who HASNT been tasered?

[ExiledInIllinois]

No I haven't but I am curious what his opinion would be. He usually sides with the police officer but you can tell when he doesn't like something. I tend to side with the police more often than not myself.

 

Same here. I would hope your father would fall on the side of selfless service to others also. Hard not to worry about the wife and familia... Every single family has to be in-line with those ideals... Very hard to do in a more and more selfish society. Education helps and is the key. I do admit, it isn't just a "blue collar" trap... Yet, a selfish mentality does pervade the trades in different ways... Main, IMO because of the lower pay.

[PushthePile]

Here's a little law enforcement lesson for you, PTP. LEOs follow what is called a "use of force matrix". This determines at which level of resistance certain forms of control can be used. What the old lady did here is called "active physical resistance". She used muscle groups to resist the officer (pushing him away, walking away, etc). Even under the most liberal agency policies, the taser is a warranted response to this type of resistance. Some agencies allow it to be used at the "passive physical resistance" level.

 

Next, refusing to sign a citation IS A CRIME in most states, including Texas. By her refusing to sign the ticket, even after he told her that it wasn't an admission of guilt, she committed a crime. Now, he has informed her that she is under arrest. Regardless of if she is in handcuffs at this point, she is under arrest. Her sudden change of heart ("give me the bleeping ticket. I'll sign it") doesn't matter. What happens when a bank robber walks into a bank and sticks a gun in someone's face while demanding money. The cops show up and bust the guy. He says "oh, I didn't mean it". Does he get let go? She made the choice, he arrested her, and now its too late to go back.

 

As has been pointed out numerous times, the taser is the best option in this case. Physical techniques that could have been employed by the officer would have undoubtedly resulted in injury to the woman. As LEOs, we don't train to not hurt someone else. We train to keep ourselves from getting hurt. Regardless of what you think, PTP, putting a non-compliant individual in cuffs (old, young, short, fat, etc) is much tougher than you think. She would have ended up proned on the ground with her face in the dirt, no doubt. This is the best way to make sure that he wasn't doing the Texas two-step with her on the side of a busy highway.

 

Lastly, I am glad that you don't make my agency's policy. I could not do my job if I had to be in imminent physical danger before I could employ a non-lethal tool such as the taser. BTW - When someone presents a weapon, they are probably going to end up shot by the po-po. I know this is appalling to those of you who are the "why don't you talk to them first" type...

You make some good points and some bad ones as well. Believe me, I'm not the passive aggressive type you think I am. That clown, VAbills tried to throw around the old "have you ever held a weapon in a hostile environment" crap. The answer is yes. In fact, I have had to zip tie many detainees who didn't want to be detained. It can be difficult and physically taxing. I don't buy for a second the underlined statement. I have never handcuffed a 72 year old women but as I said before, I have snagged up plenty of young angry men. If I can manage to safely subdue these young men, why is it so difficult to safely subdue this women?

 

For starters, common sense would tell you not to pick her up and body slam her. You wouldn't want to land on her with your entire body weight. This is all assuming she is still not a real threat. I'd say a simple arm lock and the old come with me walk to the car would be fine. It has worked for years. If this 72 year old women still finds a way to out muscle this cop, I'd say a little pepper spray to the face is a better option. This would allow the 200 plus pound cop the advantage he needs to cuff the 72 year old women. The taser has already killed people and is also not exactly pacemaker friendly. Besides as I said before, do you really want a 72 year old women dropping like a bag of rocks on the side of the highway? I just think the use of the taser should be more limited than it is.

[PushthePile]

Same here. I would hope your father would fall on the side of selfless service to others also. Hard not to worry about the wife and familia... Every single family has to be in-line with those ideals... Very hard to do in a more and more selfish society. Education helps and is the key. I do admit, it isn't just a "blue collar" trap... Yet, a selfish mentality does pervade the trades in different ways... Main, IMO because of the lower pay.

In a rare moment of irritation, my father said the officer had a dozen other options that would have been better. He said that the officer was probably within his right to use the taser but he couldn't think of anyone he had worked with who would have. He obviously didn't know the departments specific SOPS but felt this guy likely had nice chat with his captain behind closed doors.

 

Now, his word isn't law just because he is retired law enforcement but it does provide an example of a cop who viewed it on the other side.

[Guest dog14787]

In a rare moment of irritation, my father said the officer had a dozen other options that would have been better. He said that the officer was probably within his right to use the taser but he couldn't think of anyone he had worked with who would have. He obviously didn't know the departments specific SOPS but felt this guy likely had nice chat with his captain behind closed doors.

 

Now, his word isn't law just because he is retired law enforcement but it does provide an example of a cop who viewed it on the other side.

