Shooting at Holocaust museum

[Chef Jim]

I gave up long ago on fixing every last grammar error on everything I type.

 

And that's why we get gems like this from CEOs of major US corporations:

 

"We're working our business (traveler) side very hard because clearly this is where we could also see a recovery much more quicker,"

 

Continental Airlines Chief Executive Larry Kellner

[IDBillzFan]

More statements by the promoter of paranoia, Rush Limbaugh, yesterday, trying a CYA to avoid blame for fanning the flames of intolerance.

 

"This guy (Von Brunn) is a leftist, if anything. This guy‘s beliefs—this guy‘s hate stems from influence that you find on the left, not on the right."

 

 

Take a look at Von Brunn's letter from his car. If you replace the hateful use of the word "Jew" with "liberal", without knowing the source you would think it was from conservative talking heads talking points:

 

“You want my weapons. This is how you‘re going to get them. Obama was created by liberals. Obama does what his liberal owners tell him to do. Liberals captured America‘s money. They control the mass media. The first amendment is abrogated.”

That's some pretty convenient editing there. You know, this could be fun. Kinda like Mad Libs.

 

Let's see. If you replace the word "Jew" with "non-union workers," without knowing the source, you would think it was talking points from Ron Gettelfinger.

 

If you replace the word "Jew" with "chicken farmers," without knowing the source, you would think it was talking points from PETA.

 

If you replace the word "Jew" with "them Jews" without knowing the source, you would think was talking points from Jeremiah Wright.

 

That's a lot of blame to pass around.

[RkFast]

More statements by the promoter of paranoia, Rush Limbaugh, yesterday, trying a CYA to avoid blame for fanning the flames of intolerance.

 

"This guy (Von Brunn) is a leftist, if anything. This guy‘s beliefs—this guy‘s hate stems from influence that you find on the left, not on the right."

 

 

Take a look at Von Brunn's letter from his car. If you replace the hateful use of the word "Jew" with "liberal", without knowing the source you would think it was from conservative talking heads talking points:

 

“You want my weapons. This is how you‘re going to get them. Obama was created by liberals. Obama does what his liberal owners tell him to do. Liberals captured America‘s money. They control the mass media. The first amendment is abrogated.”

 

Joe's gone from "stupid" to "batschtt crazy."

 

If I didnt know any better, from his irrational obsession and blaming Rush for stuff, Id think Joe wants to grab a gun, head down to Rush's place and..........

[X. Benedict]

That's some pretty convenient editing there. You know, this could be fun. Kinda like Mad Libs.

 

Let's see. If you replace the word "Jew" with "non-union workers," without knowing the source, you would think it was talking points from Ron Gettelfinger.

 

If you replace the word "Jew" with "chicken farmers," without knowing the source, you would think it was talking points from PETA.

 

If you replace the word "Jew" with "them Jews" without knowing the source, you would think was talking points from Jeremiah Wright.

 

That's a lot of blame to pass around.

 

I actually used "Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can" before you wrote this.....it's kind of fun....

 

“You want my weapons. This is how you‘re going to get them. Obama was created by Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can. Obama does what his Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can owners tell him to do. Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can captured America‘s money. They control the mass media. The first amendment is abrogated.”

[GG]

I actually used "Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can" before you wrote this.....it's kind of fun....

 

“You want my weapons. This is how you‘re going to get them. Obama was created by Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can. Obama does what his Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can owners tell him to do. Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can captured America‘s money. They control the mass media. The first amendment is abrogated.”

 

The possibilities are endless. We can make t-shirts or pavers.

 

Capri Sun made me do it.

[Alaska Darin]

I actually used "Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can" before you wrote this.....it's kind of fun....

 

“You want my weapons. This is how you‘re going to get them. Obama was created by Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can. Obama does what his Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can owners tell him to do. Del Monte Sweet Corn Cream Style in a Can captured America‘s money. They control the mass media. The first amendment is abrogated.”

[OCinBuffalo]

Thread Summary:

 

The phony, "outrage" factory that we have had to endure for the last 7.5 years or so has apparently hit the wall. When you have so many posters who usually go at each other day after day AGREEING on the obvious affectation necessary for one to post crap like this, well, it's over...just like I told Molson it would be. Sorry Molson, wrong again.

 

It's just too bad it has taken this long for some to see just how phony these people are, and that they will say literally anything, as evidenced by this thread, if they think that some how they are advancing their BS "cause".

 

Succinctly, I wouldn't be surprised if PastaJoe is praising himself right now for being "courageous" in "telling us the truth that we are 'too dumb' to see". All Joe's heroes have been doing it...essentially spewing unsubstantiated nonsense i.e. "the surge didn't work", "the war is lost", "the CIA didn't tell me"...creating an alternate reality. Then, screaming names at us like racist/warmonger/chicken hawk/homophobe/Nazi when we refuse to believe in this manufactured reality because we are still fully capable of using our own eyes, ears and brain. (I know Joe, if only we would stop doing that and listen to you, because you know what's best for us, and we are killing the planet... )

 

See the point is that these folks have long ago given up common sense and reason in favor of servile fawning and strict adherence to ideology. Why? Because common sense and reason will always lead them to taking responsibility for themselves and leading their own lives instead of having someone do it for them, and, they always lead AWAY from their ideology. Why should any of us be shocked when the avoidance of common sense and reason produce posts like these?

