Reed83HOF Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I was reading the Jay R story on the stadium wall...and then went to msnbc and saw this link... This is exactly was we have separation of church and state spelled out in the consititition... Crazy This is one helluva story...the outcomes have the ability to/will transform the middle east for years to come... Maybe Dan Marino can offer them a free autogpraphed football... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Not sure how much of what is going on right now has to do with religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 Not sure how much of what is going on right now has to do with religion. Let's see you basically have a unelected supreme cleric ruler along with a 12 member cleric body who determines who runs in an election and could easily ensure "their" candidate wins an election, can force "elected" officials to pass or not pass laws ... He is a one man pope, supreme court and basically dictator.... Yes the protests are related to what amounts to a coup, there is some back-tracking where the head cleric who initially asked all to embrace the asshat president and how is now indicating that his 12 man cleric body will look for voting irregularities... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Let's see you basically have a unelected supreme cleric ruler along with a 12 member cleric body who determines who runs in an election and could easily ensure "their" candidate wins an election, can force "elected" officials to pass or not pass laws ... He is a one man pope, supreme court and basically dictator.... Yes the protests are related to what amounts to a coup, there is some back-tracking where the head cleric who initially asked all to embrace the asshat president and how is now indicating that his 12 man cleric body will look for voting irregularities... Sounds a lot like you have a problem with them not being a democracy or having a separation of powers. Not having legally separated church and state can cause all sorts of issues, but I don't see how this is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWVaBeach Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Being moved to PPP in 3, 2, 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Sounds a lot like you have a problem with them not being a democracy or having a separation of powers. Not having legally separated church and state can cause all sorts of issues, but I don't see how this is one of them. The ruling religious council has to vette the candidates for election. No candidate not supported by the Islamic council can run. It's related, but not terribly closely - this seems to be a grass-roots revolt against the dictatorial practices of the council more than any questions about the election itself. The election's a convenient excuse for a decade (at least) of pent-up frustration. What's most interesting to me is that the council, as a bunch of revolutionaries swept to power by largely this same sort of reaction, don't seem entirely sure how to handle it. I imagine a bunch of guys in turbans sitting in a room in Tehran asking themselves "Damn those Americans for not having diplomatic relations with us! Are there any other embassies we can ask the crowds to trash?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 Sounds a lot like you have a problem with them not being a democracy or having a separation of powers. Not having legally separated church and state can cause all sorts of issues, but I don't see how this is one of them. Not at all.. no problems with any of that...to each their own...you are reading way more into it / something totally different than I originally meant... My original post about reading the Jay R. post obviously dealt with religion and the next thing I read had to do with a possibly tainted election in Iran... That area of the world is very religious and at times governmental decisions in that area are influenced by religion...hence my little quip regarding our separtation of church and state the was included because of the previous W administration... Iran's government is a hybrid religious cleric/elected-official goverment...the religious body selects who runs for the elected positions while much of the real policy is dictated by the religous clerics What is going on over there is that the people are pissed about an election that may have been a defacto coup-de-tat...with the winner of the election being hand chosen in 2005 by the supreme cleric and currently not popular with many Iranian citizens due to a poor economy and other various issues who won in a landslide.... What is going on over there can vastly change the world over the next few decades...I am simply wondering what other thoughts are of the violence, the protests, the police beatings, and basic shut down of the internet , text messaging etc... I am interested to know your views (faustus) other than your comments regarding me having an issue with church and state... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 The ruling religious council has to vette the candidates for election. No candidate not supported by the Islamic council can run. It's related, but not terribly closely - this seems to be a grass-roots revolt against the dictatorial practices of the council more than any questions about the election itself. The election's a convenient excuse for a decade (at least) of pent-up frustration. What's most interesting to me is that the council, as a bunch of revolutionaries swept to power by largely this same sort of reaction, don't seem entirely sure how to handle it. I imagine a bunch of guys in turbans sitting in a room in Tehran asking themselves "Damn those Americans for not having diplomatic relations with us! Are there any other embassies we can ask the crowds to trash?" I tend to agree with this... I think the council gravely underestimated the festering frustration building up over the past decade or two...and they did not believe/forsee that the results from this "election" was going to possibly blossom into what it is... I think it is important for America to bascially keeps its mouth shut and let it play out. If we open our mouths it can have a devestating effect as we are now with the revolters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I tend to agree with this... I think the council gravely underestimated the festering frustration building up over the past decade or two...and they did not believe/forsee that the results from this "election" was going to possibly blossom into what it is... I think it is important for America to bascially keeps its mouth shut and let it play out. If we open our mouths it can have a devestating effect as we are now with the revolters... I am actually picturing a lot of them going, "What is this Twitter?