Rethinking the GM bailout...

[John Adams]

You have to admit, all his focus on the economy is paying off. Things are starting to get better.

 

Are you shitting me?

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Are you shitting me?

Have you seen the DOW lately? In the last 3 months it has gained over 2100 points and the NASDAQ has gained over 200 points!

These are the highest since Oct 2008.

 

Stocks fluctuated today as gains pushed the Dow Jones industrial average into the black for 2009.

 

The blue chips had been down by as much as 25.4 percent for the year in early March.

[Fastback]

You have to admit, all his focus on the economy is paying off. Things are starting to get better.

 

 

Isn't Barney or the Teletubbies on? Maybe you should stick to watching Sesame street and leave the interweb alone.

[John Adams]

Have you seen the DOW lately? In the last 3 months it has gained over 2100 points and the NASDAQ has gained over 200 points!

These are the highest since Oct 2008.

 

Stocks fluctuated today as gains pushed the Dow Jones industrial average into the black for 2009.

 

The blue chips had been down by as much as 25.4 percent for the year in early March.

 

Don't make me go all Dwight Drane on you. That the Dow is now only down 40% from where it was 18 months ago is only a single indicator of how bad things are in the economy.

 

If I was going to stick the health of the economy on a single number, it sure as sh-- wouldn't be the DJIA. But playing that game, I will to start thinking that things are getting better when we see unemployment in the 5% range again--and those added jobs are not paid for by me, ie, non-government jobs.

[Chef Jim]

Have you seen the DOW lately? In the last 3 months it has gained over 2100 points and the NASDAQ has gained over 200 points!

These are the highest since Oct 2008.

 

Stocks fluctuated today as gains pushed the Dow Jones industrial average into the black for 2009.

 

The blue chips had been down by as much as 25.4 percent for the year in early March.

 

Yes those are great numbers. But what does this have to do with the current administration? This is what happens during every recession.

[finknottle]

Yes those are great numbers. But what does this have to do with the current administration? This is what happens during every recession.

 

If we are pulling out, then it only means that Obama was wrong about the Great Depression II (I guess that makes him a liar according to some posters here) and those who were ridiculed for saying the fundimentals were strong were correct. *Nothing* turns around an economy that quickly. Almost none of the stimulus money, his chief remedy, has been spent yet. None of the housing fixes are enacted. And nobody even knows what the health care plan that will emerge looks like

[/dev/null]

Things are starting to get better.

 

And Leon is getting Laaaaaarger

[Chef Jim]

If we are pulling out, then it only means that Obama was wrong about the Great Depression II (I guess that makes him a liar according to some posters here) and those who were ridiculed for saying the fundimentals were strong were correct. *Nothing* turns around an economy that quickly. Almost none of the stimulus money, his chief remedy, has been spent yet. None of the housing fixes are enacted. And nobody even knows what the health care plan that will emerge looks like

 

You know what the best remedy for a recession is? Time and this ones been going on longer than most and sure it's been deeper than most but I feel it's run its course. What am I basing that on? See my second sentence.

[Magox]

Have you seen the DOW lately? In the last 3 months it has gained over 2100 points and the NASDAQ has gained over 200 points!

These are the highest since Oct 2008.

 

Stocks fluctuated today as gains pushed the Dow Jones industrial average into the black for 2009.

 

The blue chips had been down by as much as 25.4 percent for the year in early March.

Are you giving credit to Obama and his administration for the DOW and S&P's rally?

 

This administration has very little to do with the rally, their home modification loan program is failing miserably, with over 50% of all participants defaulting on their new loans. The Stimulus Bill is hardly a "stimulus", and the TARP program has recapitalized failed banks, which have yet to let credit flow the way they had anticipated. If anything, their programs are serving as a drag to the economy.

 

The reason why the market has rallied is for a few reasons, one the market was severely technically oversold, and had it's biggest drop in decades and was due for a substantial Bear Market Rally. The impetus for the rally, was that LIBOR rates have eased dramatically and the commercial paper markets have opened up.

 

You can pretty much say that the Federal Reserve with it's massive money printing, in the trillions has bought this rally. What do you expect? If you print trillions of dollars stuff is going to go up!

 

But not on a sustained basis.

 

You can take that to the bank!

 

The real economy is continuing to lose jobs with very little prospects of recuperating the job losses. This administration will have you believe that their stimulus bill will create or save millions of jobs. Bullsh*t!!

 

Even though bank CEO's say they are lending, they are lending less today then 3 months ago, and that is a fact!

 

The real gauge of this economy improving will be when we start creating jobs again on a sustained basis, and I don't see that happening for a very long time.

 

With high unemployment, banks and creditors will continue to constrain credit, if credit remains restrained, then the majority of goods and services will be muted, and if we aren't selling too many goods then there won't be too many job hires. That is the way it works! No way around it, I know this administration will have you believe that they have the answers, but soon enough we will find out that these plans are not good viable long term plans for this economy.

[Magox]

You know what the best remedy for a recession is? Time and this ones been going on longer than most and sure it's been deeper than most but I feel it's run its course. What am I basing that on? See my second sentence.

I believe that the recession will be ending soon, and the stock market is pricing that in, but what people are failing to do is readjusting their expectations of how this economy will look after the recession . Instead of 4% GDP growth, we will be seeing 1-2% GDP growth. Just like Mohammad El Erian says, which I think he puts it perfectly, we have to get used to the "new normal", which has everything to do with readjusting expectations after the recession. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=abR5NmnjbwCQ

 

“The world has changed in a manner that is unlikely to be reversed over the next few years,” El-Erian wrote following Pimco’s annual secular outlook forum last week, according to a statement listed on the company’s Web site today. “For markets that are highly conditioned by the most recent periods of ‘normality,’ this will feel like a new normal.”

A greater role for governments in private markets and a banking system that “will be a shadow of its former self” will lead to “subdued” global growth and high unemployment, El- Erian wrote. In such an environment, the firm favors the front end of the yield curve in several countries, he wrote.

 

Sure we may see a whopping 4-5% figure in the next year for a quarter or two, but then we will see us come back down to a much lower GDP number. I also believe that at some point during this presidents tenure, we will see another dip and fall back into a recession once again.

[IDBillzFan]

Are you giving credit to Obama and his administration for the DOW and S&P's rally?

Only when it goes up.

 

Why, the DOW soared up almost 20 points today simply because the Obama's flew three planes to NY to catch a dinner and a show. The market would be stupid not to acknowledge how smart the Obama's are to take a million taxpayer dollars and put it to work like that.

[erynthered]

Only when it goes up.

 

Why, the DOW soared up almost 20 points today simply because the Obama's flew three planes to NY to catch a dinner and a show. The market would be stupid not to acknowledge how smart the Obama's are to take a million taxpayer dollars and put it to work like that.

 

I thought the market soared because obama said " who are we to tell Iran, that they cant have nukes"

 

Not sure if there was bowing involved, sorry. Was busy slapping the "Dean" around.

[Kelly the Dog]

Only when it goes up.

 

Why, the DOW soared up almost 20 points today simply because the Obama's flew three planes to NY to catch a dinner and a show. The market would be stupid not to acknowledge how smart the Obama's are to take a million taxpayer dollars and put it to work like that.

 

You're not going to stoop to criticizing him for taking his wife to a Broadway show are you? That's friggin' weak.

[/dev/null]

You're not going to stoop to criticizing him for taking his wife to a Broadway show are you? That's friggin' weak.

He even paid for the ticket all by himself

[DC Tom]

You're not going to stoop to criticizing him for taking his wife to a Broadway show are you? That's friggin' weak.

 

Lots of people are. I've ever heard some liberals do it.

 

Have I mentioned recently that people are !@#$ing retarded?

[IDBillzFan]

You're not going to stoop to criticizing him for taking his wife to a Broadway show are you? That's friggin' weak.

No. Of course not. I just think it's great that he can spend one minute telling everyone it's time to buck up and make sacrifices to get through the greatest economic downturn since the Great Depression, (which, of course, he inherited and had absolutely no role in), while in the next minute taking three planes on taxpayer dime to NY for dinner and a play.

 

What? No good restaurants and theater in DC? He couldn't buck it up for the night? Are things not as grim as he made them sound? That couldn't be, could it? No. Of course not.

 

No. He's president. He can do what he wants, not what he says. What's the problem, here, really? I mean, it's a drop in the bucket, right? We're laundering trillions to unions through a bankrupt company. What's another million to take in a show? We can afford it if for no other reason than to heal our souls.

 

This is probably where you come up with a link that says it wasn't a million dollars, it was only $638,438 and the Obamas haven't missed a date night in 20 years and it was important to do this to show people that all is well. Or you complain that all I do is B word about Obama, but that's not true, really, because he DID ask his cabinet to trim $100M, so that's something.