 

Edit: I forgot "wingnut". And, Bad Lieutenant still babbling about Timothy McViegh will probably follow this post sooner or later. I'll save us time: Bad Lieutenant, don't bother posting, just focus on your mopping...left..right...left...right...I'll leave you to it.

[murra]

Thread Summary:

 

The phony, "outrage" factory that we have had to endure for the last 7.5 years or so has apparently hit the wall. When you have so many posters who usually go at each other day after day AGREEING on the obvious affectation necessary for one to post crap like this, well, it's over...just like I told Molson it would be. Sorry Molson, wrong again.

 

It's just too bad it has taken this long for some to see just how phony these people are, and that they will say literally anything, as evidenced by this thread, if they think that some how they are advancing their BS "cause".

 

Succinctly, I wouldn't be surprised if PastaJoe is praising himself right now for being "courageous" in "telling us the truth that we are 'too dumb' to see". All Joe's heroes have been doing it...essentially spewing unsubstantiated nonsense i.e. "the surge didn't work", "the war is lost", "the CIA didn't tell me"...creating an alternate reality. Then, screaming names at us like racist/warmonger/chicken hawk/homophobe/Nazi when we refuse to believe in this manufactured reality because we are still fully capable of using our own eyes, ears and brain. (I know Joe, if only we would stop doing that and listen to you, because you know what's best for us, and we are killing the planet... )

 

See the point is that these folks have long ago given up common sense and reason in favor of servile fawning and strict adherence to ideology. Why? Because common sense and reason will always lead them to taking responsibility for themselves and leading their own lives instead of having someone do it for them, and, they always lead AWAY from their ideology. Why should any of us be shocked when the avoidance of common sense and reason produce posts like these?

 

Edit: I forgot "wingnut". And, Bad Lieutenant still babbling about Timothy McViegh will probably follow this post sooner or later. I'll save us time: Bad Lieutenant, don't bother posting, just focus on your mopping...left..right...left...right...I'll leave you to it.

 

Solid recap. You should've titled that post Forum summary though, not thread summary.

[PastaJoe]

Conservatives can't even handle the truth from FOXNews (which sounds similar to some who post here):

 

On June 10, Fox News anchor Shepard Smith said the Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting validated a recent Department of Homeland Security (DHS) report alerting law enforcement to an increased threat from "rightwing extremists," including "white supremacists." Smith said: "[T]his is a former military guy and he's gone extremist. They were warning us for a reason -- not about something political or social or anything else. ... It was a warning to us all. And it appears now that they were right." Smith also said that he's receiving "more and more frightening" emails from viewers since President Obama's election, including conspiracy theories about Obama's birth certificate. In response to Smith's remarks about the Holocaust museum shooting, several conservative media figures have attacked Smith or called for his firing from Fox News.

 

During his June 11 radio program, Rush Limbaugh said of Smith's remarks: "For liberals to now claim that the atmosphere is somehow more violently anti-Obama is simply preposterous." Limbaugh also said Smith was "whining and moaning and complaining about emails." After stating that he, too, got "vile, sick emails," Limbaugh said, "Shep, you got nothing on anybody out there."

 

In a June 10 post headlined "Please Shepard Smith Out the Door!" on the blog Atlas Shrugs, conservative blogger Pamela Geller, who has frequently promoted conspiracy theories about Obama's birth certificate, wrote of Smith -- who has also debunked the claim that in the DHS report, the Obama administration was targeting conservatives and others simply because they disagree with administration policies and proposals:

 

"How amusing that Shepard feels the need to take this opportunity to scold us for doing the job the media and schmucks like him won't do. He also took the opportunity to vouch for the DHS report on right wing extremism. You know, the one that targeted vets, tea party attendees, Jewish extremists -- as the real threats to the country. The 89 year old Nazi Von Brunn served in World War II -- are those the new terror threats? WW2 vets? Scary stupidity.

 

FOX could do so much better than this pompous elitist. If Beck proved anything, it's that if you are halfway talented, your numbers will go through the roof. Beating the competition when you're on FOX is no biggie. The competition of CNN, MSNBC et al drives people to FOX. Leading the leftwing media asshats is not the bar to beat. FOX numbers are the bar. I am sure, for example, if FOX dropped Beck into Greta's spot, he would increase their numbers at 10pm by 30%.

 

But Shep sucks. And Shep has always sucked, and it's time to get rid of the deadwood."

 

http://mediamatters.org/research/200906110030

[ieatcrayonz]

That's some pretty convenient editing there. You know, this could be fun. Kinda like Mad Libs.

 

Let's see. If you replace the word "Jew" with "non-union workers," without knowing the source, you would think it was talking points from Ron Gettelfinger.