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 The ruling religious council has to vette the candidates for election. No candidate not supported by the Islamic council can run. It's related, but not terribly closely - this seems to be a grass-roots revolt against the dictatorial practices of the council more than any questions about the election itself. The election's a convenient excuse for a decade (at least) of pent-up frustration. What's most interesting to me is that the council, as a bunch of revolutionaries swept to power by largely this same sort of reaction, don't seem entirely sure how to handle it. I imagine a bunch of guys in turbans sitting in a room in Tehran asking themselves "Damn those Americans for not having diplomatic relations with us! Are there any other embassies we can ask the crowds to trash?" I understand, but the council could be made up of any group and there would be the same tensions as there are now. I get that politics and religion are one and the same there, but the people don't seem to have any problem with the religion. It's the fact that this group is making all of the decisions despite what the people want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Not at all.. no problems with any of that...to each their own...you are reading way more into it / something totally different than I originally meant... Yes, apparently I totally misread your original post and your reply. I think it is important for America to bascially keeps its mouth shut and let it play out. If we open our mouths it can have a devestating effect as we are now with the revolters... Personally, I think this is key for almost all foreign situations. And you're right, any American involvment is going to take serious heat from all sides. Not that this is based on anything at all, just my meaningless opinion, I think this all quiets down without too much coming of it. I think Tom's right in that this pent up frustration, but really it's nothing new. They know their system, they understand it's a problem. It's not like this is shock to everyone and the government completely trashed their normal laws and way of life in order to get someone elected. It's very possible this could be the final straw that leads to revolution, but it just doesn't seem like it's there yet. And really, I'm not sure if I hope I"m wrong about that or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I am actually picturing a lot of them going, "What is this Twitter?" And the guy that started Twitter hasn't figured out how to make money yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 I understand, but the council could be made up of any group and there would be the same tensions as there are now. I get that politics and religion are one and the same there, but the people don't seem to have any problem with the religion. It's the fact that this group is making all of the decisions despite what the people want. Thats where this gets slightly interesting, the protestors, large portion of younger people, want reforms and more normalized relations with other industrialized nations. They are more moderate than the hardline islamic clerics...Reformist presidents and parliments were elected in the past, but the ruling islamic clerics are hardliners and blocked many reforms from actually happening and when election time came around again, astonishingly enough the reformist incumbanets lost...which is what we have here today...I even recall reading somewhere that the reformists were even pushing for greater equality for women and allowing them to dress in different attire... The group making the decisions are trying to save their a$$es which is why after declaring the winner, they back tracked and are now saying they will look into the election...It is interesting to note that a very popular cleric is supporting the loser of the election...so the religious aspect is still intertwined... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Flanders Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I saw video from Iran, then saw video from LA last night right after the Lakers game...it's was hard to tell the two apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Being moved to PPP in 3, 2, 1. There's a PPP thread, but this is far too important a topic to restrict it to that board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 There's a PPP thread, but this is far too important a topic to restrict it to that board. PPP Thread Edit - I just wanted to make sure that this got the exposure it deserves...I know when I peruse the site, I look @ the headlines, click on the TSW link and tend to go to OTW quickly and may not make it back to the other boards for a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britbillsfan Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 The current president is not that popular with a lot of the hardliners either. He is the first non-cleric president of the Islamic Republic, his backing is the powerful Revolutionary Guards and the hardline militas and Khamenei. Interestingly it is possible to have the council remove the supreme leader and appoint someone else. Unlikely to happen, and it will not be somebody all that pleasant either, but it might be used as a sop to the protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Not used to discussing stuff like this here... However, the demonstration pictures yesterday blew me away. That was a lot of people. I have read a lot of stuff on what is going on, but most of it is anecdotal. I was particularly struck by the story of a woman holding up a sign in protest and cars streaming past all yelling out support. One streamed past and called her a umm lady of the evening, while one guy came at her with a club. 5 guys jumped the man intent on doing harm to the female protester. I also loved the stories about the Iranian government and how they filtered out websites. People around the world helped them get around the filters at least partially (thanks Lori, you made my day). Hackers attacked the Iranian sites. I have to say, I am actually sort of disappointed in them, I would have thought they could cut off all Iranian government networks. I just read where they are going to do a partial recount maybe...shouldn't that only take about 30 minutes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 One of the most astounding pieces of information I read was that the amount of people protesting was ~5 miles long...that is mind boggling... "The march also marked Mousavi's first public appearance since shortly after the election and said he was willing to "pay any price" in his demands to overturn the election results. " This just indicates that this could turn into a civil war/revolution in Iran...In any event, Mousavi could end up becoming a martyr - this is a powerful message that indicates he knows that attempts on his life will take place (if they haven't already), but he is willing to pay that price...If he is indeed assassinated @ some point - does it end the uprising or kick it into overdrive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 One of the most astounding pieces of information I read was that the amount of people protesting was ~5 miles long...that is mind boggling... "The march also marked Mousavi's first public appearance since shortly after the election and said he was willing to "pay any price" in his demands to overturn the election results. " This just indicates that this could turn into a civil war/revolution in Iran...In any event, Mousavi could end up becoming a martyr - this is a powerful message that indicates he knows that attempts on his life will take place (if they haven't already), but he is willing to pay that price...If he is indeed assassinated @ some point - does it end the uprising or kick it into overdrive? Overdrive IMO. The Iranians have a lot of young people. Sadly, the other side has the guns. That never seems to work in the long run, but can stave off things for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts