You gotta love the flutie magic

[reddogblitz]

Umm, I think that's one of the points in this never-ending thread - the Bills benched Flutie once he got us to the playoffs. We'll never know what might have been, since Wade opted to bench Flutie in favor in RJ. Or do I have that wrong?

 

Yes, you have it wrong. It was not Wade who opted to bench Flutie in favor in RJ, it was Hall of Fame electee Ralph Wilson who made this decision. The stupidest decision in Bills history. Of course, Wade could have pulled RJ at half time which I was hoping he'd do, but did not.

 

Wade should have told him he was too short and too old, and then put him back out there at the start of the 2nd half. A little reverse psychology. Nothing fires up a guy with a big ego and chip on his shoulder than telling him he can't do it. He didn't get the start, and then Wade calls him short and old, and BINGO. He probably would have passed for 300 yards and ran for 2 TDs in the second half.

[VOR]

Yes, you have it wrong. It was not Wade who opted to bench Flutie in favor in RJ, it was Hall of Fame electee Ralph Wilson who made this decision. The stupidest decision in Bills history. Of course, Wade could have pulled RJ at half time which I was hoping he'd do, but sadly, did not.

He should have put Flutie on ST's.

[The_Philster]

BuffaloPride' date='Jun 19 2009, 06:07 AM' post='1457661']

It's just all you flakes that really piss me off.

Again some truth. Flutie haters seem to hate Flutie fans. Flutie fans are grateful for what he did. Why should we be hated?

Because you give him more credit than he deserved, saw no flaws, and basically worship him blindly

 

BuffaloPride' date='Jun 20 2009, 06:28 AM' post='1458616']

The hate involves the fact that Flutie was an !@#$. He wasn't nearly as good as he thought he was. End of story.

 

BuffaloPride weighs in again.

 

Steely Dan' date='Jun 20 2009, 11:52 AM' post='1458751']

Right on dude! Flutie worshipers are a big reason a lot of people don't like Flutie.

I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Don't like Flutie or his fans. Even though his fans are simply grateful for the excitement and success he brought us, rescuing us from some dark times. This is where I would insert the won-lost record of the 2 quarterbacks who had the benefit of the same defense if this post weren't already so damn long.

Just because he was better than RJ, it doesn't mean he was great

 

Alaska Darin' date='Jun 21 2009, 07:30 AM' post='1459055']

When the BILLS have a team that's as good as the one that surrounded Flutie, they will win with similar mediocre QB play. Flutie was an average QB on a very good football team. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Yes Darin but Flutie was 23-11 with the same defense that Rob Johnson was 7-10 with. He was all we had and you should be thankful that we had him or else...

Again....comparing the QBs...I DARE you to find one person who says that RJ was good...just one. RJ Sucked...we all know that. It doesn't automatically make the alternative great or even good...Flutie just sucked a little less

 

Chef Jim' date='Jun 21 2009, 05:54 PM' post='1459339']

I didn't like him and I was not a huge RJ backer. I just didn't like the way he played to position. With him when he went back to pass it always looked like he was thinking run first, pass second. He'd run around like a chicken with it's head cut off. Even if he had taken them to the SB and won it I still would not have liked his style.

 

This is the third thing among those who don't like Flutie. Besides his personality and his fans, people don't like the fact that he was not a prototype quarterback.

Because he didn't do his !@#$ing job...our defense carried us in 99 because Flutie SUCKED like a 2-dollar whore. He had Moulds and Reed wide open frequently and refused to throw the ball, instead choosing to tuck and run...drives stalled that would've ended in TDs if not for that little !@#$. It was either due to a need to get on highlights or a noodle arm (which is the more likely since he did start off that year ok and was ok near the end of the season)

Cynical' date='Jun 21 2009, 05:55 PM' post='1459340']

What part of "team" don't you get?

Suites and tickets were sold because the "team" won. Flutie just happened to be the QB.

 

Why is it so hard to grasp that if the "team" had won without Flutie, the Bills still would have sold the suites, etc ...?