 

If you replace the word "Jew" with "chicken farmers," without knowing the source, you would think it was talking points from PETA.

 

If you replace the word "Jew" with "them Jews" without knowing the source, you would think was talking points from Jeremiah Wright.

 

That's a lot of blame to pass around.

If you replace all the words that letter becomes the Magna Carta.

 

JOHN, by the grace of God King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and Count of Anjou, to his archbishops, bishops, abbots, earls, barons, justices, foresters, sheriffs, stewards, servants, and to all his officials and loyal subjects, Greeting.

 

 

KNOW THAT BEFORE GOD, for the health of our soul and those of our ancestors and heirs, to the honour of God, the exaltation of the holy Church, and the better ordering of our kingdom, at the advice of our reverend fathers Stephen, archbishop of Canterbury, primate of all England, and cardinal of the holy Roman Church, Henry archbishop of Dublin, William bishop of London, Peter bishop of Winchester, Jocelin bishop of Bath and Glastonbury, Hugh bishop of Lincoln, Walter Bishop of Worcester, William bishop of Coventry, Benedict bishop of Rochester, Master Pandulf subdeacon and member of the papal household, Brother Aymeric master of the knighthood of the Temple in England, William Marshal earl of Pembroke, William earl of Salisbury, William earl of Warren, William earl of Arundel, Alan de Galloway constable of Scotland, Warin Fitz Gerald, Peter Fitz Herbert, Hubert de Burgh seneschal of Poitou, Hugh de Neville, Matthew Fitz Herbert, Thomas Basset, Alan Basset, Philip Daubeny, Robert de Roppeley, John Marshal, John Fitz Hugh, and other loyal subjects:

 

+ (1) FIRST, THAT WE HAVE GRANTED TO GOD, and by this present charter have confirmed for us and our heirs in perpetuity, that the English Church shall be free, and shall have its rights undiminished, and its liberties unimpaired. That we wish this so to be observed, appears from the fact that of our own free will, before the outbreak of the present dispute between us and our barons, we granted and confirmed by charter the freedom of the Church's elections - a right reckoned to be of the greatest necessity and importance to it - and caused this to be confirmed by Pope Innocent III. This freedom we shall observe ourselves, and desire to be observed in good faith by our heirs in perpetuity.

 

TO ALL FREE MEN OF OUR KINGDOM we have also granted, for us and our heirs for ever, all the liberties written out below, to have and to keep for them and their heirs, of us and our heirs:

 

(2) If any earl, baron, or other person that holds lands directly of the Crown, for military service, shall die, and at his death his heir shall be of full age and owe a `relief', the heir shall have his inheritance on payment of the ancient scale of `relief'. That is to say, the heir or heirs of an earl shall pay £100 for the entire earl's barony, the heir or heirs of a knight l00s. at most for the entire knight's `fee', and any man that owes less shall pay less, in accordance with the ancient usage of `fees'

 

(3) But if the heir of such a person is under age and a ward, when he comes of age he shall have his inheritance without `relief' or fine.

 

(4) The guardian of the land of an heir who is under age shall take from it only reasonable revenues, customary dues, and feudal services. He shall do this without destruction or damage to men or property. If we have given the guardianship of the land to a sheriff, or to any person answerable to us for the revenues, and he commits destruction or damage, we will exact compensation from him, and the land shall be entrusted to two worthy and prudent men of the same `fee', who shall be answerable to us for the revenues, or to the person to whom we have assigned them. If we have given or sold to anyone the guardianship of such land, and he causes destruction or damage, he shall lose the guardianship of it, and it shall be handed over to two worthy and prudent men of the same `fee', who shall be similarly answerable to us.

 

(5) For so long as a guardian has guardianship of such land, he shall maintain the houses, parks, fish preserves, ponds, mills, and everything else pertaining to it, from the revenues of the land itself. When the heir comes of age, he shall restore the whole land to him, stocked with plough teams and such implements of husbandry as the season demands and the revenues from the land can reasonably bear.

 

(6) Heirs may be given in marriage, but not to someone of lower social standing. Before a marriage takes place, it shall be' made known to the heir's next-of-kin.

 

(7) At her husband's death, a widow may have her marriage portion and inheritance at once and without trouble. She shall pay nothing for her dower, marriage portion, or any inheritance that she and her husband held jointly on the day of his death. She may remain in her husband's house for forty days after his death, and within this period her dower shall be assigned to her.

 

(8) No widow shall be compelled to marry, so long as she wishes to remain without a husband. But she must give security that she will not marry without royal consent, if she holds her lands of the Crown, or without the consent of whatever other lord she may hold them of.

 

(9) Neither we nor our officials will seize any land or rent in payment of a debt, so long as the debtor has movable goods sufficient to discharge the debt. A debtor's sureties shall not be distrained upon so long as the debtor himself can discharge his debt. If, for lack of means, the debtor is unable to discharge his debt, his sureties shall be answerable for it. If they so desire, they may have the debtor's lands and rents until they have received satisfaction for the debt that they paid for him, unless the debtor can show that he has settled his obligations to them.