 

And lest you think my problem is really the trip, let me spell it out for you. He's less disingenous that even I would have imagined. A leader leads by example. Even a liberal understands that. He's a phony sack of schitt and that's exactly how he'll go down in history. A phoney sack of schhitt.

 

He even paid for the ticket all by himself

Did he pick up the tab for the three planes to get him and his staff there and back?

 

Funny how everyone bitched and criticized the wasteful, moronic automakers for taking private planes to beg for taxpayer money, but when the president takes three of them to go to a !@#$king play, it's no big deal. Just taxpayer money. We'll print more.

[Kelly the Dog]

No. Of course not. I just think it's great that he can spend one minute telling everyone it's time to buck up and make sacrifices to get through the greatest economic downturn since the Great Depression, (which, of course, he inherited and had absolutely no role in), while in the next minute taking three planes on taxpayer dime to NY for dinner and a play.

 

What? No good restaurants and theater in DC? He couldn't buck it up for the night? Are things not as grim as he made them sound? That couldn't be, could it? No. Of course not.

 

No. He's president. He can do what he wants, not what he says. What's the problem, here, really? I mean, it's a drop in the bucket, right? We're laundering trillions to unions through a bankrupt company. What's another million to take in a show? We can afford it if for no other reason than to heal our souls.

 

This is probably where you come up with a link that says it wasn't a million dollars, it was only $638,438 and the Obamas haven't missed a date night in 20 years and it was important to do this to show people that all is well. Or you complain that all I do is B word about Obama, but that's not true, really, because he DID ask his cabinet to trim $100M, so that's something.

 

And lest you think my problem is really the trip, let me spell it out for you. He's less disingenous that even I would have imagined. A leader leads by example. Even a liberal understands that. He's a phony sack of schitt and that's exactly how he'll go down in history. A phoney sack of schhitt.

 

 

Did he pick up the tab for the three planes to get him and his staff there and back?

 

Funny how everyone bitched and criticized the wasteful, moronic automakers for taking private planes to beg for taxpayer money, but when the president takes three of them to go to a !@#$king play, it's no big deal. Just taxpayer money. We'll print more.

This is starting to become fun. You've gone completely wacka on me. I mean, I feel really bad for your wife and kids for the next 15.6 years (at least), but it's really becoming a laugher.

[IDBillzFan]

This is starting to become fun. You've gone completely wacka on me. I mean, I feel really bad for your wife and kids for the next 15.6 years (at least), but it's really becoming a laugher.

You are as predictable as a Keith Olberman rant, my friend.

 

It's unfortunate you think you get under my skin by taunting your little "four terms" thing without having the most basic common sense to understand and accept that if Obama and his wife COULD last four terms, then they're obviously doing something right, and if they're doing something right, then that's good by me. I would like to think you know me better than that, but I can understand that without a link to some 1987 speech that Obama gave in the basement of the Mayor of Wherethe!@#$kamI, Wisconsin, insisting that in his first term he'd blow a million bucks of taxpayer money to take his wife out on the town (You see!! He kept his promise!!!), the next best thing is to dig deep into your "I got nothing" bag of tricks and refer to me as Wacka again. Not so original, but at least you're not Conner.

 

The one thing we both know is true; if things don't start turning around soon, you're gonna want to think twice about your position as Obama's personal fluffer. While people like you and me dick around with ideals and principals and ways to govern, we both know that it all comes down to the economy. If his reckless spending doesn't pull us out of this tailspin, and all indications are that it's not happening soon, then he's completely fubared and he'll be standing around by himself like Frank Langella at the end of "Dave." You know this is true. Even you'd be tip-toeing away, wiping your chin, hoping no one is looking.

 

Which is why I say, if he's successful, that's good by me because it means the economy is flourishing. But I think it won't be long before more people start realizing he's a !@#$ing train wreck waiting to happen and forgive me, but we simply will not be able to turn away. If he succeeds, it'll be great. But if he crashes, it will be epic.

[Kelly the Dog]

You are as predictable as a Keith Olberman rant, my friend.

 

It's unfortunate you think you get under my skin by taunting your little "four terms" thing without having the most basic common sense to understand and accept that if Obama and his wife COULD last four terms, then they're obviously doing something right, and if they're doing something right, then that's good by me. I would like to think you know me better than that, but I can understand that without a link to some 1987 speech that Obama gave in the basement of the Mayor of Wherethe!@#$kamI, Wisconsin, insisting that in his first term he'd blow a million bucks of taxpayer money to take his wife out on the town (You see!! He kept his promise!!!), the next best thing is to dig deep into your "I got nothing" bag of tricks and refer to me as Wacka again. Not so original, but at least you're not Conner.