 

Cynical, the team unfortunately could not win without Flutie (23-11 versus 7-10). You are speaking in hypotheticals. There were two quarterbacks on the roster. We were lucky that Flutie was there to allow the Bills to win and sell suites and tickets. Without him it wouldn't have happened.

Football is the ultimate team game and the defense was the main reason we won games...it sure as hell wasn't the midget..anyone who actually watched the games knows that

VOR' date='Jun 21 2009, 06:02 PM' post='1459344']

The club seats would have sold, eventually. Ralph would have pushed the deadline back.

And you base this on what? It's conjecture on your part and I'm glad we never had to find out if that was true.

 

 

The_Philster' date='Jun 22 2009, 06:19 PM' post='1460071']

maybe if people would stop sucking off the little midget..or if they just realized that football is a team game and it's ignorant as well as insulting to a QB's teammates when you give him credit for wins and losses

 

I'm not sucking him off nor are most of the other supporters. I'm being protective of his contributions to the team. It's important that history is fairly reported and not revised by a negative and virile hatred. Yes it is a team game. With him starting they were 23-11, with him not starting they were 7-10. Again an instance of contempt for those who support Flutie. Why? I don't get it. We're not calling people names here.

If you have to compare him to someone everyone on the planet, let alone in Bills nation, knows sucked to make Flutie sound like he was any good, your credibility is shot

The_Philster' date='Jun 22 2009, 06:21 PM' post='1460073']

They were #1 in 1999...the year the diminutive one SUCKED like a cheap whore

 

Yeah the defense was great. We were 23-11 with Flutie starting with that defense and 7-10 with the other guy starting with that defense.

How is it that everytime someone talks negatively about Flutie, someone has to compare him to the other guy to make him look good? It doesn't work. RJ was a large pile of sh-- and Flutie was a small pile of sh--.....they both stunk! Again, I DARE you to find one post supportive of RJ's play...when you try to compare the two, it's as if you're trying to convince people that Flutie was better than RJ....we all already know that....doesn't mean Flutie was any good just because he was better than RJ...use a little common sense

[BuffaloPride]

Umm, I think that's one of the points in this never-ending thread - the Bills benched Flutie once he got us to the playoffs. We'll never know what might have been, since Wade opted to bench Flutie in favor in RJ. Or do I have that wrong?

Umm, he wasn't benched in the playoff game against the fins. He had the ball in his hands on the final play and he turned it over. How can this be? the guy only wins. He's the magic man right? There was nothing magical about Flutie. He played well enough to win against average teams but stunk against the good ones. Check out his stats aginst the Jets and Giants that year. Good teams kept Flutie in the pocket and dared him to beat them with his arm. He couldn't do it. He couldn't get us to the next level because he was too one dimensional. Michael Vick has gone farther into the playoffs than Flutie ever did and won more games. He was the only QB in history to rush for 1,000 yards. Would you consider him a great QB? Of course not. When teams contained him and forced him to throw he failed miserably, just as Flutie did. And at 39 years old his arm wasn't going to get any better. The Bills didn't throw him under the bus, they simply moved on.

[The_Philster]

Yes, you have it wrong. It was not Wade who opted to bench Flutie in favor in RJ, it was Hall of Fame electee Ralph Wilson who made this decision. The stupidest decision in Bills history. Of course, Wade could have pulled RJ at half time which I was hoping he'd do, but did not.

 

Wade should have told him he was too short and too old, and then put him back out there at the start of the 2nd half. A little reverse psychology. Nothing fires up a guy with a big ego and chip on his shoulder than telling him he can't do it. He didn't get the start, and then Wade calls him short and old, and BINGO. He probably would have passed for 300 yards and ran for 2 TDs in the second half.

Horseshit! Ralph gave permission for the decision....nowhere have we ever seen any reliable proof to those allegations. The only person who ever said it was Ralph's call to my knowledge was AJ Smith, who hated Ralph enough that he didn't even accept an interview for the GM job after Ralph let Butler go.