 

* (10) If anyone who has borrowed a sum of money from Jews dies before the debt has been repaid, his heir shall pay no interest on the debt for so long as he remains under age, irrespective of whom he holds his lands. If such a debt falls into the hands of the Crown, it will take nothing except the principal sum specified in the bond.

 

* (11) If a man dies owing money to Jews, his wife may have her dower and pay nothing towards the debt from it. If he leaves children that are under age, their needs may also be provided for on a scale appropriate to the size of his holding of lands. The debt is to be paid out of the residue, reserving the service due to his feudal lords. Debts owed to persons other than Jews are to be dealt with similarly.

 

* (12) No `scutage' or `aid' may be levied in our kingdom without its general consent, unless it is for the ransom of our person, to make our eldest son a knight, and (once) to marry our eldest daughter. For these purposes ouly a reasonable `aid' may be levied. `Aids' from the city of London are to be treated similarly.

 

+ (13) The city of London shall enjoy all its ancient liberties and free customs, both by land and by water. We also will and grant that all other cities, boroughs, towns, and ports shall enjoy all their liberties and free customs.

 

* (14) To obtain the general consent of the realm for the assessment of an `aid' - except in the three cases specified above - or a `scutage', we will cause the archbishops, bishops, abbots, earls, and greater barons to be summoned individually by letter. To those who hold lands directly of us we will cause a general summons to be issued, through the sheriffs and other officials, to come together on a fixed day (of which at least forty days notice shall be given) and at a fixed place. In all letters of summons, the cause of the summons will be stated. When a summons has been issued, the business appointed for the day shall go forward in accordance with the resolution of those present, even if not all those who were summoned have appeared.

 

* (15) In future we will allow no one to levy an `aid' from his free men, except to ransom his person, to make his eldest son a knight, and (once) to marry his eldest daughter. For these purposes only a reasonable `aid' may be levied.

 

(16) No man shall be forced to perform more service for a knight's `fee', or other free holding of land, than is due from it.

 

(17) Ordinary lawsuits shall not follow the royal court around, but shall be held in a fixed place.

 

(18) Inquests of novel disseisin, mort d'ancestor, and darrein presentment shall be taken only in their proper county court. We ourselves, or in our absence abroad our chief justice, will send two justices to each county four times a year, and these justices, with four knights of the county elected by the county itself, shall hold the assizes in the county court, on the day and in the place where the court meets.

 

(19) If any assizes cannot be taken on the day of the county court, as many knights and freeholders shall afterwards remain behind, of those who have attended the court, as will suffice for the administration of justice, having regard to the volume of business to be done.

 

(20) For a trivial offence, a free man shall be fined only in proportion to the degree of his offence, and for a serious offence correspondingly, but not so heavily as to deprive him of his livelihood. In the same way, a merchant shall be spared his merchandise, and a husbandman the implements of his husbandry, if they fall upon the mercy of a royal court. None of these fines shall be imposed except by the assessment on oath of reputable men of the neighbourhood.

 

(21) Earls and barons shall be fined only by their equals, and in proportion to the gravity of their offence.

 

(22) A fine imposed upon the lay property of a clerk in holy orders shall be assessed upon the same principles, without reference to the value of his ecclesiastical benefice.

 

(23) No town or person shall be forced to build bridges over rivers except those with an ancient obligation to do so.

 

(24) No sheriff, constable, coroners, or other royal officials are to hold lawsuits that should be held by the royal justices.

 

* (25) Every county, hundred, wapentake, and tithing shall remain at its ancient rent, without increase, except the royal demesne manors.

 

(26) If at the death of a man who holds a lay `fee' of the Crown, a sheriff or royal official produces royal letters patent of summons for a debt due to the Crown, it shall be lawful for them to seize and list movable goods found in the lay `fee' of the dead man to the value of the debt, as assessed by worthy men. Nothing shall be removed until the whole debt is paid, when the residue shall be given over to the executors to carry out the dead man s will. If no debt is due to the Crown, all the movable goods shall be regarded as the property of the dead man, except the reasonable shares of his wife and children.

 

* (27) If a free man dies intestate, his movable goods are to be distributed by his next-of-kin and friends, under the supervision of the Church. The rights of his debtors are to be preserved.

 

(28) No constable or other royal official shall take corn or other movable goods from any man without immediate payment, unless the seller voluntarily offers postponement of this.

 

(29) No constable may compel a knight to pay money for castle-guard if the knight is willing to undertake the guard in person, or with reasonable excuse to supply some other fit man to do it. A knight taken or sent on military service shall be excused from castle-guard for the period of this servlce.

 

(30) No sheriff, royal official, or other person shall take horses or carts for transport from any free man, without his consent.

 

(31) Neither we nor any royal official will take wood for our castle, or for any other purpose, without the consent of the owner.

 

(32) We will not keep the lands of people convicted of felony in our hand for longer than a year and a day, after which they shall be returned to the lords of the `fees' concerned.

