MattM Posted June 4, 2009 Author Posted June 4, 2009 First off, Fingon, having an opinion that New England drafts well is not "retarded". Insinuating that it is, however, is another issue. But all idiocy aside, I think you guys are missing my point. I'm willing to bet (admittedly, without doing the research) that most teams' rosters look this way. If half of a draft class is with a team 3 years later, it's probably a good draft. You still need to explain to me how the Patriots "suck" at drafting when their impact players at virtually every position (other than WR, which they recently started filling via free agency) came from the draft. You can throw in as many "yeah, buts" as you want, but it doesn't change that fact. Yes, I know that both Dimitroff and Pioli are gone. Yes, I know that those two had a lot of say in who New England drafted from 1999 to 2007. You claim that the Patriots "sucked" in the last 3 drafts. Well guys, Dimitroff and Pioli ran the 2007 draft, and Pioli also ran the 2008 draft, so those two would (under your argument) contribute just as heavily to the apparent "sucking" as anyone else, which kind of belies the remainder of that point. No draft that produces an impact rookie, let alone the ROTY, sucks. If New England's last 3 drafts were so bad, what does that make Buffalo's? Homerism aside, I'd take the Bills last three drafts over New England's hands down. The point about Pioli and Dimitroff is that both of those guys were (at least at one time) great personnel men and they're now gone this past season when Brace was drafted. That said, they themselves didn't do very well from 2006-8, either. I hear your argument that it's tougher to make (and make an impact on) a better team, but even with that, I don't think the Pats* have drafted well at all lately, which will come back to haunt them in the near future. Just my opinion. I think the mistake many people (including, and especially, the media) make is to base current actions not by themselves in isolation, but to instead project on those actions the results of similar actions by people in the past, to wit, "the Pats* have drafted well in the past, their current draft full of reaches must by definition then be great even though it looks like crap to me, but what do I know" instead of independently analyzing it on its face. Much easier to just do the former I suppose, but perhaps less likely to lead to correct results. Time will tell......
Fingon Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 First off, Fingon, having an opinion that New England drafts well is not "retarded". Insinuating that it is, however, is another issue. But all idiocy aside, I think you guys are missing my point. I'm willing to bet (admittedly, without doing the research) that most teams' rosters look this way. If half of a draft class is with a team 3 years later, it's probably a good draft. You still need to explain to me how the Patriots "suck" at drafting when their impact players at virtually every position (other than WR, which they recently started filling via free agency) came from the draft. You can throw in as many "yeah, buts" as you want, but it doesn't change that fact. Yes, I know that both Dimitroff and Pioli are gone. Yes, I know that those two had a lot of say in who New England drafted from 1999 to 2007. You claim that the Patriots "sucked" in the last 3 drafts. Well guys, Dimitroff and Pioli ran the 2007 draft, and Pioli also ran the 2008 draft, so those two would (under your argument) contribute just as heavily to the apparent "sucking" as anyone else, which kind of belies the remainder of that point. No draft that produces an impact rookie, let alone the ROTY, sucks. If New England's last 3 drafts were so bad, what does that make Buffalo's? Can you not read? I said NE's last few drafts have sucked, and that is true. Their earlier drafts were very good. Our last few drafts have been much better than the Patriots, and that cannot be debated. The whole point is that the Patriots cannot afford to let their good FAs go, since they have not reloaded via the draft. The fact is that the Pats have holes on defense, and your draft can't be considered good if your players don't even make the team. The draft picks the Pats cut are not landing on other teams starting rosters, either. We may not be a very good team, but a lot of the players we've drafted in the last few years could start on the Pats. Also, when did i say anything about Dimitroff and Pioli?
