Kettle Creek Football Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 i just saw this on NFL network and at number 6 for the greatest innovation to the NFL was the BENGALS no-huddle offense with boomer esiason. they said the bengals invented it in the late 80's and marv levy (after informing the comissioner that it was illegal) then "stole" it. they had boomer on there saying that he resented marv for steeling it and going to the next four superbowls. they then showed some highlights about the bills for 2 seconds, mentioned chicken wings and then went on to say that peyton manning revolutionized the no-huddle. all in all they basically denied that the bills invented it, called marv levy a cheater, and then gave peyton manning credit for revolutionizing the offense (thats not to say he doesn't run it very well) but they could have at least given us this little tid-bit in NFL history, now all we have is OJ Simpson and not for his 2,000 yard season...WTF? Seriously, who cares what the NFL Network "Top 10" show says, anyway?
BillsWatch Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Seriously, who cares what the NFL Network "Top 10" show says, anyway? Â All of those who get worked up because they can not have NFL Network on basic cable.
faderphreak Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 It's true but Lori's clarified it.       You do know that Kelly was recruited by Paterno to be a linebacker at Penn State, right? Kelly was a QB with a linebackers body. Kelly laid a hit on a guy who intercepted one of his passes, I forget who, and unintentionally broke his leg.  It was one of the Falcons, Phillips or Walker I think. It wasn't so much a big hit though. It was more of a freak thing. I remember the guy's foot just flopping around. Kelly had a few hits that were much more crushing than that one.
rackemrack Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Seriously, who cares what the NFL Network "Top 10" show says, anyway? Â exactly, they had bruce rated as the #4 pass rusher! he was good enough for #2 at least
Spiderweb Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Um, yeah, that pretty much covers it. Except for the fact that the Bengals' version -- the "sugar" huddle in particular -- was willfully designed to catch the defense with too many men on the field if they tried to substitute. That's why Levy complained to the league, and he was right. The K-Gun didn't need chicanery; with three Hall of Famers (and counting) on the field, they merely ran the defense ragged.  Oh, and <bleep> Boomer. One of my favorite Bruce Smith sacks was a decleater on Norman, after he'd moved on to the Jets.  Thats "hit" was beautiful. It probably took Esiason a week to remember his own name.
Kettle Creek Football Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 exactly, they had bruce rated as the #4 pass rusher! he was good enough for #2 at least It's not the most "Scientific" show. I think it's whatever is on Rich Eisen's mind at the time of filming.
rackemrack Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 It's not the most "Scientific" show. I think it's whatever is on Rich Eisen's mind at the time of filming. Â pretty much, eisen's a jackass
SouthernMan Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 i just saw this on NFL network and at number 6 for the greatest innovation to the NFL was the BENGALS no-huddle offense with boomer esiason. they said the bengals invented it in the late 80's and marv levy (after informing the comissioner that it was illegal) then "stole" it. they had boomer on there saying that he resented marv for steeling it and going to the next four superbowls. they then showed some highlights about the bills for 2 seconds, mentioned chicken wings and then went on to say that peyton manning revolutionized the no-huddle. all in all they basically denied that the bills invented it, called marv levy a cheater, and then gave peyton manning credit for revolutionizing the offense (thats not to say he doesn't run it very well) but they could have at least given us this little tid-bit in NFL history, now all we have is OJ Simpson and not for his 2,000 yard season...WTF? Â Â The Bengals version and Bills version are only connected because of their close proximity in history, otherwise there's really no connection. They were two different things. Â AS pointed out previously, the Bengals employed a "sugar" huddle, though legal, was not within the spirit of the game. It was a sneaky way to keep the defense confused about the offensive personnel. The offense would have too many men in the huddle before the excess players ran to the sidelines, thereby preventing a defensive substitution and hopefully creating mismatches. Yes, Marv (and others) cried foul, and the rules were subsequently changed to make the tactic illegal by NFL rules. Â The Bills, on the other hand, kept the same personnel on the field. There was no trickery involved. It was built on the premis of creating mis-matches with it's superior skill players at an accelerated pace. It was a fast break offense that evolved after O-coordinator Ted Marchibroda noticed how efficient the Bills offense had been in two-minute drill situations. With Kelly acting as field general, the team seemingly moved the chains at will. This was first detected in the 1990 season, and (IIRC) officially unveiled against the Eagles in the 12th game of the season. Levy always credited it's success to the talents of the personnel rather than the system. Thurman's superior knowledge of the offense was combined with his ability to pick up blitzes, catch passes coming out of the backfield, and of course run. Obviously the TE Keith McKeller (the "K" in K-gun) was a big part of it too. Â The Bills continued with the tactic as a regular part of the offense in 1991. Â The Colts and others have run successful no-huddle offenses. Elway was also a master of the two-minuite drill. What seperated Buffalo's offense was their ability to incorporate it on a fairly regular basis, not just as an occasional gimmick or changeup. Â I may be biased, but I've never seen it executed with the level of efficiency with which the early 1990s Bills worked it.
zazie Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Um, yeah, that pretty much covers it. Except for the fact that the Bengals' version -- the "sugar" huddle in particular -- was willfully designed to catch the defense with too many men on the field if they tried to substitute. That's why Levy complained to the league, and he was right. The K-Gun didn't need chicanery; with three Hall of Famers (and counting) on the field, they merely ran the defense ragged.  Oh, and <bleep> Boomer. One of my favorite Bruce Smith sacks was a decleater on Norman, after he'd moved on to the Jets. Anyone have some video of this sack?