 

(33) All fish-weirs shall be removed from the Thames, the Medway, and throughout the whole of England, except on the sea coast.

 

(34) The writ called precipe shall not in future be issued to anyone in respect of any holding of land, if a free man could thereby be deprived of the right of trial in his own lord's court.

 

(35) There shall be standard measures of wine, ale, and corn (the London quarter), throughout the kingdom. There shall also be a standard width of dyed cloth, russett, and haberject, namely two ells within the selvedges. Weights are to be standardised similarly.

 

(36) In future nothing shall be paid or accepted for the issue of a writ of inquisition of life or limbs. It shall be given gratis, and not refused.

 

(37) If a man holds land of the Crown by `fee-farm', `socage', or `burgage', and also holds land of someone else for knight's service, we will not have guardianship of his heir, nor of the land that belongs to the other person's `fee', by virtue of the `fee-farm', `socage', or `burgage', unless the `fee-farm' owes knight's service. We will not have the guardianship of a man's heir, or of land that he holds of someone else, by reason of any small property that he may hold of the Crown for a service of knives, arrows, or the like.

 

(38) In future no official shall place a man on trial upon his own unsupported statement, without producing credible witnesses to the truth of it.

 

+ (39) No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land.

 

+ (40) To no one will we sell, to no one deny or delay right or justice.

 

(41) All merchants may enter or leave England unharmed and without fear, and may stay or travel within it, by land or water, for purposes of trade, free from all illegal exactions, in accordance with ancient and lawful customs. This, however, does not apply in time of war to merchants from a country that is at war with us. Any such merchants found in our country at the outbreak of war shall be detained without injury to their persons or property, until we or our chief justice have discovered how our own merchants are being treated in the country at war with us. If our own merchants are safe they shall be safe too.

 

* (42) In future it shall be lawful for any man to leave and return to our kingdom unharmed and without fear, by land or water, preserving his allegiance to us, except in time of war, for some short period, for the common benefit of the realm. People that have been imprisoned or outlawed in accordance with the law of the land, people from a country that is at war with us, and merchants - who shall be dealt with as stated above - are excepted from this provision.

 

(43) If a man holds lands of any `escheat' such as the `honour' of Wallingford, Nottingham, Boulogne, Lancaster, or of other `escheats' in our hand that are baronies, at his death his heir shall give us only the `relief' and service that he would have made to the baron, had the barony been in the baron's hand. We will hold the `escheat' in the same manner as the baron held it.

 

(44) People who live outside the forest need not in future appear before the royal justices of the forest in answer to general summonses, unless they are actually involved in proceedings or are sureties for someone who has been seized for a forest offence.

 

* (45) We will appoint as justices, constables, sheriffs, or other officials, only men that know the law of the realm and are minded to keep it well.

 

(46) All barons who have founded abbeys, and have charters of English kings or ancient tenure as evidence of this, may have guardianship of them when there is no abbot, as is their due.

 

(47) All forests that have been created in our reign shall at once be disafforested. River-banks that have been enclosed in our reign shall be treated similarly.

 

* (48) All evil customs relating to forests and warrens, foresters, warreners, sheriffs and their servants, or river-banks and their wardens, are at once to be investigated in every county by twelve sworn knights of the county, and within forty days of their enquiry the evil customs are to be abolished completely and irrevocably. But we, or our chief justice if we are not in England, are first to be informed.

 

* (49) We will at once return all hostages and charters delivered up to us by Englishmen as security for peace or for loyal service.

 

* (50) We will remove completely from their offices the kinsmen of Gerard de Athée, and in future they shall hold no offices in England. The people in question are Engelard de Cigogné', Peter, Guy, and Andrew de Chanceaux, Guy de Cigogné, Geoffrey de Martigny and his brothers, Philip Marc and his brothers, with Geoffrey his nephew, and all their followers.

 

* (51) As soon as peace is restored, we will remove from the kingdom all the foreign knights, bowmen, their attendants, and the mercenaries that have come to it, to its harm, with horses and arms.

 

* (52) To any man whom we have deprived or dispossessed of lands, castles, liberties, or rights, without the lawful judgement of his equals, we will at once restore these. In cases of dispute the matter shall be resolved by the judgement of the twenty-five barons referred to below in the clause for securing the peace (§ 61). In cases, however, where a man was deprived or dispossessed of something without the lawful judgement of his equals by our father King Henry or our brother King Richard, and it remains in our hands or is held by others under our warranty, we shall have respite for the period commonly allowed to Crusaders, unless a lawsuit had been begun, or an enquiry had been made at our order, before we took the Cross as a Crusader. On our return from the Crusade, or if we abandon it, we will at once render justice in full.

 

* (53) We shall have similar respite in rendering justice in connexion with forests that are to be disafforested, or to remain forests, when these were first a-orested by our father Henry or our brother Richard; with the guardianship of lands in another person's `fee', when we have hitherto had this by virtue of a `fee' held of us for knight's service by a third party; and with abbeys founded in another person's `fee', in which the lord of the `fee' claims to own a right. On our return from the Crusade, or if we abandon it, we will at once do full justice to complaints about these matters.