thebandit27 Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 Can you not read? I said NE's last few drafts have sucked, and that is true. Their earlier drafts were very good. Our last few drafts have been much better than the Patriots, and that cannot be debated. The whole point is that the Patriots cannot afford to let their good FAs go, since they have not reloaded via the draft. The fact is that the Pats have holes on defense, and your draft can't be considered good if your players don't even make the team. The draft picks the Pats cut are not landing on other teams starting rosters, either. We may not be a very good team, but a lot of the players we've drafted in the last few years could start on the Pats. Also, when did i say anything about Dimitroff and Pioli? Funny that you question my reading ability and then ask me how Dimitroff and Pioli worked their way into my post...I think I'll let you figure that one out for yourself (it's pretty simple, go read the thread...ok, now that you're back, let's continue). Um, how exactly has Buffalo drafted better than New England? Because our draft picks became starters or role-players and New England's havent? Awesome. So our mediocre draft picks start on a below-average team, and New England's draft picks have difficulty sticking with one of the top teams in the NFL...I swear, you don't really think about this stuff, do you? Lastly, name one player from any of Buffalo's last 3 drafts that could start on New England...seriously. Shoot from the hip much, Fingon? I'll help you out here: Marshawn Lynch. Got any others? Surely you're not going to contend that Posluszny would start over either Mayo or Bruschi, right? Maybe you think Edwards has the edge over Brady...I mean, Buffalo did draft him in the 3rd round. Randy Moss? Pfft, we've got James Hardy. I know I'd prefer the combined ball-hawing, play-making abilities of Donte Whitner & Ko Simpson (4 career int. combined in 3 seasons) to those of Brandon Meriweather (4 career int. in 2 seasons). Perhaps it's everyone's favorite 7th-rounder, Steve Johnson, he'd easily supplant Wes Welker in the lineup. Maybe you've got a case with McKelvin, but Belichick himself said he considered McKelvin the weak link on the defense last year. I think I'm done now, unless of course you're going to claim that Jauron can out-coach Belichick as your next completely unfounded statement.
Fingon Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 Funny that you question my reading ability and then ask me how Dimitroff and Pioli worked their way into my post...I think I'll let you figure that one out for yourself (it's pretty simple, go read the thread...ok, now that you're back, let's continue). Um, how exactly has Buffalo drafted better than New England? Because our draft picks became starters or role-players and New England's havent? Awesome. So our mediocre draft picks start on a below-average team, and New England's draft picks have difficulty sticking with one of the top teams in the NFL...I swear, you don't really think about this stuff, do you? Lastly, name one player from any of Buffalo's last 3 drafts that could start on New England...seriously. Shoot from the hip much, Fingon? I'll help you out here: Marshawn Lynch. Got any others? Surely you're not going to contend that Posluszny would start over either Mayo or Bruschi, right? Maybe you think Edwards has the edge over Brady...I mean, Buffalo did draft him in the 3rd round. Randy Moss? Pfft, we've got James Hardy. I know I'd prefer the combined ball-hawing, play-making abilities of Donte Whitner & Ko Simpson (4 career int. combined in 3 seasons) to those of Brandon Meriweather (4 career int. in 2 seasons). Perhaps it's everyone's favorite 7th-rounder, Steve Johnson, he'd easily supplant Wes Welker in the lineup. Maybe you've got a case with McKelvin, but Belichick himself said he considered McKelvin the weak link on the defense last year. I think I'm done now, unless of course you're going to claim that Jauron can out-coach Belichick as your next completely unfounded statement. You are really this dumb, aren't you? It's no secret that the last few Patriots drafts have sucked. They have gotten 1 good player (Mayo) 1 decent player (Meriweather) and the rest aren't very good. You say that the Pats have had some of the best drafts the last few years, but the players they have picked (and subsequently released) have failed to make it even on lesser teams. So what does that tell you? It tells you that the players they have chosen are sub-standard. Maybe you should get it through your thick skull that even great teams can have bad drafts, but no.. you have Belichick's balls firmly secured in your mouth. The Patriots organization is not infallible, and they have not found the players they need in the last few drafts to simply let players like Vince Wilfork walk away. These are the players that would start on NE: Paul Posluzny would start over one of their LBs Whitner over Meriweather/Sanders McKelvin over Hobbs Then you have players like Youboty and Williams who would certainly make the roster. Youboty would probably be their nickel or 2nd corner. Not to mention Aaron Maybin would probably start at pass rushing OLB, since the Pats have no one on their roster to rush the passer. The Patriots defense has taken a very measurable hit to its performance in the last year, and this is directly related to the lack of talent gained from the draft. The Pats defense would be very average without Vince Wilfork.
thebandit27 Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 You are really this dumb, aren't you? It's no secret that the last few Patriots drafts have sucked. They have gotten 1 good player (Mayo) 1 decent player (Meriweather) and the rest aren't very good. You say that the Pats have had some of the best drafts the last few years, but the players they have picked (and subsequently released) have failed to make it even on lesser teams. So what does that tell you? It tells you that the players they have chosen are sub-standard. Maybe you should get it through your thick skull that even great teams can have bad drafts, but no.. you have Belichick's balls firmly secured in your mouth. The Patriots organization is not infallible, and they have not found the players they need in the last few drafts to simply let players like Vince Wilfork walk away. These are the players that would start on NE: Paul Posluzny would start over one of their LBs Whitner over Meriweather/Sanders McKelvin over Hobbs Then you have players like Youboty and Williams who would certainly make the roster. Youboty would probably be their nickel or 2nd corner. Not to mention Aaron Maybin would probably start at pass rushing OLB, since the Pats have no one on their roster to rush the passer. The Patriots defense has taken a very measurable hit to its performance in the last year, and this is directly related to the lack of talent gained from the draft. The Pats defense would be very average without Vince Wilfork. Fingon, your argument is officially a joke. Seriously, a complete joke. You do know we're talking about football, right? American football. You are familiar with American football, right? Here is some basic information on the game for you: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football) Now, onto my decimation of your latest farce...show me where I said that New England "had some of the best drafts the last few years", as you insinuate...the closest statement I made to that was "the Patriots draft well"...are you actually making a case here, or just being belligerent out of boredom? What world do you live in where Poz starts over either Mayo or Bruschi? Compare some stat lines: http://www.nfl.com/players/paulposluszny/p...le?id=POS250036 http://www.nfl.com/players/jerodmayo/profile?id=MAY651489 http://www.nfl.com/players/tedybruschi/profile?id=BRU812794 I do like Whitner, he's a good leader and a solid tackler, but I find it hard to believe that a guy that has 2 career interceptions would start on Belichick's defense when a no-name like James Sanders (2005 4th round pick) has enjoyed a higher level of success. I didn't realize the Eagles were in the discussion, otherwise, how would McKelvin start over Hobbs? Philadelphia traded 2 5th round picks for Hobbs during last April's draft. If you mean that McKelvin would start over either Leigh Bodden or Shawn Springs, both of whom New England signed this off-season, I sincerely doubt it. I'm curious about the Maybin point. Was it Adalius Thomas or Tully Banta-Cain that he'd start over? And on what do you base this statement? Maybin hasn't played a snap in the NFL, whereas Thomas and Banta-Cain have played on Superbowl winning defenses. You might as well give up now, Fingon, or do a better job of making stuff up, because your latest post was particularly putrid. If this thread were an NFL Films video, you'd see me on the sideline phone saying "911? Yeah, we need help on this message board, I am killing Fingon here..."
MattM Posted June 4, 2009 Author Posted June 4, 2009 Fingon, your argument is officially a joke. Seriously, a complete joke. You do know we're talking about football, right? American football. You are familiar with American football, right? Here is some basic information on the game for you: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football) Now, onto my decimation of your latest farce...show me where I said that New England "had some of the best drafts the last few years", as you insinuate...the closest statement I made to that was "the Patriots draft well"...are you actually making a case here, or just being belligerent out of boredom? What world do you live in where Poz starts over either Mayo or Bruschi? Compare some stat lines: http://www.nfl.com/players/paulposluszny/p...le?id=POS250036 http://www.nfl.com/players/jerodmayo/profile?id=MAY651489 http://www.nfl.com/players/tedybruschi/profile?id=BRU812794 I do like Whitner, he's a good leader and a solid tackler, but I find it hard to believe that a guy that has 2 career interceptions would start on Belichick's defense when a no-name like James Sanders (2005 4th round pick) has enjoyed a higher level of success. I didn't realize the Eagles were in the discussion, otherwise, how would McKelvin start over Hobbs? Philadelphia traded 2 5th round picks for Hobbs during last April's draft. If you mean that McKelvin would start over either Leigh Bodden or Shawn Springs, both of whom New England signed this off-season, I sincerely doubt it. I'm curious about the Maybin point. Was it Adalius Thomas or Tully Banta-Cain that he'd start over? And on what do you base this statement? Maybin hasn't played a snap in the NFL, whereas Thomas and Banta-Cain have played on Superbowl winning defenses. You might as well give up now, Fingon, or do a better job of making stuff up, because your latest post was particularly putrid. If this thread were an NFL Films video, you'd see me on the sideline phone saying "911? Yeah, we need help on this message board, I am killing Fingon here..." Not really--I stand by Fingon's views myself as to who would start. I'd also say that McKelvin might start over Springs or Bodden (Springs more likely than Bodden--if for no other reason than Springs might not be healthy (again)) and Poz over an aging Bruschi. Remember, for all intents and purposes Poz was a rookie last season,too. Notice that Tedy had not sacks, FF or INT's last year vs. Poz's two such plays. In addition, Paul's numbers weren't all that far off Mayo's, either (although admittedly system differences make a direct comparison tough). Whitner over Merieweather/Sanders is a no-brainer, despite how much ribbing Whitner gets here--don't believe me check one of the earlier threads this week that had a Sporting News article with DW as the 8th best safety in the League versus 17th for Brandon. It's also unfair to dismiss the drafting of Edwards, who most neutral observers agree was a steal of a pick in the third round two years ago and has the potential to be a good NFL QB, simply because he lines up against Brady. I stand by my statement that our drafts were better than the Pats* the last three years and I think that most neutral observers would agree with that.
thebandit27 Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 Not really--I stand by Fingon's views myself as to who would start. I'd also say that McKelvin might start over Springs or Bodden (Springs more likely than Bodden--if for no other reason than Springs might not be healthy (again)) and Poz over an aging Bruschi. Remember, for all intents and purposes Poz was a rookie last season,too. Notice that Tedy had not sacks, FF or INT's last year vs. Poz's two such plays. In addition, Paul's numbers weren't all that far off Mayo's, either (although admittedly system differences make a direct comparison tough). Whitner over Merieweather/Sanders is a no-brainer, despite how much ribbing Whitner gets here--don't believe me check one of the earlier threads this week that had a Sporting News article with DW as the 8th best safety in the League versus 17th for Brandon. It's also unfair to dismiss the drafting of Edwards, who most neutral observers agree was a steal of a pick in the third round two years ago and has the potential to be a good NFL QB, simply because he lines up against Brady. I stand by my statement that our drafts were better than the Pats* the last three years and I think that most neutral observers would agree with that. So, if I've got this right: - McKelvin starts over Springs because he may not be healthy, even though McKelvin is the one missing OTA time (side note: the Patriots passed on McKelvin to draft Mayo, so that may tell you what they thought of him) - Poz starts over Bruschi because he was practically a rookie last year - Whitner starts (in a no-brainer, no less) over either Meriweather or Sanders because--even though there's nothing statistically or evidentiary to support it--a Sporting News article say he's better, despite the diparity in the number of plays that they make - Most neutral observers (none of whom you mention or reference) think Edwards was a steal because he lines up against Brady...um, Edwards doesn't line up against Brady, he plays QB Look, I know that we have differing opinions, and I certainly don't want to sound as though you aren't entitled to yours, but--to be fair--the stuff you and Fingon are saying to back up your statements doesn't make any sense. I totally disagree that most neutral observers would agree with you. In fact, I'd bet a significant amount that most neutral observers would take any Patriot over any Bill at the same position without a thought. I would love for what you're saying to be true: that Buffalo's players are--to a man--better than New England's...but they aren't.
