby, ain't nothin like a gay lisp!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellDressed Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Flutie would have been a damn good rickshaw runner........that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornerville Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 So Fat Stupid Lazy Load Jason Peters undeservedly gets 'named' to the Pro Bowl - based soley on name recognition, and despite leading the league in sacks-allowed - and folks claim he's God-like, while Flutie wins Comeback Player of the Year Award and Pro Bowl honors but folks say he just wasn't very good. Love the consistency. Let's see how you are saying that when he is at a dominant level in Philly as the Eagles march to the Super Bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Let's see how you are saying that when he is at a dominant level in Philly as the Eagles march to the Super Bowl. Not gonna happen. The imagination's a wonderful thing, but Peters' decline as an elite NFL LT has already begun, and the Eagles aren't going to Miami in February as anything but spectators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GR8PRKN Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I was no fan. His second year as a starter here was no where near the 1st. I think you are crazy! Flutie rocked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Flutie had his playoff game in 1999...He had the ball at the Dolphins 1yd line line with seconds left...he was sacked and he fumbled the ball...EPIC FAIL! So please spare me how Flutie would have won the Tennessee game for us. He lost his big playoff start for the Bills. PTR Yeah it's true he (and the rest of the team) lost that winnable game. But really, this was with a coach Wade Phillips who has never won a playoff game. He lost one with the Bills the next year, one with San Diego, and at least one with Dallas with NO playoff wins ever. Also, Flutie threw for 360 yards in that game. If the #1 rated defense in the NFL that year which was, the naysayers say were responsible for all that Flutie wins, could have held Miami to less than 20 points, we might have won that game. So you can't blame that loss all on Flutie. He was one 1 of 22 guys. Check the play at 1:30 of the film and the Jacksonville naked boot. Has anyone who's taken a snap at QB since for the Bills been able to do anything remotely like that? Flutie had a GREAT run with the Bills. Anyone saying anything different is relying on revisionist history. As others have said, he saved the Bills. They'd already be in Tornonto or LA by now if not for Mr. Flutie. Cutting him for RJ was one of the dumbest things the Bills have ever done, right behind starting RJ in the Tennessee game (which we win handily if Flutie starts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Flutie could have been and should've been one of the best, had he been allowed to play in the league. His biggest disadvantage was also his biggest advantage. At 5'8"ish, most defenders were unable to properly see him behind the line. Thus, he never telegraphed plays giving that split second advantage to both the running backs and the receivers. In a game of inches every little advantage counts. Its a shame that he was banished to the CFL because all the guy ever did was win. Forget other stats - he just won. so true. he just won.--not a perfect QB of course----had arm strength issues and accuracy issues...but he won a lot-which of course is not tolerated in Buffalo. We know better than that. Ralph knew better than that.He wanted RJ in there. Too bad we didnt get him at 30 instead of 35/36.Altho still very good when we got him-father time was catching up to him at about age 38--esp with the arm strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLflutie7 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Everyone remembers the games he won. Nobody remembers the games he lost...and he lost just as many...including a playoff game in 1999 in Miami that everyone conveniently overlooks. Once defenders stopped biting on his "jump-fake" move, his effectiveness went way down. PTR Not true Promo. Most people remember the games he lost. His stats were better and he played better in games the team lost. That's because the defense gave up early leads and they were forced to throw or Flutie made mistakes early and the Bills were forced to throw the ball early, just like John Elway did often during his career. How many of those 4th quarter comebacks were from Elway mistakes. Flutie's effectiveness dropped in 1999 because the team had three key offensive players that were injured and A. Smith didn't produce much in the running game. The playoff game against Miami, Smith had 30 something yards rushing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLflutie7 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I think "hatred" is too strong a word. I don't think anyone hates Flutie the man, just the cult of Flutie. He was a good player. Exciting to watch. He won some games. He probably saved the franchise when the Bills needed to sell luxury suites and he got people excited about the team again. (Probably his biggest contribution to Buffalo.) Was he "the answer" at QB? Not even close. His lack of size caught up with him when defenses got the book on him. He was great when he was new, but as soon as defenders figured him out he was ineffective. He was who he was. He had a nice career overall. But those who elevate him to some god-like stauts need to get a grip. PTR I think the hate involves the contract that RJ signed. He was the starter based on contract alone. And fans want to see that money used. They don't want to see a guy sit on the bench, collecting a kings ransom, and not playing and having the backup play. And yes Flutie was the backup. But in the NFL draft status is all that matters along with salary. Kind of like Detroit, they're going to have to play the rookie QB based on salary alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloPride Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I think the hate involves the contract that RJ signed. He was the starter based on contract alone. And fans want to see that money used. They don't want to see a guy sit on the bench, collecting a kings ransom, and not playing and having the backup play. And yes Flutie was the backup. But in the NFL draft status is all that matters along with salary. Kind of like Detroit, they're going to have to play the rookie QB based on salary alone. The hate involves the fact that Flutie was an !