 

(54) No one shall be arrested or imprisoned on the appeal of a woman for the death of any person except her husband.

 

* (55) All fines that have been given to us unjustiy and against the law of the land, and all fines that we have exacted unjustly, shall be entirely remitted or the matter decided by a majority judgement of the twenty-five barons referred to below in the clause for securing the peace (§ 61) together with Stephen, archbishop of Canterbury, if he can be present, and such others as he wishes to bring with him. If the archbishop cannot be present, proceedings shall continue without him, provided that if any of the twenty-five barons has been involved in a similar suit himself, his judgement shall be set aside, and someone else chosen and sworn in his place, as a substitute for the single occasion, by the rest of the twenty-five.

 

(56) If we have deprived or dispossessed any Welshmen of lands, liberties, or anything else in England or in Wales, without the lawful judgement of their equals, these are at once to be returned to them. A dispute on this point shall be determined in the Marches by the judgement of equals. English law shall apply to holdings of land in England, Welsh law to those in Wales, and the law of the Marches to those in the Marches. The Welsh shall treat us and ours in the same way.

 

* (57) In cases where a Welshman was deprived or dispossessed of anything, without the lawful judgement of his equals, by our father King Henry or our brother King Richard, and it remains in our hands or is held by others under our warranty, we shall have respite for the period commonly allowed to Crusaders, unless a lawsuit had been begun, or an enquiry had been made at our order, before we took the Cross as a Crusader. But on our return from the Crusade, or if we abandon it, we will at once do full justice according to the laws of Wales and the said regions.

 

* (58) We will at once return the son of Llywelyn, all Welsh hostages, and the charters delivered to us as security for the peace.

 

* (59) With regard to the return of the sisters and hostages of Alexander, king of Scotland, his liberties and his rights, we will treat him in the same way as our other barons of England, unless it appears from the charters that we hold from his father William, formerly king of Scotland, that he should be treated otherwise. This matter shall be resolved by the judgement of his equals in our court.

 

(60) All these customs and liberties that we have granted shall be observed in our kingdom in so far as concerns our own relations with our subjects. Let all men of our kingdom, whether clergy or laymen, observe them similarly in their relations with their own men.

 

* (61) SINCE WE HAVE GRANTED ALL THESE THINGS for God, for the better ordering of our kingdom, and to allay the discord that has arisen between us and our barons, and since we desire that they shall be enjoyed in their entirety, with lasting strength, for ever, we give and grant to the barons the following security:

 

The barons shall elect twenty-five of their number to keep, and cause to be observed with all their might, the peace and liberties granted and confirmed to them by this charter.

If we, our chief justice, our officials, or any of our servants offend in any respect against any man, or transgress any of the articles of the peace or of this security, and the offence is made known to four of the said twenty-five barons, they shall come to us - or in our absence from the kingdom to the chief justice - to declare it and claim immediate redress. If we, or in our absence abroad the chiefjustice, make no redress within forty days, reckoning from the day on which the offence was declared to us or to him, the four barons shall refer the matter to the rest of the twenty-five barons, who may distrain upon and assail us in every way possible, with the support of the whole community of the land, by seizing our castles, lands, possessions, or anything else saving only our own person and those of the queen and our children, until they have secured such redress as they have determined upon. Having secured the redress, they may then resume their normal obedience to us.

 

Any man who so desires may take an oath to obey the commands of the twenty-five barons for the achievement of these ends, and to join with them in assailing us to the utmost of his power. We give public and free permission to take this oath to any man who so desires, and at no time will we prohibit any man from taking it. Indeed, we will compel any of our subjects who are unwilling to take it to swear it at our command.

 

If-one of the twenty-five barons dies or leaves the country, or is prevented in any other way from discharging his duties, the rest of them shall choose another baron in his place, at their discretion, who shall be duly sworn in as they were.

 

In the event of disagreement among the twenty-five barons on any matter referred to them for decision, the verdict of the majority present shall have the same validity as a unanimous verdict of the whole twenty-five, whether these were all present or some of those summoned were unwilling or unable to appear.

 

The twenty-five barons shall swear to obey all the above articles faithfully, and shall cause them to be obeyed by others to the best of their power.

 

We will not seek to procure from anyone, either by our own efforts or those of a third party, anything by which any part of these concessions or liberties might be revoked or diminished. Should such a thing be procured, it shall be null and void and we will at no time make use of it, either ourselves or through a third party.

 

* (62) We have remitted and pardoned fully to all men any ill-will, hurt, or grudges that have arisen between us and our subjects, whether clergy or laymen, since the beginning of the dispute. We have in addition remitted fully, and for our own part have also pardoned, to all clergy and laymen any offences committed as a result of the said dispute between Easter in the sixteenth year of our reign (i.e. 1215) and the restoration of peace.

 

In addition we have caused letters patent to be made for the barons, bearing witness to this security and to the concessions set out above, over the seals of Stephen archbishop of Canterbury, Henry archbishop of Dublin, the other bishops named above, and Master Pandulf.