Let's let you in on some logical thinking here

Do you know who was behind Flutie's big contract? It was Ralph...he insisted that Flutie get a big reward for 1998...made sure he was getting paid more than RJ. Now, there are people who claim that Ralph hated Flutie...I'd love to get hated half that much...stupid!

Everyone knew that Ralph loved Flutie and Wade knew it, too. Anyone who watched the 99 Bills (and had a clue about the game) knew Flutie was playing like crap...but Wade never made a switch even though they had claimed in preseason that Flutie and RJ were both the #1 QB. Considering how much the boss loved Flutie, Wade was afraid to make the switch, especially considering the defense was playing well enough to make up for Flutie's shortcomings most of the time.

End of the season, we actually got a meaningless game at the end of the season and Wade had a great excuse to put Flutie on the bench, saying that he was resting him, but was actually giving RJ a look to see if he could do the job. RJ wound up having a great game and Wade was able to take that and get Ralph's permission to make the switch. Now, as it turned out, Flutie had been playing his way out of that long slump he had in the middle of the season so the move looked stupid...but when you consider that Flutie stunk for so much of the season, that's what they were going off of.

I can say with 99% certainty that was exactly the way it happened

[The Dean]

And you know this, because..... ?

 

 

Not exactly - I said that apparently most of the NFL front office-types were apparently completely 'in the dark' regarding the greatness that was so obvious to a handful of TSW posters.

 

 

"His inability to stay with any team for more than a cup or two of coffee" seems a bit hyperbolic, and one could argue that his playing in 3 professional football leagues over a 21-year career accounts for that.

 

1985 New Jersey Generals

1986 Chicago Bears

1987 Chicago Bears

1987 New England Patriots

1988 New England Patriots

1989 New England Patriots

1990 British Columbia Lions

1991 British Columbia Lions

1992 Calgary Stampeders

1993 Calgary Stampeders

1994 Calgary Stampeders

1995 Calgary Stampeders

1996 Toronto Argonauts

1997 Toronto Argonauts

1998 Buffalo Bills

1999 Buffalo Bills

2000 Buffalo Bills

2001 San Diego Chargers

2002 San Diego Chargers

2003 San Diego Chargers

2004 San Diego Chargers

2005 New England Patriots

 

* Pro Bowl selection (1998)

* 1984 Heisman Trophy

* 1984 Walter Camp Award

* 1984 Davey O'Brien Award

* 1984 Maxwell Award

* 1984 UPI Player of the Year

* 1998 NFL Comeback Player of the Year

* 3× Grey Cup champion

* 3× Grey Cup MVP (1992, 1996, 1997)

* 6× CFL's Most Outstanding Player (1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997)

* 1983 Liberty Bowl MVP

 

 

Yeah, he sucked.

 

His time in the CFL counts for squat at the NFL level. But even in the CFL he couldn't stay with a team for very long (OK he stayed with Calgary for a good bit of time).

 

Could have been a great #2 at the NFL level. but his ego wouldn't allow it.

[Steely Dan]

You are right, it was hypothetical. But Flutie himself, by himself, never won those games. The team did.

 

There was an example stated earlier (maybe a different thread) about Neil Armstrong being the first person to walk on the moon.

I though that was a great example. Because, at no point in history has anybody tried to state that Niel Armstrong was the reason man walked on the moon. Was there other astronauts on board? Yes. Neil was the first, but not the reason.

 

Now compare/contrast that with your and other posters insistence "Doug Flutie saved the franchise". Do that knowing full well a team that is winning, regardless of who is playing, generates ticket sales.

 

If you still believe Doug Flutie saved the franchise, then we better start saying Neil Armstrong was the reason man walked on the moon.

 

Outstanding!

 

 

I'm not buying in. Sounds to me like a guy who hates to lose, and also maybe sick & tired of folks laying the blame solely on him.

 

Folks seem to want to single out Flutie for criticizing some key errors while overlooking his own, and call it 'self-promotion' and 'divisiveness', but there was another Bills QB that did the same thing...