@#$. He wasn't nearly as good as he thought he was. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLflutie7 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 To further your point Gordio here are the facts: Flutie signed with the Bills as a free agent and shortly afterwards the team traded for Rob Johnson. The Bills started the 1998 Season 0-3 with Rob Johnson at quarterback. After a week 6 injury to Johnson the Bills installed Flutie as the starter. He led them to an 8-3 finish and the playoffs. Technically he should have been 9-3 as he won in week 6 in a game which Johnson started but didn't throw a pass. Some people blame Flutie for losing that road playoff game in Miami even though he threw for 360 yards and had them knocking at the door at the end. He was sacked by Trace Armstrong and fumbled the ball. However before that play there were several horrible officiating calls which screwed the Bills. That was one of the most exciting and heart-wrenching Bills games in memory. In 1999, despite being less statistically effective at quarterback than the season before, Flutie led the team to a 9-6 record and a second consecutive playoff berth. To protect him from injury, Flutie did not start the week 17 game against Indy. Johnson started and won the regular season finale. For reasons known only to the organization, the Bills decided to start Rob Johnson against the Tennessee Titans. It may be unprecedented in major pro sports that a team has so completely disrespected and emasculated a player who has done so much for them. Of course we lost the game due to the "Music City Miracle." We have not made the playoffs since. The following season, 2000, Flutie was relegated to backup but started 5 games due to injuries to Rob Johnson. Flutie's record in those games was 4-1. Geez what a dropoff in effectiveness (sarcasm)! From 1998 till 2000, Flutie's record as Bills starter was 22-11. It should actually be 23-11. From 1998 till 2000, Johnson's record as Bills starter (with essentially the same team around him) was actually 7-10. His record should actually be 6-10. Oh yeah, and in 1998 when the Bills were not selling enough preferred seating to trigger a lease extension, Flutie saved the Bills with his stretch run and tickets started selling like hotcakes, extending the lease and saving the Bills near term future in Buffalo. In other words, he saved the franchise. His detractors typically point to two things: 1) He was a "midget." Give me a midget who wins games. These are the same people calling Trent Edwards a "noodle-armed quarterback." Fine you guys can have Rob Johnson and Kyle Boller (guys who are 6'4" and can throw 60 yards from there knees). Personally I'll take a guy who does whatever it takes to win, even if it's winning ugly. Guys like Flutie, Jeff Garcia, and Fran Tarkenton are the types of players (excellent QBs) who a huge portion of football fans will never embrace because they're hung up on what they think an NFL quarterback is supposed to look like. 2) He was divisive and not a good teammate. Look, the guy was disrespected and doubted his entire pro career. He was exiled to Canada because of the prejudice against small quarterbacks. He was kicked in the mouth by the Bills when he was benched for the Tennessee playoff game. He was treated like crap after he saved the franchise. I think I'd be a little bit bitter too. And what of Rob Johnson's role in dividing the team? Was he a good teammate? Was he conciliatory and did he support Flutie when doing so would have been best for the team? No. He sulked and withdrew like the coward that he is. Flutie was maligned by the media who were put off by his ego and the chip on his shoulder. When his popularity waned, he was not helped by his icy relationship with the media. This trickled down to reportage and then to public opinion. Doug Flutie is perhaps the least-appreciated athlete in Buffalo sports history. On no subject are more Bills fans more wrong than on their negative view of Flutie's time here. Very good post. Very accurate. However, I don't think that the media disliked him so much. I think they were divided at best. Those at Empire seemed to love him. Larry Felser didn't love Flutie and was the lone holdout to complain about the guy. The national media seemed to love him too. I can't think of one announcer who didn't like Flutie with the exception of Bob Trumpy (early in Flutie's career). The only thing I found was the preseason magazines would rip Flutie. And really they did a every year. But they do that all the time to all sorts of players. I just read a rip job on Marion Barber. How can you rip that guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChasBB Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Flutie should have been allowed to see at least that one season through to completion. He earned that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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