VOR Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 exactly, they had bruce rated as the #4 pass rusher! he was good enough for #2 at least He's the #1 DE. Had he played in a 4-3 his entire career, he'd probably have had 250 sacks at least. I just wish the Bills had had a true NT, otherwise they'd have won at least a SB.
Lori Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Good stuff, Dave. I'll add one short note: while the 1990 Philly game is generally considered the K-Gun's official unveiling, they actually began the season opener against Indy with it, forcing the Colts to burn a quick timeout while they were trying to figure out what hit 'em. The drive stalled after that and the Bills were held to a Norwood FG, but the seeds had been sown. Â From The Buffalo Bills and the Almost-Dream Season: "That's my kind of football," said an excited Kelly, who called his own plays during the no-huddle. "It's something you haven't seen very much before, but Ted (Marchibroda) has confidence in me and the receivers and the offensive line so it probably won't be the last time you'll see it."
Thurman#1 Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 couldnt disagree more with that statement...did you even watch Jim Kelly play   Thank you. Stole the words right from my mouth.
vincec Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 The Bengals version and Bills version are only connected because of their close proximity in history, otherwise there's really no connection. They were two different things. AS pointed out previously, the Bengals employed a "sugar" huddle, though legal, was not within the spirit of the game. It was a sneaky way to keep the defense confused about the offensive personnel. The offense would have too many men in the huddle before the excess players ran to the sidelines, thereby preventing a defensive substitution and hopefully creating mismatches. Yes, Marv (and others) cried foul, and the rules were subsequently changed to make the tactic illegal by NFL rules.  The Bills, on the other hand, kept the same personnel on the field. There was no trickery involved. It was built on the premis of creating mis-matches with it's superior skill players at an accelerated pace. It was a fast break offense that evolved after O-coordinator Ted Marchibroda noticed how efficient the Bills offense had been in two-minute drill situations. With Kelly acting as field general, the team seemingly moved the chains at will. This was first detected in the 1990 season, and (IIRC) officially unveiled against the Eagles in the 12th game of the season. Levy always credited it's success to the talents of the personnel rather than the system. Thurman's superior knowledge of the offense was combined with his ability to pick up blitzes, catch passes coming out of the backfield, and of course run. Obviously the TE Keith McKeller (the "K" in K-gun) was a big part of it too.  The Bills continued with the tactic as a regular part of the offense in 1991.  The Colts and others have run successful no-huddle offenses. Elway was also a master of the two-minuite drill. What seperated Buffalo's offense was their ability to incorporate it on a fairly regular basis, not just as an occasional gimmick or changeup.  I may be biased, but I've never seen it executed with the level of efficiency with which the early 1990s Bills worked it. This sums up my opinion also. The Bengals O was not the same as the no-huddle. They didn't even call it that. And, as was mentioned in an earlier post, there is no "next level" to the no huddle. The overuse of that term is ridiculous.
ChasBB Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Marchibroda was the man and the KGun was never the same after he left the Bills ran a more faced paced version then the Bengals or the Colts Marchibroda=most underrated coach in Bills history. He was the genius behind the Super Bowl runs. Marv was more of a figurehead -- did his job well -- kept the team focused, etc., but Marchibroda was the reason for the offensive success. I hated to see him leave, but I think he was tired of existing in Marv's shadow and not getting the full credit deserved.
Lori Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Marchibroda=most underrated coach in Bills history. He was the genius behind the Super Bowl runs. Marv was more of a figurehead -- did his job well -- kept the team focused, etc., but Marchibroda was the reason for the offensive success. I hated to see him leave, but I think he was tired of existing in Marv's shadow and not getting the full credit deserved. I don't think it was an ego thing. He'd been a head coach before, and was probably just waiting for another chance. You're right, though -- the K-Gun was at its absolute best when he was here.
Big Turk Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 couldnt disagree more with that statement...did you even watch Jim Kelly play  Jim Kelly was a LB in a QB's body...that is the dumbest thing I have read in a long time...Kelly would rock Manning if he hit him...
The Jokeman Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Jim Kelly was a LB in a QB's body...that is the dumbest thing I have read in a long time...Kelly would rock Manning if he hit him... True but if had my choice of QBs I'd take Peyton Manning over Jimbo most Sundays.
bisonbrigade Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Bengals invented the no-huddle. Bills invented the hurry up no-huddle. Colts just copied both.
VOR Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 True but if had my choice of QBs I'd take Peyton Manning over Jimbo most Sundays. I'd take Jimbo in a dome with the rules that have pussifed the QB position and favored offenses.
The Jokeman Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 I'd take Jimbo in a dome with the rules that have pussifed the QB position and favored offenses. I prefer a play it safe type in the Manning mold then the gunslinger Jimbo mentality. To me Jimbo compares to Brett Favre in the modern NFL.
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