Jim in Anchorage Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 From the latest reports I've read now they are talking about the plane breaking up in the air in the storm. I can't think of a scenario that an extreme updraft or downdraft would be enough to break up the plane. Jim, you have any thoughts on this? The problem with T storms is not having a updraft or a downdraft,but BOTH right next to each other. Picture the wind shear turbulence at the boundary of a 3000 ft per minute updraft,and a 3000 ft per minute downdraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assquatch Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Now they're saying none of the debris they found is from the missing plane? WTF? http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/...rash/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I wish they had more detail on what they DID find. Is this like a reverse Bermuda triangle where you find planes that were never missing in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assquatch Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I read that they found an airplane seat fer cryin' out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I wish they had more detail on what they DID find. Is this like a reverse Bermuda triangle where you find planes that were never missing in the first place? The spread out debri field was the one thing that didn't seem to make much sense, but the oil slick with no debri sounds like the plane may have stayed intact when it went down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 From the latest reports I've read now they are talking about the plane breaking up in the air in the storm. I can't think of a scenario that an extreme updraft or downdraft would be enough to break up the plane. Jim, you have any thoughts on this? It's quite possible. Don't forget that downdrafts in storms can be as much as 10000 feet per minute, which is a hell of a lot of force, and planes are not a strong as most people would believe (they're not soap bubbles...but there's trade-offs made between structural strength and airframe weight). Today's story about this plane (at least the one I heard) seems to be that they got caught in turbulence and a severe downdraft which caused a stall and put the plane in a dive, in which they exceeded the tolerances of the airframe and sheared the wings off. I have no way of knowing if it's true, but it's certainly possible - I know of instances where aircraft (though not modern airliners) have been battered to pieces by their own turbulence in a high-speed dive. The bottom line, though, is that all we're ever likely to know is that the plane flew into a storm front and crashed...the precise details of "how" aren't likely to ever be figured out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I read that they found an airplane seat fer cryin' out loud. False reports? That stuff seems to happen all the time with today's media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 It's quite possible. Don't forget that downdrafts in storms can be as much as 10000 feet per minute, which is a hell of a lot of force, and planes are not a strong as most people would believe (they're not soap bubbles...but there's trade-offs made between structural strength and airframe weight). Today's story about this plane (at least the one I heard) seems to be that they got caught in turbulence and a severe downdraft which caused a stall and put the plane in a dive, in which they exceeded the tolerances of the airframe and sheared the wings off. I have no way of knowing if it's true, but it's certainly possible - I know of instances where aircraft (though not modern airliners) have been battered to pieces by their own turbulence in a high-speed dive. The bottom line, though, is that all we're ever likely to know is that the plane flew into a storm front and crashed...the precise details of "how" aren't likely to ever be figured out. Being in a dive in a severe down draft would offer no stress to the air frame at all till you exceeded the speed of the DD. Picture driving east at 30 MPH with a 30MPH west wind at your back. Put your hand out the window-there would be no Resistance because you are moving at the same speed,and direction as the column of air. The problem with a plane is you can't go down forever-you must at some point level off,and doing so too fast,too abruptly creates G forces that exceed the air frames capability. If the pilot attempted a 4 G maneuver, the wings that were designed for a 200,000 pound load would be supporting 800,000 pounds[or not] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Being in a dive in a severe down draft would offer no stress to the air frame at all till you exceeded the speed of the DD. Picture driving east at 30 MPH with a 30MPH west wind at your back. Put your hand out the window-there would be no Resistance because you are moving at the same speed,and direction as the column of air. The problem with a plane is you can't go down forever-you must at some point level off,and doing so too fast,too abruptly creates G forces that exceed the air frames capability. If the pilot attempted a 4 G maneuver, the wings that were designed for a 200,000 pound load would be supporting 800,000 pounds[or not] Thanks for the explanation, and I'm assuming once the plane falls to far in a severe downdraft that has pushed the nose down, leveling off wouldn't even be possible, especially if you lost partial power. You would just dive into the ocean at a horrible angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Thanks for the explanation, and I'm assuming once the plane falls to far in a severe downdraft that has pushed the nose down, leveling off wouldn't even be possible, especially if you lost partial power. You would just dive into the ocean at a horrible angle. Actually in that situation[nose down dive] you would kill the power[you don't want to go faster] till you leveled out. Like slowing your car down for a sharp curve. Anyway I wouldn't worry to much on a Continental US flight -its blanketed with weather radar that can easily pick up T storms,and goes real