 

"The 'Bickering Bills' built a dynasty on internecine squabbling, reaching four straight Super Bowls in the early 1990s. The Bills may have had more feuds per capita than any other team. First, quarterback Jim Kelly called offensive lineman Howard Ballard a "weak link" for allowing a sack. Then running back Thurman Thomas criticized Kelly for criticizing Ballard. Asked in an interview to identify the team's weakest position, Thomas replied, "Quarterback." When he wasn't bad-mouthing his line and his backfield, Kelly had running feuds with wide receivers Andre Reed and Chris Burkett. Many believe Burkett was cut at Kelly's prompting. On defense, there were sideline fights between Bruce Smith and Cornelius Bennett. And two Bills assistant coaches got into a fistfight while watching game film."

 

link

 

...yet I don't see anyone bashing that guy.

 

Kelly grew up and Flutie, at age 40, was still very immature. Burkett was cut because he was a Flutiesk dick. After the one year the Bills put it all together as a team. I don't recall Kelly blaming anyone after that season. Steve Tasker talks about that year in his football biography. It was a one year thing and they all became a very close team after that. Isn't it odd how Jim Kelly stayed with one NFL team his whole career?

 

 

Umm..we did bash Kelly at the time. Remember fans heckling him so bad after a loss he gave them the finger. Kelly was young at the time and didn't know better. He learned, and played a major roll in guiding us to 4 superbowls. What was Fluties excuse? Was he young? Did he not know better? Did he guide us to any superbowls?

 

'Nuff said.

 

 

Hmmmm. Sounds suspiciously like another player. Except that said other player is a future HOF'er, and Flutie is not.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa he's in the Canadian League HOF. Which is like being the tallest midget.

[Chef Jim]

Twenty !@#$ing pages??

[Frez]

Doug Flutie > Rob Johnson

 

[Steely Dan]

Doug Flutie's # of SB rings < RJ's SB ring.

[The Dean]

Twenty !@#$ing pages??

 

 

Only ten, for me.

 

EDIT:

 

Wait..."Only"?

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

Horseshit! Ralph gave permission for the decision....nowhere have we ever seen any reliable proof to those allegations. The only person who ever said it was Ralph's call to my knowledge was AJ Smith, who hated Ralph enough that he didn't even accept an interview for the GM job after Ralph let Butler go.

Let's let you in on some logical thinking here

Do you know who was behind Flutie's big contract? It was Ralph...he insisted that Flutie get a big reward for 1998...made sure he was getting paid more than RJ. Now, there are people who claim that Ralph hated Flutie...I'd love to get hated half that much...stupid!

Everyone knew that Ralph loved Flutie and Wade knew it, too. Anyone who watched the 99 Bills (and had a clue about the game) knew Flutie was playing like crap...but Wade never made a switch even though they had claimed in preseason that Flutie and RJ were both the #1 QB. Considering how much the boss loved Flutie, Wade was afraid to make the switch, especially considering the defense was playing well enough to make up for Flutie's shortcomings most of the time.

End of the season, we actually got a meaningless game at the end of the season and Wade had a great excuse to put Flutie on the bench, saying that he was resting him, but was actually giving RJ a look to see if he could do the job. RJ wound up having a great game and Wade was able to take that and get Ralph's permission to make the switch. Now, as it turned out, Flutie had been playing his way out of that long slump he had in the middle of the season so the move looked stupid...but when you consider that Flutie stunk for so much of the season, that's what they were going off of.

I can say with 99% certainty that was exactly the way it happened

 

I think it was pretty well discussed at the time that Ralph pushed for RJ to start in the Titans playoff game. A big part of the reason AJ Smith didn't want to stay in Buffalo was because of RW's meddling. I would have to accept AJ Smith's version over other opinions since he was a key insider in the Bills FO during that time. In any case it was a crazy thing to replace the starter for a key game like that and I think Flutie would likely have led us to a win the way the Bills defense played.