 

* (63) IT IS ACCORDINGLY OUR WISH AND COMMAND that the English Church shall be free, and that men in our kingdom shall have and keep all these liberties, rights, and concessions, well and peaceably in their fulness and entirety for them and their heirs, of us and our heirs, in all things and all places for ever.

 

Both we and the barons have sworn that all this shall be observed in good faith and without deceit. Witness the abovementioned people and many others.

 

Given by our hand in the meadow that is called Runnymede, between Windsor and Staines, on the fifteenth day of June in the seventeenth year of our reign (i.e. 1215: the new regnal year began on 28 May).

 

See. I'm not sure what this proves but clearly the guy was a little bit too anglo.

[Alaska Darin]

Conservatives can't even handle the truth from FOXNews (which sounds similar to some who post here):

 

On June 10, Fox News anchor Shepard Smith said the Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting validated a recent Department of Homeland Security (DHS) report alerting law enforcement to an increased threat from "rightwing extremists," including "white supremacists." Smith said: "[T]his is a former military guy and he's gone extremist. They were warning us for a reason -- not about something political or social or anything else. ... It was a warning to us all. And it appears now that they were right." Smith also said that he's receiving "more and more frightening" emails from viewers since President Obama's election, including conspiracy theories about Obama's birth certificate. In response to Smith's remarks about the Holocaust museum shooting, several conservative media figures have attacked Smith or called for his firing from Fox News.

 

During his June 11 radio program, Rush Limbaugh said of Smith's remarks: "For liberals to now claim that the atmosphere is somehow more violently anti-Obama is simply preposterous." Limbaugh also said Smith was "whining and moaning and complaining about emails." After stating that he, too, got "vile, sick emails," Limbaugh said, "Shep, you got nothing on anybody out there."

 

In a June 10 post headlined "Please Shepard Smith Out the Door!" on the blog Atlas Shrugs, conservative blogger Pamela Geller, who has frequently promoted conspiracy theories about Obama's birth certificate, wrote of Smith -- who has also debunked the claim that in the DHS report, the Obama administration was targeting conservatives and others simply because they disagree with administration policies and proposals:

 

"How amusing that Shepard feels the need to take this opportunity to scold us for doing the job the media and schmucks like him won't do. He also took the opportunity to vouch for the DHS report on right wing extremism. You know, the one that targeted vets, tea party attendees, Jewish extremists -- as the real threats to the country. The 89 year old Nazi Von Brunn served in World War II -- are those the new terror threats? WW2 vets? Scary stupidity.

 

FOX could do so much better than this pompous elitist. If Beck proved anything, it's that if you are halfway talented, your numbers will go through the roof. Beating the competition when you're on FOX is no biggie. The competition of CNN, MSNBC et al drives people to FOX. Leading the leftwing media asshats is not the bar to beat. FOX numbers are the bar. I am sure, for example, if FOX dropped Beck into Greta's spot, he would increase their numbers at 10pm by 30%.

 

But Shep sucks. And Shep has always sucked, and it's time to get rid of the deadwood."

 

http://mediamatters.org/research/200906110030

That's right Joe, the "warning" so far has led to exactly ONE 89 year old man doing something. I guess that means it's time to put in an expensive program to monitor the 25 MILLION American veterans.

 

If President Bush had put out warnings that the U.S. was going to start monitoring liberal bloggers, tree huggers, etc, how would you look at that? When ANY new group takes power in this country, there are going to be idiots out there who don't like it and make threats. Most of them aren't credible. The real question is whether or not to give the government of a "Free Country" Unconstitutional powers to monitor supposedly free people. It's called fear mongering when the right does it ("Invade Iraq - they may have WMDs!) but is apparently patriotic when your gang of assclowns thinks it's OK.

 

I find it very humorous that you use idiotic/hypocritical crap like that as "proof" of a ridiculous argument. Yeah, Shep Smith agrees with you. He's such a martyr today.

[PastaJoe]

That's right Joe, the "warning" so far has led to exactly ONE 89 year old man doing something. I guess that means it's time to put in an expensive program to monitor the 25 MILLION American veterans.

 

Plus the anti-abortion shooter the week before. And it's only been 5 months into the administration. And it's not about veterans, it's about legally monitoring those anti-gov't groups who often try to recruit from the pool of retired veterans.

 

If President Bush had put out warnings that the U.S. was going to start monitoring liberal bloggers, tree huggers, etc, how would you look at that? When ANY new group takes power in this country, there are going to be idiots out there who don't like it and make threats. Most of them aren't credible. The real question is whether or not to give the government of a "Free Country" Unconstitutional powers to monitor supposedly free people. It's called fear mongering when the right does it ("Invade Iraq - they may have WMDs!) but is apparently patriotic when your gang of assclowns thinks it's OK.

 

Tree huggers, etc., didn't run to the gun shops to load up on weapons when Bush became president. It's a fact that right wing militia groups increased recruitment and membership after Obama was elected, and there was a rise in gun sales. It's a fact that the false claim of WMD in Iraq was the major selling point to get support for the invasion. And what powers are the Obama administration using that the Supreme Court has ruled as unconstitutional?