 

 

Thanks Push, I regard your Dads opinion very highly, more than my own in fact and if he thinks it should and could have been avoided, then it should have been avoided. Plus, Like your Dad said, the officer probably did have a nice friendly chat with his captain afterward and it won't ever happen again, just for public relations sake.

 

The officer may have been within his rights , but allot of negative publicity went along with his actions and we sure don't need the general public at odds with the Law Enforcement agencies that are meant to protect them.

[Sig1Hunter]

If I can manage to safely subdue these young men, why is it so difficult to safely subdue this women?

 

For starters, common sense would tell you not to pick her up and body slam her. You wouldn't want to land on her with your entire body weight. This is all assuming she is still not a real threat. I'd say a simple arm lock and the old come with me walk to the car would be fine. It has worked for years. If this 72 year old women still finds a way to out muscle this cop, I'd say a little pepper spray to the face is a better option. This would allow the 200 plus pound cop the advantage he needs to cuff the 72 year old women. The taser has already killed people and is also not exactly pacemaker friendly. Besides as I said before, do you really want a 72 year old women dropping like a bag of rocks on the side of the highway? I just think the use of the taser should be more limited than it is.

 

I see your point, but I think you are wrong.

 

It goes back to the old phrase "Train how you fight, fight how you train". We don't train to take it easy on people on the offchance that we may have to take down grandma. When the fecal matter hits the oscillating rotator, we revert to how we were trained. If we trained to take it easy on people, we will take it easy on someone who needs not be taken lightly. This causes the death of law enforcement officers. When we take someone to the ground, they are taken to the ground. There is no such thing as a "go easy on them" move.

 

My point about grandma being hurt stems from a likelihood that her bones and connective tissues are more fragile. Usually, when you slam a non compliant younger adult this is not the case.

 

And, about pepper spray. Have you ever been pepper sprayed? Have you ever been tased? The effects of [epper spray are longer lasting than the taser. The tasers effects are done immediately afterward. The spray lasts for hours and hours, and requires medical attention. Spray causes severe irritation of the mucous membranes, including respiratory distress. Not to mention everyone in the area becomes exposed to the spray when it is deployed - this includes the officer. Additionally, in my experience, spray usually only makes the person more angry and willing to fight. I rarely see it actually de-escalate a situation. Do I want to be rolling around with anyone, grandma or not, on the side of the road when my eyelids are slammed shut and I am having a hard time breathing because of the spray? The short answer is no. The vast, vast, vast majority of documented deaths from the taser are a result of drug intoxication (specifically stimulant usage).

 

The public, along with the media, try and try to dispute the taser. The vast majority of the public are uneducated about it, with the little education they do have coming from the media. As humans, we fear what we do not understand.

 

PS - It absolutely turns my stomach to hear ignorant people monday morning quarterbacking a police officer doing his job. He had seconds to make decisions, and the public has days/weeks/months to tear them apart. I understand this is part of the job, and I accept it. I just wish that more members of the public understood before trying to stand in judgement of an officer that is doing his job.

[PushthePile]

I see your point, but I think you are wrong.

 

It goes back to the old phrase "Train how you fight, fight how you train". We don't train to take it easy on people on the offchance that we may have to take down grandma. When the fecal matter hits the oscillating rotator, we revert to how we were trained. If we trained to take it easy on people, we will take it easy on someone who needs not be taken lightly. This causes the death of law enforcement officers. When we take someone to the ground, they are taken to the ground. There is no such thing as a "go easy on them" move.

 

My point about grandma being hurt stems from a likelihood that her bones and connective tissues are more fragile. Usually, when you slam a non compliant younger adult this is not the case.

 

And, about pepper spray. Have you ever been pepper sprayed? Have you ever been tased? The effects of [epper spray are longer lasting than the taser. The tasers effects are done immediately afterward. The spray lasts for hours and hours, and requires medical attention. Spray causes severe irritation of the mucous membranes, including respiratory distress. Not to mention everyone in the area becomes exposed to the spray when it is deployed - this includes the officer. Additionally, in my experience, spray usually only makes the person more angry and willing to fight. I rarely see it actually de-escalate a situation. Do I want to be rolling around with anyone, grandma or not, on the side of the road when my eyelids are slammed shut and I am having a hard time breathing because of the spray? The short answer is no. The vast, vast, vast majority of documented deaths from the taser are a result of drug intoxication (specifically stimulant usage).

 

The public, along with the media, try and try to dispute the taser. The vast majority of the public are uneducated about it, with the little education they do have coming from the media. As humans, we fear what we do not understand.

 

PS - It absolutely turns my stomach to hear ignorant people monday morning quarterbacking a police officer doing his job. He had seconds to make decisions, and the public has days/weeks/months to tear them apart. I understand this is part of the job, and I accept it. I just wish that more members of the public understood before trying to stand in judgement of an officer that is doing his job.