time via satellite to the pilot. In fact a hand held Garman 396[$1800 or so] has that capability. I mean Continental as in the land mass,not the airline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Actually in that situation[nose down dive] you would kill the power[you don't want to go faster] till you leveled out. Like slowing your car down for a sharp curve. Anyway I wouldn't worry to much on a Continental US flight -its blanketed with weather radar that can easily pick up T storms,and goes real time via satellite to the pilot. In fact a hand held Garman 396[$1800 or so] has that capability. I mean Continental as in the land mass,not the airline. OK, that makes sense because you already have plenty of speed (probably to much) I can only imagine how scary it would be even in a smaller plane to cut the power, much less a big airbus. ( you sound like a very experienced pilot ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 OK, that makes sense because you already have plenty of speed (probably to much) I can only imagine how scary it would be even in a smaller plane to cut the power, much less a big airbus. ( you sound like a very experienced pilot ) Not a lot of hours[1500 or so],but I am a pilot. I prefer not to judge other pilots,but sometimes I wonder[the Buffalo crash-pulling up in a stall?] As far as as a T storm,I can't fault the pilot-once your in one[i have read only,thank you] its is a near impossible situation. A nose down dive is actually about hour 4 in a private pilots lessons-power off,release the yoke[wings in a neutral or non-turning position] opposite rudder to correct spin,than a gradual pull back on the yoke[elevator] to level,then on the power to maintain altitude. The reason incidents like this bother me[aside from the obvious] is that it makes people afraid to fly-when was the last time the news blasted"yet another plane lands safely again"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Not a lot of hours[1500 or so],but I am a pilot. I prefer not to judge other pilots,but sometimes I wonder[the Buffalo crash-pulling up in a stall?] As far as as a T storm,I can't fault the pilot-once your in one[i have read only,thank you] its is a near impossible situation. A nose down dive is actually about hour 4 in a private pilots lessons-power off,release the yoke[wings in a neutral or non-turning position] opposite rudder to correct spin,than a gradual pull back on the yoke[elevator] to level,then on the power to maintain altitude. The reason incidents like this bother me[aside from the obvious] is that it makes people afraid to fly-when was the last time the news blasted"yet another plane lands safely again"? The Sully miracle landing on the Hudson I hear you though, some folks are terrified of flying, yet you can drive to the corner store a couple of blocks away and end up getting killed because some drunk had one to many to drink, go figure. Air Travel is by far the safest mode of transportation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Being in a dive in a severe down draft would offer no stress to the air frame at all till you exceeded the speed of the DD. Picture driving east at 30 MPH with a 30MPH west wind at your back. Put your hand out the window-there would be no Resistance because you are moving at the same speed,and direction as the column of air. The problem with a plane is you can't go down forever-you must at some point level off,and doing so too fast,too abruptly creates G forces that exceed the air frames capability. If the pilot attempted a 4 G maneuver, the wings that were designed for a 200,000 pound load would be supporting 800,000 pounds[or not] I know all that. I was just repeating the latest story I heard. I'm sure I'll hear a new one today at some point. Like I said, all we're ever likely to know is "They flew into a storm, and crashed". Everything else is conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLO Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Now they're saying none of the debris they found is from the missing plane? WTF? http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/...rash/index.html Anyone remember that Twilight Zone episode, The Odyssey of Flight 33? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I know all that. I was just repeating the latest story I heard. I'm sure I'll hear a new one today at some point. Like I said, all we're ever likely to know is "They flew into a storm, and crashed". Everything else is conjecture. Thats a weird scenario that ANOTHER Airbus broke apart due to G-Force loading, especially if due to some kind of pilot error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Here's an interesting theory... http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicva...air-france-447/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 There's just no escaping karma. If for some reason she misses you, she'll be sure to double back. Freaky. One more Air France passenger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 There's just no escaping karma. If for some reason she misses you, she'll be sure to double back. Freaky. One more Air France passenger Ya... I see what you are saying. I still find a connection between arriving late for a plane and somebody's driving/personal habits. They did say they swerved in front of a truck. How in the heck do you miss a plane without being scattered to begin with? That is what caught up with them on the Austrian road when the swerved, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 Ya... I see what you are saying. I still find a connection between arriving late for a plane and somebody's driving/personal habits. They did say they swerved in front of a truck. How in the heck do you miss a plane without being scattered to begin with? That is what caught up with them on the Austrian road when the swerved, IMO. I read The Perfect Storm several years ago and recall a part about a guy who bailed on the trip at the last minute. Went back home and died a short time later in another accident. Coincidences can be strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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