[GG]

Plus the anti-abortion shooter the week before. And it's only been 5 months into the administration. And it's not about veterans, it's about legally monitoring those anti-gov't groups who often try to recruit from the pool of retired veterans.

 

 

 

Tree huggers, etc., didn't run to the gun shops to load up on weapons when Bush became president. It's a fact that right wing militia groups increased recruitment and membership after Obama was elected, and there was a rise in gun sales. It's a fact that the false claim of WMD in Iraq was the major selling point to get support for the invasion. And what powers are the Obama administration using that the Supreme Court has ruled as unconstitutional?

 

Are you an absolute nut? Yes, there was a large increase in gun sales. But a lot of it was driven by the hysteria to many nutjobs that nutjobs like you will look to outlaw guns & ammo. From reading your posts, it's not that far fetched of a theory that nutjobs like you will set off a loose synapse on the nutjob on your opposite plane.

[PastaJoe]

Are you an absolute nut? Yes, there was a large increase in gun sales. But a lot of it was driven by the hysteria to many nutjobs that nutjobs like you will look to outlaw guns & ammo. From reading your posts, it's not that far fetched of a theory that nutjobs like you will set off a loose synapse on the nutjob on your opposite plane.

 

That's pretty weak. No rational person believes that guns and ammo will ever be outlawed, that's settled law. That's a fear tactic used by the NRA to prevent ANY reasonable legislation like Brady.

[Bad Lieutenant]

That's right Joe, the "warning" so far has led to exactly ONE 89 year old man doing something.

 

And exactly ONE right-wing extremist assassinated an abortion provider. And exactly ONE right-wing extremist was arrested for soliciting the assassination of federal judges. And exactly ONE right-wing extremist murdered several Pittsburgh cops because he believed they were coming to take his guns. But according to you we're not living in a violent right-wing zeitgeist.

 

If President Bush had put out warnings that the U.S. was going to start monitoring liberal bloggers, tree huggers, etc, how would you look at that?

 

1) Bush did issue a report on left-wing extremism but guess what? Liberals didn't throw a hissy fit and politicize it.

 

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/wp-conte...anuary-2009.pdf

 

2) If you're going to comment on the report can you at least do us the courtesy of reading the thing first? Here you go-

 

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

 

It's only 9 pages and in bullet point format so I'm sure it will only take you at least a week to finish. I'm dying to know where exactly in this report does DHS recommend that the Federal Government start monitoring conservative blogs and mainstream conservative activists.

[X. Benedict]

That's pretty weak. No rational person believes that guns and ammo will ever be outlawed, that's settled law. That's a fear tactic used by the NRA to prevent ANY reasonable legislation like Brady.

 

 

It is hard to dismiss it all as a fear tactics, they aren't all without base

Detroit, Washington, Chicago have the most restrictive handgun laws and .......well take a guess....

[GG]

And exactly ONE right-wing extremist assassinated an abortion provider. And exactly ONE right-wing extremist was arrested for soliciting the assassination of federal judges. And exactly ONE right-wing extremist murdered several Pittsburgh cops because he believed they were coming to take his guns. But according to you we're not living in a violent right-wing zeitgeist.

 

I guess the difference between right wing terrorists and left wing terrorists is that right wingers get themselves killed by the gov't agents, and don't get another chance at rehabilitation and reentry into polite academic society.

[RkFast]

Joe's railing against fanatics who are easy to manipulate and believe anything their masters tell them, yet here he is using that exact type of behavior to further his argument. He has become what he fears and what he rails against, and he doesnt even realize it.

 

Sad, actually.

 

Even MORE sad is that if the tables were turned...and lets say some left wing loon heard one of Keith Olbermann's "pro gay marriage rants" and killed a conservative judge or something.....its 10000% safe to say we wouldnt be having this discussion.

[Alaska Darin]

Joe's railing against fanatics who are easy to manipulate and believe anything their masters tell them, yet here he is using that exact type of behavior to further his argument. He has become what he fears and what he rails against, and he doesnt even realize it.

 

Sad, actually.

 

Even MORE sad is that if the tables were turned...and lets say some left wing loon heard one of Keith Olbermann's "pro gay marriage rants" and killed a conservative judge or something.....its 10000% safe to say we wouldnt be having this discussion.

Don't forget the Bad Lieutenant. Because lefties didn't get all up in arms over a politically negative cyber-terrorism report, we can ignore all the other fear mongering they did over the last 8 years (even the valid stuff, which ended up getting lost among the other drivel).

[Jim in Anchorage]

I guess the difference between right wing terrorists and left wing terrorists is that right wingers get themselves killed by the gov't agents, and don't get another chance at rehabilitation and reentry into polite academic society.

Or to hang out with the beloved senator from Illinois,now your supreme leader. Bill Ayers after all only ATTEMPTED to kill people[screwed up of course-typical liberal]