MattM Posted June 4, 2009 Author Posted June 4, 2009 So, if I've got this right: - McKelvin starts over Springs because he may not be healthy, even though McKelvin is the one missing OTA time (side note: the Patriots passed on McKelvin to draft Mayo, so that may tell you what they thought of him) - Poz starts over Bruschi because he was practically a rookie last year - Whitner starts (in a no-brainer, no less) over either Meriweather or Sanders because--even though there's nothing statistically or evidentiary to support it--a Sporting News article say he's better, despite the diparity in the number of plays that they make - Most neutral observers (none of whom you mention or reference) think Edwards was a steal because he lines up against Brady...um, Edwards doesn't line up against Brady, he plays QB Look, I know that we have differing opinions, and I certainly don't want to sound as though you aren't entitled to yours, but--to be fair--the stuff you and Fingon are saying to back up your statements doesn't make any sense. I totally disagree that most neutral observers would agree with you. In fact, I'd bet a significant amount that most neutral observers would take any Patriot over any Bill at the same position without a thought. I would love for what you're saying to be true: that Buffalo's players are--to a man--better than New England's...but they aren't. The question here is who had a better draft over the last three years--of that I'm very confident that neutral observers would give that to the Bills hands down (perhaps on the 2007 draft alone--Lynch, Poz, Edwards). That said, I also stand by what I said above on your criteria for how to judge a draft (based on who on our team could start on theirs). Bruschi's washed up. Springs is also 32 years old and injury prone versus the top CB picked in the draft last year and who showed flashes of talent late in the season on D (despite what the Pats* might have thoughts in Dec.). Whitner may not have the gaudy INT stats, but that's because he spends a lot more time in the box than Meriweather. If you don't understand the point I made about the Bills getting credit for drafting Edwards in the third round then I don't know what to say to you, other than to send you back to logic class (which I doubt you ever took). "Lines up" was a figure of speech--you were trying to say that the Bills shouldn't get credit for drafting Edwards since Edwards plays the same position as Brady and Brady is better than Edwards, none of which has any bearing on whether or not Edwards was a good draft pick. Interestingly, since you keep bringing up Mayo, Poz actually had more "impact plays" (FF, INT, sacks) than your ROY (and Bruschi, for that matter) did last year--you do realize that, don't you?
canbuffan34 Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patrio...ork-speaks.html My only bet on this situation is that the media will report this and the Pats*' reaction to it as 180 degrees different than they did when it was the Bills doing the exact same thing--if/when Kraft refuses to pay Fatboy it will be hailed all over the sports media world as an example of "principles" vs. when Ralph does it "he's just being his usual cheap loser self"....... You said "pulling" and "peters" ( Peter Griffin laugh ) heh! heh!
MattM Posted June 4, 2009 Author Posted June 4, 2009 You said "pulling" and "peters" ( Peter Griffin laugh ) heh! heh! Thank you--I was was waiting for someone to get that.....
BuffaloBill Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 Lets hope he sits out the whole off and pre season the way Peters did - he will not be in game shape for the opener. May the Patsies* have a difficult offseason.
thebandit27 Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 The question here is who had a better draft over the last three years--of that I'm very confident that neutral observers would give that to the Bills hands down (perhaps on the 2007 draft alone--Lynch, Poz, Edwards). That said, I also stand by what I said above on your criteria for how to judge a draft (based on who on our team could start on theirs). Bruschi's washed up. Springs is also 32 years old and injury prone versus the top CB picked in the draft last year and who showed flashes of talent late in the season on D (despite what the Pats* might have thoughts in Dec.). Whitner may not have the gaudy INT stats, but that's because he spends a lot more time in the box than Meriweather. If you don't understand the point I made about the Bills getting credit for drafting Edwards in the third round then I don't know what to say to you, other than to send you back to logic class (which I doubt you ever took). "Lines up" was a figure of speech--you were trying to say that the Bills shouldn't get credit for drafting Edwards since Edwards plays the same position as Brady and Brady is better than Edwards, none of which has any bearing on whether or not Edwards was a good draft pick. Interestingly, since you keep bringing up Mayo, Poz actually had more "impact plays" (FF, INT, sacks) than your ROY (and Bruschi, for that matter) did last year--you do realize that, don't you? No, what I responded to (maybe my problem is that they didn't cover "arguing draft prowess" in discrete logic 201, or it could be that I never had to go to class) was the ridiculous statement that the consensus about Edwards is that he's a steal because he lines up against Brady, which you claim will somehow impact his growth...which has absolutely no LOGICAL basis. What is it about playing on the other sideline across from Tom Brady that is going to help Edwards? Regarding whether or not he was a good draft pick, perhaps he could do us the small favor of playing well against a team that doesn't suck before we annoint him the uber-steal of the 2007 draft. I've seen Whitner play, I'm aware of his role. The contention that he'd start over either of NE's safeties in Belichick's defense tells me that you don't watch very much football, or in the very least have no clue how Belichick runs his defense. His safeties don't play "in the box". He actually relies on LBs and DL to stop the run, while safeties play primarily in pass coverage...what a concept! So you want Poz over Mayo, huh? That makes one of you (well, two counting Fingon). Here's an idea, actually watch the two of them play, and then come back and tell me you'd rather have Poz. Mayo is more active, better at the point of attack, quicker in pursuit, and a better tackler. But hey, go ahead and tout the great Bills' drafts, and when our team is home again in January and New England is playing you can continue to tell me how great our draft picks were.