I apologize for the monday morning quarterbacking, I generally don't like to scrutinize police officers. It is a tough job and the viewing public aren't in the officers shoes. I appreciate your take on tasers and respect your opinion. We aren't going to see eye to eye on this topic but that's okay. I appreciate your service Sig and stay safe.

[PushthePile]

Thanks Push, I regard your Dads opinion very highly, more than my own in fact and if he thinks it should and could have been avoided, then it should have been avoided. Plus, Like your Dad said, the officer probably did have a nice friendly chat with his captain afterward and it won't ever happen again, just for public relations sake.

 

The officer may have been within his rights , but allot of negative publicity went along with his actions and we sure don't need the general public at odds with the Law Enforcement agencies that are meant to protect them.

No problem dog. He comes from a very experienced place with that opinion. At the same time Sig is an experienced voice on the otherside of the issue. Law Enforcement is full of gray areas.

[Guest dog14787]

No problem dog. He comes from a very experienced place with that opinion. At the same time Sig is an experienced voice on the otherside of the issue. Law Enforcement is full of gray areas.

 

 

I personally think its ignorant to believe folks shouldn't scrutinize a Cops behavior especially in a case like this and if you can't handle the scrutiny you may be in the wrong line of work.

 

Just the bad PR alone is worth changing tactics when it comes to handling the Elderly( just wait until someone has a heart attack), we are taught as a society to respect and protect our elders and then on national television we watch an old feeble lady get tasered over a speeding ticket, then listen to her cry and moan, all because she was old and grumpy. I don't know about you, but these old and grumpy folks represent a big portion of our nations population and attitude or not, in my opinion they represent it allot better then the younger generation ever will.

 

So now we have a large number of elderly folks out there with the attitude that law enforcement is treating them with disrespect, and this benefits everyone how?

 

Sig, before you go jumping all over my post I want to say I have the utmost respect for what you do, and if you look back over my past posts and I'm sure everyone will agree, I always bend more in favor of law Enforcement until or unless I'm persuaded otherwise.

 

My big problem with your post Sig is calling folks ignorant for scrutinizing something like this, especially when opinions seem to vary. If the general public is so uneducated over the process of getting tasered, the hows, whens, and whys, how about educating everyone so this doesn't happen again. Your job is not judge, jury, and executioner and in some folks minds, this is what is happening because getting tasered is allot worse to some folks then sitting in jail, so were is the justice. We can't lay a finger on a terrorist who may be trying to blow up a populated area, the White house or take out our president , but we can sure taser the crap out of an old lady for a speeding ticket, something is wrong with this picture. Someone needs to give Jack Bower a taser.

 

I also appreciate your service and stay safe.

[RkFast]

The public, along with the media, try and try to dispute the taser. The vast majority of the public are uneducated about it, with the little education they do have coming from the media. As humans, we fear what we do not understand.

 

DING! You win!

 

Most people are so "outraged" and "offended" by the taser for how it looks on grainy videos. Ya know...the person dropping to the ground and going "ow, ow, ow." People see that and they think how awful it must be. These are the same folks who watch a TV show about Alaskan crab fishing and suddenly think they, too can handle 40 foot seas working 20 hours at a clip.

[Sig1Hunter]

Sig, before you go jumping all over my post I want to say I have the utmost respect for what you do, and if you look back over my past posts and I'm sure everyone will agree, I always bend more in favor of law Enforcement until or unless I'm persuaded otherwise.

 

First of all, she wasn't tased because of the ticket. She was tased because she physically resisted the officer when he tried to handcuff her after she refused to sign the ticket and he told her she was under arrest.

 

Secondly, I am not trying to jump all over anyone's posts. Your opinions are your opinions. I am merely attempting to give some of you guys a bit of insight on the topic. When we are educated we are able to form more well thought out opinions. When we form our opinions solely on what the media feeds us, this is the definition of ignorant. Like it or not, the public in general is ignorant on these facts. Yet, these same ignorant folks are the ones lambasting this police officer and calling him all kinds of names! Look back earlier in this thread to see what I am talking about. If you are taking offense to the word "ignorant", that was not my intent. Ignorance seems to carry a negative connotation, which it needs not. It just means that people don't know. Nothing wrong with not knowing...The problem is not knowing and then sitting in judgement while not trying to learn more. We are all ignorant about various topics. I happen to be a law enforcement officer by profession, so I know about these things and have practical, hands on experience. You probably don't. Likewise, I am probably ignorant on the topics of your career. If we ever have a discussion about that, and I show my ignorance I give you permission to call me on it!

 

Thank you for your appreciation. I'm glad we can have debates while still having mutual respect. It seems to be a disappearing art, nowadays.

[Guest dog14787]

First of all, she wasn't tased because of the ticket. She was tased because she physically resisted the officer when he tried to handcuff her after she refused to sign the ticket and he told her she was under arrest.

