PromoTheRobot Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 Not exactly, but Gary Anderson sticks in my mind as a major screwup release too soon. Who'd have thought he'd do what he did after missing every FG in preseason. We cut a DB named King who went on to become a solid player for Tennessee. Shayne Graham was another Bills kicker we cut loose. But I can't think of any OTA cut that did squat, despite Big Daddy JC's pithy rejoinder. PTR
Big Daddy JC Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 Waiving Joel Bell seems pretty shocking to me. But then maybe all the positive stories about him were just due to his interesting history. Big daddy, do you know any more about Joel and why this might have happened? You were a big Joel Bell fan. Are you a Furman alum or friend of the family? I just wondered if you might have any insight on this. Joel seemed like a guy that could be developed in a couple years, but the coaches must have seen some show-stopper in his game, something that made even taking him to training camp a moot point. I'm still a big Joel Bell fan and am waiting to see who he catches on with. I spotted him in '07 when he played against my team (Clemson) and was a stone wall. I then caught a game on ESPN Classic from '06 between Furman and UNC where he threw DE's around like rag dolls. I made it a point to see the '08 game between Furman and Va Tech, same results. I admit that after reading his bio I picked him as my diamond in the rough to track. I don't think the coaches saw anything that was a "show-stopper". I think it was a numbers thing where to many experienced back-ups squeezed out the UDFA. Still, I believe this is a decision that will haunt the Bills. One question I ask is are these experienced back-ups the future of the team or is it the player who needs some development but has a huge up side?
Big Daddy JC Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 I didn't think I was being a jerk with this post but maybe I missed something. I'd love to see you list of Bills camp cuts that went on to long NFL careers. It must be a long one for you to write a snarky post llike this. PTR Other than the players already listed here are a few others: 2001 6th rd. Jimmy Williams- DB 4 yrs w/ 49ers, 2 yrs w/ Seahawks 1988 10th rd. Martin Mayhew- DB 4yrs w/ Redskins, 4yrs w/ Bucks and my favorite... 1982 7th rd. Gary Anderson- K ’82-94 w/ Steelers, ’95-96 w/ Eagles, ’97 49ers, ’98-02 Vikings, ’03-04 Titans These don't even take into account the players who were Bills for 1-2 yrs and then played for other teams for 4-8 more years. Every team has a similar list but the SB contenders spend the time to polish the diamonds in the rough rather than tossing them out while looking for a quick fix.
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 Other than the players already listed here are a few others: 2001 6th rd. Jimmy Williams- DB 4 yrs w/ 49ers, 2 yrs w/ Seahawks 1988 10th rd. Martin Mayhew- DB 4yrs w/ Redskins, 4yrs w/ Bucks and my favorite... 1982 7th rd. Gary Anderson- K ’82-94 w/ Steelers, ’95-96 w/ Eagles, ’97 49ers, ’98-02 Vikings, ’03-04 Titans These don't even take into account the players who were Bills for 1-2 yrs and then played for other teams for 4-8 more years. Every team has a similar list but the SB contenders spend the time to polish the diamonds in the rough rather than tossing them out while looking for a quick fix. That is one sorry excuse for a list
Big Daddy JC Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 That is one sorry excuse for a list What list would you like thats better than throwing away a player who produced in the NFL for 23 years!