MattM Posted June 5, 2009 Author Posted June 5, 2009 No, what I responded to (maybe my problem is that they didn't cover "arguing draft prowess" in discrete logic 201, or it could be that I never had to go to class) was the ridiculous statement that the consensus about Edwards is that he's a steal because he lines up against Brady, which you claim will somehow impact his growth...which has absolutely no LOGICAL basis. What is it about playing on the other sideline across from Tom Brady that is going to help Edwards? Regarding whether or not he was a good draft pick, perhaps he could do us the small favor of playing well against a team that doesn't suck before we annoint him the uber-steal of the 2007 draft. I've seen Whitner play, I'm aware of his role. The contention that he'd start over either of NE's safeties in Belichick's defense tells me that you don't watch very much football, or in the very least have no clue how Belichick runs his defense. His safeties don't play "in the box". He actually relies on LBs and DL to stop the run, while safeties play primarily in pass coverage...what a concept! So you want Poz over Mayo, huh? That makes one of you (well, two counting Fingon). Here's an idea, actually watch the two of them play, and then come back and tell me you'd rather have Poz. Mayo is more active, better at the point of attack, quicker in pursuit, and a better tackler. But hey, go ahead and tout the great Bills' drafts, and when our team is home again in January and New England is playing you can continue to tell me how great our draft picks were. On Edwards, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, but think that my post you quoted pretty squarely sums up what I meant. I'll still take Whitner over Meriweather (who, yes, I've seen play quite a number of times, having DTV and a DVR--I catch at least parts of most Pats* games, actually). Safeties have run support duties as well in most Ds, BTW, the emphasis depending on the team and system. Go back and read your original post--you seem to dispute whether Poz would start over either Mayo or Tedy. I think he'd clearly start over Bruschi at this stage in Tedy's career. I think most neutral folks would agree with me. Bruschi may not even start himself this year, I suspect. My biggest grip with Poz is that he seems to find himself out of position too often. Don't know if that's due to playing his first year in the NFL or what. That said, I've also seen Mayo out of position and as noted, Mayo's stats aren't all that different than Poz's and, as noted, he has fewer "impact plays". That's what I originally meant by "being a tad overrated". I seem to remember days when a "good or very good" LB was expected to contribute 3-4 sacks, to go along with 2-3 picks and a FF or two..... The Pats* may indeed be playing in January while our boys are at home, but I strongly doubt that the difference is because they drafted better than we did in 2006-8, as was the original point in contention.
Ice Cold Bruschi Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 You should also factor in for the 07 draft that we traded a 2nd for welker, a 4th for Moss and turned the 28th pick in 07 into the 7th overall in 08. I understand that it has nothing to do with the people we drafted but we took some pretty low picks and turned them into the guy who caught the most td's ever in a season, the guy whose led the league in receptions the two years he's been with us, and the defensive rookie of the year.
Ice Cold Bruschi Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 On Edwards, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, but think that my post you quoted pretty squarely sums up what I meant. I'll still take Whitner over Meriweather (who, yes, I've seen play quite a number of times, having DTV and a DVR--I catch at least parts of most Pats* games, actually). Safeties have run support duties as well in most Ds, BTW, the emphasis depending on the team and system. Go back and read your original post--you seem to dispute whether Poz would start over either Mayo or Tedy. I think he'd clearly start over Bruschi at this stage in Tedy's career. I think most neutral folks would agree with me. Bruschi may not even start himself this year, I suspect. My biggest grip with Poz is that he seems to find himself out of position too often. Don't know if that's due to playing his first year in the NFL or what. That said, I've also seen Mayo out of position and as noted, Mayo's stats aren't all that different than Poz's and, as noted, he has fewer "impact plays". That's what I originally meant by "being a tad overrated". I seem to remember days when a "good or very good" LB was expected to contribute 3-4 sacks, to go along with 2-3 picks and a FF or two..... The Pats* may indeed be playing in January while our boys are at home, but I strongly doubt that the difference is because they drafted better than we did in 2006-8, as was the original point in contention. I'm sad to say that Bruschi is about done at this point, Gary Guyton (UDRFA last year) started a lot of games and got more snaps than Bruschi last year. So yeah Poz is obviously better than Bruschi at this point (can't hold his jock career wise but he's only been playing two years so we'll see) but Mayo is head and shoulders above him.