 

Secondly, I am not trying to jump all over anyone's posts. Your opinions are your opinions. I am merely attempting to give some of you guys a bit of insight on the topic. When we are educated we are able to form more well thought out opinions. When we form our opinions solely on what the media feeds us, this is the definition of ignorant. Like it or not, the public in general is ignorant on these facts. Yet, these same ignorant folks are the ones lambasting this police officer and calling him all kinds of names! Look back earlier in this thread to see what I am talking about. If you are taking offense to the word "ignorant", that was not my intent. Ignorance seems to carry a negative connotation, which it needs not. It just means that people don't know. Nothing wrong with not knowing...The problem is not knowing and then sitting in judgement while not trying to learn more. We are all ignorant about various topics. I happen to be a law enforcement officer by profession, so I know about these things and have practical, hands on experience. You probably don't. Likewise, I am probably ignorant on the topics of your career. If we ever have a discussion about that, and I show my ignorance I give you permission to call me on it!

 

Thank you for your appreciation. I'm glad we can have debates while still having mutual respect. It seems to be a disappearing art, nowadays.

 

 

Thanks for your honesty and for giving us an inside perspective on the topic at hand. Police Officers have a very difficult job to do and I have allot of respect and admiration for all the brave men and woman who chose a career in law Enforcement.

 

I'm sure I speak for most of us when I say your opinions are very educational and much welcomed here.

[DrDawkinstein]

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/crime/ny...0,4085086.story

 

great, no one is arguing that there are plenty of times the tasers are used correctly. nor am i arguing that no one should ever be tasered.

 

the issue is with police officers falling back on the taser when it isn't needed. if there is a perception of "I can use this weapon whenever I feel like, on whoever I feel like, for any reason" then that needs to be stopped. and it's up to us, the citizens who police are supposed to be protecting, to call them on it.

 

case in point:

Police use taser on their waiter as a "joke"

[ExiledInIllinois]

great, no one is arguing that there are plenty of times the tasers are used correctly. nor am i arguing that no one should ever be tasered.

 

the issue is with police officers falling back on the taser when it isn't needed. if there is a perception of "I can use this weapon whenever I feel like, on whoever I feel like, for any reason" then that needs to be stopped. and it's up to us, the citizens who police are supposed to be protecting, to call them on it.

 

case in point:

Police use taser on their waiter as a "joke"

 

Let the cops do what they want... Give them carte blanche. Really, they will shoot themselves in the foot like all other industries have done in this country... It is the American way.

 

Then the law enforcement community will wonder why they don't get any respect. Ever wonder why people have less and less respect for them as it is... Then we can pay them 8 bucks an hour like other working slobs in this country.

 

[shrader]

Here's an interesting one:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07/2...fire/index.html

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

Looks like she got a $40,000 settlement. Moral to this story...Disrespect and disobey the cops long enough to force them to physically arrest you and wait for the taxpayer cash to roll in. Of course it helps if you can pull the "little old lady" card when your horrible behavior gets you in trouble.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Looks like she got a $40,000 settlement. Moral to this story...Disrespect and disobey the cops long enough to force them to physically arrest you and wait for the taxpayer cash to roll in. Of course it helps if you can pull the "little old lady" card when your horrible behavior gets you in trouble.

 

IMO, the cop was disrespecting her. Kinda a big difference here that we disagree on. Respect is a two-way street. It is EARNED, especially by cops. Sure one can just respect the uniform or badge... Yet, in the immortal words of Bob Marley:

 

I shot the sheriff

But I didn't shoot no deputy, oh no! Oh!

I shot the sheriff

But I didn't shoot no deputy, ooh, ooh, oo-ooh...

 

So I shot - I shot - I shot him down and I say:

If I am guilty I will pay.

[DrDawkinstein]

IMO, the cop was disrespecting her. Kinda a big difference here that we disagree on. Respect is a two-way street. It is EARNED, especially by cops. Sure one can just respect the uniform or badge... Yet, in the immortal words of Bob Marley:

 

I shot the sheriff

But I didn't shoot no deputy, oh no! Oh!

I shot the sheriff

But I didn't shoot no deputy, ooh, ooh, oo-ooh...

 

So I shot - I shot - I shot him down and I say:

If I am guilty I will pay.

 

yep, the moral here is to be learned by Cops everywhere, not the citizens.

[ExiledInIllinois]

yep, the moral here is to be learned by Cops everywhere, not the citizens.

 

 

Professionalism starts att he top!

[DrDawkinstein]

now THIS is what i call reasonable force

[Booster4324]

Looks like she got a $40,000 settlement. Moral to this story...Disrespect and disobey the cops long enough to force them to physically arrest you and wait for the taxpayer cash to roll in. Of course it helps if you can pull the "little old lady" card when your horrible behavior gets you in trouble.

 

This says far more about you than her. Congrats.