DazedandConfused Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 I'm still a big Joel Bell fan and am waiting to see who he catches on with. I spotted him in '07 when he played against my team (Clemson) and was a stone wall. I then caught a game on ESPN Classic from '06 between Furman and UNC where he threw DE's around like rag dolls. I made it a point to see the '08 game between Furman and Va Tech, same results. I admit that after reading his bio I picked him as my diamond in the rough to track. I don't think the coaches saw anything that was a "show-stopper". I think it was a numbers thing where to many experienced back-ups squeezed out the UDFA. Still, I believe this is a decision that will haunt the Bills. One question I ask is are these experienced back-ups the future of the team or is it the player who needs some development but has a huge up side? It certainly appeared to me on the face of it demographically that Bell appeared to be amazing physical specimen who admit it or not showed well against lower level talent and came from a collegiate program where the likelihood struck me that he was almost certainly probably two years and at least one from being able to make an NFL roster. The thing which gave me interesting pause was that I think the Bills signed him to a two year contract when the norm for a UDFA like him would have been a one year make good or goodbye deal. My GUESS was that the 2 year deal rather than being some sign he would make the roster was that this rookie was clearly a project who needed at least two years of practice before he would make the roster. It was a compliment to his size and athleticism that they gave him an extra year than the norm but this was more likely a clear sign they did not see him helping out. The early cut then might be best explained by the Bills coaches and braintrust already deciding they had erred in their decision to develop him, but be better explained by the Bills assuring him he would be a good project, but that though the Bills still had a solid interest in him they would maximize their chances of no one poaching him from the Bills ownership would if they had a never even had him play pre-season by cutting him before anyone saw he was going to be rehired pn the PS. The Bills would have to risk him being hired by someone else when he dd get cut, but if they assured him he would be signed by the Bills as soon as they could they actually might be able to park him and get him signed as quick as they can,
djcalvin79 Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Other than the players already listed here are a few others: 2001 6th rd. Jimmy Williams- DB 4 yrs w/ 49ers, 2 yrs w/ Seahawks 1988 10th rd. Martin Mayhew- DB 4yrs w/ Redskins, 4yrs w/ Bucks and my favorite... 1982 7th rd. Gary Anderson- K ’82-94 w/ Steelers, ’95-96 w/ Eagles, ’97 49ers, ’98-02 Vikings, ’03-04 Titans These don't even take into account the players who were Bills for 1-2 yrs and then played for other teams for 4-8 more years. Every team has a similar list but the SB contenders spend the time to polish the diamonds in the rough rather than tossing them out while looking for a quick fix. for a team that hasn't made the playoffs in a decade, what makes you think we have the time or inclination to start polishing diamonds pulled out of a goat's a$$?? it's kinda hard to be a SB contender without even reaching the playoffs first!
Big Daddy JC Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 for a team that hasn't made the playoffs in a decade, what makes you think we have the time or inclination to start polishing diamonds pulled out of a goat's a$$?? it's kinda hard to be a SB contender without even reaching the playoffs first! That statement proves that something's got to change. Read carefully the last sentece of my post: "Every team has a similar list but the SB contenders spend the time to polish the diamonds in the rough rather than tossing them out while looking for a quick fix." The definition of insanity is to continue doing what you have been doing and expecting a different result. The way to become a winner is to watch what winners do and emulate there practices.
PromoTheRobot Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Other than the players already listed here are a few others: 2001 6th rd. Jimmy Williams- DB 4 yrs w/ 49ers, 2 yrs w/ Seahawks 1988 10th rd. Martin Mayhew- DB 4yrs w/ Redskins, 4yrs w/ Bucks and my favorite... 1982 7th rd. Gary Anderson- K ’82-94 w/ Steelers, ’95-96 w/ Eagles, ’97 49ers, ’98-02 Vikings, ’03-04 Titans These don't even take into account the players who were Bills for 1-2 yrs and then played for other teams for 4-8 more years. Every team has a similar list but the SB contenders spend the time to polish the diamonds in the rough rather than tossing them out while looking for a quick fix. Wow. So according to your list, the Bills miss one player about every 10 years. Real hall-of-famers too. No wonder your panties are in such a knot. Also these are all players the Bills drafted and brought to camp. How about the dozens of OTA castoffs like Joel Bell who go on to become SB MVPs? Where's that list? Remember you jumped all over me over Bell. PTR
Matt in KC Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Other than the players already listed here are a few others: 2001 6th rd. Jimmy Williams- DB 4 yrs w/ 49ers, 2 yrs w/ Seahawks 1988 10th rd. Martin Mayhew- DB 4yrs w/ Redskins, 4yrs w/ Bucks and my favorite... 1982 7th rd. Gary Anderson- K ’82-94 w/ Steelers, ’95-96 w/ Eagles, ’97 49ers, ’98-02 Vikings, ’03-04 Titans These don't even take into account the players who were Bills for 1-2 yrs and then played for other teams for 4-8 more years. Every team has a similar list but the SB contenders spend the time to polish the diamonds in the rough rather than tossing them out while looking for a quick fix. So now let's compare this to the list where the Bills made the right decision, to see their success rate. Or, we could compare this to other teams to see if the Bills do better or worse.... I think it's nothing to get at all worked up over, but I also usually have a player or two I'm pulling for to make the team, and usually am disappointed when they get cut. (This year my equivalent is I'm pulling for Byrd, hoping he can crack the starting line up.)