MattM Posted June 5, 2009 Author Posted June 5, 2009 You should also factor in for the 07 draft that we traded a 2nd for welker, a 4th for Moss and turned the 28th pick in 07 into the 7th overall in 08. I understand that it has nothing to do with the people we drafted but we took some pretty low picks and turned them into the guy who caught the most td's ever in a season, the guy whose led the league in receptions the two years he's been with us, and the defensive rookie of the year. Point taken, but I think that goes more towards Pioli's talent analysis as GM than, for ex., your college scouting dept. I will give you a lot of credit for Welker, but not quite as much for Moss, since Randy would only go to the Pats* apparently and he really controlled the trade via his cap number and taking a pay cut. On Bruschi, I agree with you (or your agreeing with me). Don't know too much about Guyton other than seeing him fill in some last year. Didn't seem to grab me too much since, as noted above, I watched a lot of your games last year. Someone like Maulaluga might have been a nice fit for you this year, but we'll see how he does in Cincy.
thebandit27 Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 On Edwards, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, but think that my post you quoted pretty squarely sums up what I meant. I'll still take Whitner over Meriweather (who, yes, I've seen play quite a number of times, having DTV and a DVR--I catch at least parts of most Pats* games, actually). Safeties have run support duties as well in most Ds, BTW, the emphasis depending on the team and system. Go back and read your original post--you seem to dispute whether Poz would start over either Mayo or Tedy. I think he'd clearly start over Bruschi at this stage in Tedy's career. I think most neutral folks would agree with me. Bruschi may not even start himself this year, I suspect. My biggest grip with Poz is that he seems to find himself out of position too often. Don't know if that's due to playing his first year in the NFL or what. That said, I've also seen Mayo out of position and as noted, Mayo's stats aren't all that different than Poz's and, as noted, he has fewer "impact plays". That's what I originally meant by "being a tad overrated". I seem to remember days when a "good or very good" LB was expected to contribute 3-4 sacks, to go along with 2-3 picks and a FF or two..... The Pats* may indeed be playing in January while our boys are at home, but I strongly doubt that the difference is because they drafted better than we did in 2006-8, as was the original point in contention. You said this: It's also unfair to dismiss the drafting of Edwards, who most neutral observers agree was a steal of a pick in the third round two years ago and has the potential to be a good NFL QB, simply because he lines up against Brady. There are only 2 things that can be reasonably interpereted from your statement: (1) Edwards is widely considered a steal (by whom you still haven't mentioned, other than this mythical myriad of neutral observers) because he has the potential to be (but isn't right now) a good NFL quarterback. (2) Edwards' potential shouldn't be dismissed simply because he lines up against Tom Brady. Here's the crux, dude: - How can the guy be a "steal" when he only manages to play well against bottom-feeder defenses and can't do anything against divisional opponents? - Shouldn't Edwards' be compared to Brady? That's his competition. If you're not going to compare him to other winning QBs, there's no point in discussing his aptitudes. If you really have absolutey no idea what I'm talking about, then this discussion is over, because I can't spell it out any clearer than that for you. Regarding Whitner: hey, maybe you subscribe to the idea that less is more. Personally, I'd rather have my safeties be able to create turnovers than be one of my key run defenders. I'd prefer to leave the stout-at-the-point-of-attack responsibilities to guys that weigh more than 200 lbs. There's a reason that safeties are widely-considered pass defenders moreso than run defenders. You want to cling to the fact that Poz had an interception and Mayo did not as justification that Poz is a better player. How about if I use your logic on this, and say that "I think most neutral folks would agree with me" that Mayo is a better player. Go watch all 16 Bills' games and let me know if and when you see Poz make a play behind the line of scrimmage. I know I saw Mayo stuff Buffalo's running game in the backfield 2 or 3 times in the first game alone. Unfortunately, that stuff doesn't show up on the stat sheet, so people like you just assume that he doesn't make "impact plays". Also, don't you think you're over-stating Poz's ability to make these venerable "impact plays" to which you keep referring? I mean, the guy had 1 sack and 1 interception; it's not as though he's out there changing games routinely.