 

The one thing we both know is true; if things don't start turning around soon, you're gonna want to think twice about your position as Obama's personal fluffer. While people like you and me dick around with ideals and principals and ways to govern, we both know that it all comes down to the economy. If his reckless spending doesn't pull us out of this tailspin, and all indications are that it's not happening soon, then he's completely fubared and he'll be standing around by himself like Frank Langella at the end of "Dave." You know this is true. Even you'd be tip-toeing away, wiping your chin, hoping no one is looking.

 

Which is why I say, if he's successful, that's good by me because it means the economy is flourishing. But I think it won't be long before more people start realizing he's a !@#$ing train wreck waiting to happen and forgive me, but we simply will not be able to turn away. If he succeeds, it'll be great. But if he crashes, it will be epic.

It's not going to be him and his wife, it will be him and Hilary, get it straight.

 

And he has about two full years from now for the economy to get better, and probably closer to three years. Anyone who thinks he should have already seen serious success five months after he started when it takes a few months of that five to even start is not a rational thinking person. That would be you.

 

Most of the allegedly reckless spending hasn't been close to being spent, or alloted, or even ever will be spent -- a huge portion of it is in loans which will likely be re-paid (some of which is very soon) -- a huge portion of it is smart, long term investment in green energy, technology, and education which we will likely START to see the fruits of in his second term and has been a long time overdue.

 

The debt is a serious problem that will be with us for awhile, and hopefully will be under control in his second term.

[Magox]

It's not going to be him and his wife, it will be him and Hilary, get it straight.

 

And he has about two full years from now for the economy to get better, and probably closer to three years. Anyone who thinks he should have already seen serious success five months after he started when it takes a few months of that five to even start is not a rational thinking person. That would be you.

 

Most of the allegedly reckless spending hasn't been close to being spent, or alloted, or even ever will be spent -- a huge portion of it is in loans which will likely be re-paid (some of which is very soon) -- a huge portion of it is smart, long term investment in green energy, technology, and education which we will likely START to see the fruits of in his second term and has been a long time overdue.

 

The debt is a serious problem that will be with us for awhile, and hopefully will be under control in his second term.

 

It will be spent, and some!

 

In regards to paying down the debt, it won't be under control in his second term, it will be much worse. There are two ways to pay down a debt, you either cut spending or you generate more revenues. We know the first option is out of the equation, so that leaves generating more revenues, which means taxes. The Obama administration is hoping for growth rates at 4%+ at a sustained basis to be able to generate enough tax receipts to pay down the debt. Whoever believes that this will happen is either ignorant when it comes to economics or have a rose colored partisan view of what the messiah says. Unfortunately most people fall under both of these two categories so they will just go along defending what he does and will just hope for the best.

 

I understand economics, and I understand that this countries relies on credit extension for growth. I understand that as long as unemployment remains above 7% this economy can't possibly grow at a sustained basis. I understand that the type of wealth destruction that has been witnessed will cause many Americans to change their spending patterns and that we will become more a nation of savers (which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing) but it is definitely a bad thing for corporations and stock holders. I understand that Banks balance sheets have been decimated and are still holding tremendous amounts of toxic paper and assets, and with some of the new regulatory changes and the watchful eye of "big government" they won't be lending freely any time soon, which will have a negative impact on the economy. I understand that once the government becomes frustrated with not being able to generate more revenues, they will decide to raise taxes which will have additional negative "unintended consequences". I understand with the tremendous debt we are accumulating and the massive amount of money that is being printed by the federal reserve that inflation will be a major problem that this economy will have to deal with, and inflation is a painful tax that affects every single human being on this planet, which eats away at consumers spending power and corporate bottom line.

 

Also in regards to your belief that we will receive the majority of that money back. Wishful thinking buddy. Sure there are many banks that will be able to raise capital and pay back some of that money, which I believe defeats the purpose of the TARP, but thats a whole another issue, but I can pretty much assure you that we won't be seeing a lot of that money ever again. The money that was given to AIG, which is well over $100 Billion, GONE!!!! You will never see at least 90% of that money ever again, it got sucked into a big black hole. The money to GM and Chrysler, GONE!!! Even with calculations of 16 million vehicles a year which was their best years back some years ago, it would take 30 years to pay off that debt, GM will most likely achieve closer to 10-11 million vehicles a year, in which we would be lucky to get back 30% of that money. And there are countless other examples, not quite as large but they accumulate to a lot of money that we won't ever see again. That money all went to money heaven.