zazie Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 So now let's compare this to the list where the Bills made the right decision, to see their success rate. Or, we could compare this to other teams to see if the Bills do better or worse.... I think it's nothing to get at all worked up over, but I also usually have a player or two I'm pulling for to make the team, and usually am disappointed when they get cut. (This year my equivalent is I'm pulling for Byrd, hoping he can crack the starting line up.) Why draft Everette Brown when you can get a Joel Bell for free??? Would be great if Byrd stars right away; more likely not though since he has to learn a position he has never played. And due to that strange graduation rule, he is already behind in that process.
Big Daddy JC Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Wow. So according to your list, the Bills miss one player about every 10 years. Real hall-of-famers too. No wonder your panties are in such a knot. Also these are all players the Bills drafted and brought to camp. How about the dozens of OTA castoffs like Joel Bell who go on to become SB MVPs? Where's that list? Remember you jumped all over me over Bell. PTR These are 3 players I found with very little trouble along with the ones listed by others on this thread. Conservatively we can estimate that the Bills have thrown away 1 quality player every 5 years. What difference would that make? Take Anderson for example, he played from '82-04. In that 23 year period how many games did the Bills loose? If those games were added to the win column through the contributions of this cast-off with a career 80% accuracy and a career long of 55yards, how would that have affected the Bills records? How many years would they have made the playoffs? How many times would they have had home field advantage? Would they have advanced further? Now don't start whining for me to answer for you. This is your homework, time to get off the lazy dismissals and start looking objectively at the performance of the team you root for. After you have examined the impact of this 1 diamond in the rough would have had on the team, begin to consider the added impact of the other players (1 every 5 yrs est.) especially if 1 or 2 of them are still playing when the next diamond is polished and begins to shine. Then you will realize the secret of consistent SB contenders. As to the case of Bell in particular, this is an obvious example of casting off a big (6-8, 318) diamond without exerting even a little elbow grease. Again: the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over but expecting a different result. If you are satisfied with going 7-9 eternally, don't bother with the homework just keep following blindly.
zazie Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 These are 3 players I found with very little trouble along with the ones listed by others on this thread. Conservatively we can estimate that the Bills have thrown away 1 quality player every 5 years. What difference would that make? Take Anderson for example, he played from '82-04. In that 23 year period how many games did the Bills loose? If those games were added to the win column through the contributions of this cast-off with a career 80% accuracy and a career long of 55yards, how would that have affected the Bills records? How many years would they have made the playoffs? How many times would they have had home field advantage? Would they have advanced further? Now don't start whining for me to answer for you. This is your homework, time to get off the lazy dismissals and start looking objectively at the performance of the team you root for. After you have examined the impact of this 1 diamond in the rough would have had on the team, begin to consider the added impact of the other players (1 every 5 yrs est.) especially if 1 or 2 of them are still playing when the next diamond is polished and begins to shine. Then you will realize the secret of consistent SB contenders. As to the case of Bell in particular, this is an obvious example of casting off a big (6-8, 318) diamond without exerting even a little elbow grease. Again: the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over but expecting a different result. If you are satisfied with going 7-9 eternally, don't bother with the homework just keep following blindly. Prediction: Joel Bell will have a new job already tomorrow and stick to that new teams PS I wtill believe Demetrious Bell may have a better career due to his pedigree, but, it is a crapshoot. THis cut seems pre-mature. Smart and big and fast. Why can't he be coached up a little. Oh yeah, we have sh**ty coaches. Likely the best thing that could have happened to Joel, now he has a chance to get some real coaching somewhere else.