 

I miss the intensity of Flutie and the national interest in the Bills during the Flutie days and we were routinely going to the playoffs in those days also. Perhaps TO will bring some of the intensity and national interest back to the Bills.

[Tcali]

His time in the CFL counts for squat at the NFL level. But even in the CFL he couldn't stay with a team for very long (OK he stayed with Calgary for a good bit of time).

 

Could have been a great #2 at the NFL level. but his ego wouldn't allow it.

huh? his prime yrs were in the cfl..where he was one of the greatest of all time. He was plenty good as an NFL starter even at ages 35-38. He was a great athlete who needed to be on the field. He could have been an excellent QB in the NFL were he to have spent his prime yrs there.The fact that he was a very good NFL QB at his advanced age proves that. Was he a great NFL QB--of course not.--But to suggest him being a #2 is silly......well Steve Young was a #2....but that doesn't count.

[Peter]

Umm, he wasn't benched in the playoff game against the fins. He had the ball in his hands on the final play and he turned it over. How can this be? the guy only wins. He's the magic man right?

 

Shhh. The Flutopians don't want to be reminded of this. They want to pretend that he did not blow that game. If RJ had fumbled the ball at the goal line to lose that game, they would still be going crazy about it.

[Peter]

I think it was pretty well discussed at the time that Ralph pushed for RJ to start in the Titans playoff game. A big part of the reason AJ Smith didn't want to stay in Buffalo was because of RW's meddling. I would have to accept AJ Smith's version over other opinions since he was a key insider in the Bills FO during that time. In any case it was a crazy thing to replace the starter for a key game like that and I think Flutie would likely have led us to a win the way the Bills defense played.

 

I miss the intensity of Flutie and the national interest in the Bills during the Flutie days and we were routinely going to the playoffs in those days also. Perhaps TO will bring some of the intensity and national interest back to the Bills.

 

AJ never had an ax to grind?!?

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

AJ never had an ax to grind?!?

 

The point is not whether AJ had an ax to grind. The point is that if AJ didn't like RW so much he didn't want to stay with the Bills he must have had some real reasons why he was willing to leave a team and move to a new city and team, etc. If he was also the kind of person who wanted to leave with a parting shot couldn't he have found one true thing to say about RW that would leave a bad impression of RW instead of making up a total lie about RW? If it is not true that RW pushed for RJ to start and AJ lied and said it was the case wouldn't there also be a risk that everyone else associated with the Bills could come out and convincingly show that AJ was lying? That would only make AJ look like a jerk and low-life to the whole world.

 

So it makes more sense to think that what AJ said was true since if it wasn't true he could have found something else or (several other things) embarrassing to say about RW that was true. Most people in my observation who leave an organization and want to spill dirt on the organization do say something true about the organization because they know enough true bad things and don't have to make up something bad to say about the organization.

[Steely Dan]

I think it was pretty well discussed at the time that Ralph pushed for RJ to start in the Titans playoff game. A big part of the reason AJ Smith didn't want to stay in Buffalo was because of RW's meddling. I would have to accept AJ Smith's version over other opinions since he was a key insider in the Bills FO during that time. In any case it was a crazy thing to replace the starter for a key game like that and I think Flutie would likely have led us to a win the way the Bills defense played.

 

I miss the intensity of Flutie and the national interest in the Bills during the Flutie days and we were routinely going to the playoffs in those days also. Perhaps TO will bring some of the intensity and national interest back to the Bills.

 

IIRC, AJ smith interviewed for the GM spot.

[The_Philster]

IIRC, AJ smith interviewed for the GM spot.

nope...he had no interest in it

 

as far as it being discussed at the time, not a single credible source came out and said it was Ralph's call...only that he approved of it

[The Senator]

Twenty !@#$ing pages??

NAMBLA

[Gordio]

Bucky was right on in that article.

 

If you ever have a chance to have a private conversation with some of the Bills on that team (especially those that had been stars on the team for some time), ask them what they thought of Flutie.

 

 

Can not argue with that but I will bet if you ask any one of them in a must win game who they would rather have under center; R/J or Flute they would all say #7.