Ice Cold Bruschi Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 Point taken, but I think that goes more towards Pioli's talent analysis as GM than, for ex., your college scouting dept. I will give you a lot of credit for Welker, but not quite as much for Moss, since Randy would only go to the Pats* apparently and he really controlled the trade via his cap number and taking a pay cut. On Bruschi, I agree with you (or your agreeing with me). Don't know too much about Guyton other than seeing him fill in some last year. Didn't seem to grab me too much since, as noted above, I watched a lot of your games last year. Someone like Maulaluga might have been a nice fit for you this year, but we'll see how he does in Cincy. Yeah I wanted Maualuga so bad, I really wonder why we didn't take him. But Guyton is pretty decent, he played 3rd downs mostly, due to his crazy speed (fastest LB in the draft last year) he plays pretty well in coverage, he plays well in space, not that good in the thick of things
MattM Posted June 5, 2009 Author Posted June 5, 2009 You said this: It's also unfair to dismiss the drafting of Edwards, who most neutral observers agree was a steal of a pick in the third round two years ago and has the potential to be a good NFL QB, simply because he lines up against Brady. There are only 2 things that can be reasonably interpereted from your statement: (1) Edwards is widely considered a steal (by whom you still haven't mentioned, other than this mythical myriad of neutral observers) because he has the potential to be (but isn't right now) a good NFL quarterback. (2) Edwards' potential shouldn't be dismissed simply because he lines up against Tom Brady. Here's the crux, dude: - How can the guy be a "steal" when he only manages to play well against bottom-feeder defenses and can't do anything against divisional opponents? - Shouldn't Edwards' be compared to Brady? That's his competition. If you're not going to compare him to other winning QBs, there's no point in discussing his aptitudes. If you really have absolutey no idea what I'm talking about, then this discussion is over, because I can't spell it out any clearer than that for you. Regarding Whitner: hey, maybe you subscribe to the idea that less is more. Personally, I'd rather have my safeties be able to create turnovers than be one of my key run defenders. I'd prefer to leave the stout-at-the-point-of-attack responsibilities to guys that weigh more than 200 lbs. There's a reason that safeties are widely-considered pass defenders moreso than run defenders. You want to cling to the fact that Poz had an interception and Mayo did not as justification that Poz is a better player. How about if I use your logic on this, and say that "I think most neutral folks would agree with me" that Mayo is a better player. Go watch all 16 Bills' games and let me know if and when you see Poz make a play behind the line of scrimmage. I know I saw Mayo stuff Buffalo's running game in the backfield 2 or 3 times in the first game alone. Unfortunately, that stuff doesn't show up on the stat sheet, so people like you just assume that he doesn't make "impact plays". Also, don't you think you're over-stating Poz's ability to make these venerable "impact plays" to which you keep referring? I mean, the guy had 1 sack and 1 interception; it's not as though he's out there changing games routinely. As noted way above, "lining up against" means compared to, since that was the idiotic premise of how you proposed to compare drafts, ie. who did we draft who could start on the Pats*. Really a false way to look at things, but I played along. It is moronic to say that Edwards was not a high value draft pick because he can't beat out a Hall of Fame QB. How is a QB who most neutral observers admit is better than at least 7-8 other starting QBs in this League in his second full year (and even better from a pure stats line I'd wager) and was picked in the third round in 2007 not a very good draft pick? I cited a neutral observer's view on Whitner over Meriweather--did you? That 1 sack and 1 interception of Poz's were one more than your boy Mayo had last year in those measurables that we have access to and that are the most widely used. Ever think that Mayo may have had better stats since he played behind one of the best D-lines in the League and one of the best NTs (even if he is a dirty player)? That ever cross your mind? Certainly helps to make plays in the backfield when your D-line can neutralize the O-line. Even so, Poz's numbers (since that's all we've got here to go by largely) stack up respectfully against the ROY and there's no denying that.
MattM Posted June 5, 2009 Author Posted June 5, 2009 Yeah I wanted Maualuga so bad, I really wonder why we didn't take him. But Guyton is pretty decent, he played 3rd downs mostly, due to his crazy speed (fastest LB in the draft last year) he plays pretty well in coverage, he plays well in space, not that good in the thick of things We'll see how he does in Cinci. Thanks for joining the conversation--as you'll see, we don't mind here when intelligent fans from other teams (even the Pats!) want to come over and chat.....
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