Lurker Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Take Anderson for example, he played from '82-04. No offense, but are you old enough to remember the training camp Anderson had his rookie year? That was a very easy cut to make, as he was nowhere near NFL-ready. The Bills were in a no-win position as there was no practice squad in those days and he was not good enough to carry (no matter what he turned into after leaving Buffalo). I can't figure out the Bell situation, unless there was some sense on Joel's part that the NFL was just not what he wanted.
BillsWatch Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Joel Bell hasn't been picked up by some other team's 80 man roster, has he? Perhaps he is just not ready for NFL training camp yet. Maybe Cowboys will give him a call and he can go practice for team he watched in Europe.
Big Daddy JC Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 No offense, but are you old enough to remember the training camp Anderson had his rookie year? That was a very easy cut to make, as he was nowhere near NFL-ready. The Bills were in a no-win position as there was no practice squad in those days and he was not good enough to carry (no matter what he turned into after leaving Buffalo). I can't figure out the Bell situation, unless there was some sense on Joel's part that the NFL was just not what he wanted. You are correct in that I didn't see Anderson in training camp. Something must have changed when the Steelers picked him up for the regular season. He went 10-12 with a long of 48 yds and 22-22 in PATs. I have no idea what happened between camp and reg season but the Steelers obviously saw something the Bills didn't. As for J. Bell's motivation, I don't see that as the issue. He has the small school chip on his shoulder. I think the coaching staff was so concerned with the # of rookie linemen they were carrying (including projected starters) that they didn't want to risk a back up roster spot on a small school UDFA. It looks like a timid safety pick situation to me. I guess we'll learn more as the season progresses.
Kelly the Dog Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 No offense, but are you old enough to remember the training camp Anderson had his rookie year? That was a very easy cut to make, as he was nowhere near NFL-ready. The Bills were in a no-win position as there was no practice squad in those days and he was not good enough to carry (no matter what he turned into after leaving Buffalo). IIRC, Anderson missed something like his first five (or all five) kicks in pre-season. He was way worse than terrible. So it's easy to say that it was an easy cut, and they had Nick Mike-Mayer (although he sucked). But, also IIRC, the Steelers signed him within 2-3 days and made him their kicker without a tryout knowing that he was that good from their scouting. He was 10-12 as a rookie.
BillsWatch Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 There was a lot of speculation at the time in press that Anderson decided to shank kicks because he did not want to play for Buffalo and his agent had contact with other teams. Sorry no links since there was very limited internet at time. UDFA does not apply anyways since he was drafted by Bills.
Kelly the Dog Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 There was a lot of speculation at the time in press that Anderson decided to shank kicks because he did not want to play for Buffalo and his agent had contact with other teams. Sorry no links since there was very limited internet at time. UDFA does not apply anyways since he was drafted by Bills. I did hear a bit of those rumors but I found it very hard to believe since he was a seventh round draft pick (so it's not like he was absolute sure thing or would get a job) and the Bills were one of the top teams in the entire NFL the previous two years. If he went to a dome team or a warm weather city perhaps I might buy it a little easier, but I never really heard any reasonable source or argument for that.
spartacus Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 No offense, but are you old enough to remember the training camp Anderson had his rookie year? That was a very easy cut to make, as he was nowhere near NFL-ready. The Bills were in a no-win position as there was no practice squad in those days and he was not good enough to carry (no matter what he turned into after leaving Buffalo). I can't figure out the Bell situation, unless there was some sense on Joel's part that the NFL was just not what he wanted. no-where near NFL ready??? Gary Anderson was another casualty of the standard crap pulled by the Bills front office. They low balled him on his contract -so he tanked pre-season on purpose to get his release - thus getting a fair market deal with a perennial playoff team- where he was their kicker from day 1.
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