tennesseeboy Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I'm also Catholic,and I'm really not sure where I stand,politically,on this issue. Is it a sin for a woman who's been raped to take a morning after pill hours after the attack? That's a tough question,but I lean towards no. How about the rare cases where a womans life is really threatened by carrying a baby full term? Should the life of the fetus be more important than the life of the mother? What if that woman is your daughter. How would you feel about it then? I just don't know. With all the variables involved in this issue,the older I get the more I question why the government should play any role in such a private and painful decision. you raise very good points. I have to fall on the right of the person (including my daughter, who I would advise against abortion in all cases except to save her life...but she's got the right to make the choice). I just don't have much trouble reconciling my religious and moral beliefs with the fact that government does not have to enforce my religious or moral beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 See, I believe marriage is that cut and dry. This isn't to most people. If all life is sacred, then many believe the government should step in and protect the lives of the unborn, just as they would protect you or I with legislation. Why should you be able to "kill" someone just because they're fully dependent on you? By that logic, one can off grandma because she's not wanted? Â The flip side is to admit that unborn life holds a lesser place? Or perhaps it's more of a question of a parent deciding what to do for their child and making a very, very difficult medical decision? Akin to "go ahead with the transplant or not?" Â As a Catholic, though, do you believe in penance and absolution of sin? Isn't that a "get out of hell free" card for women that have had abortions? I'm a Catholic myself, do don't take the "Get out of hell free card" comment as an attack. Â Personally, I have no idea what the hell should be done about it. Quite honestly, I see it either way. It's probably better for it to be legal, though. For reasons outside of the religious circles. Sounds like we aren't very far apart. Abortion is definitely a mortal sin in all cases. (burn in hell stuff). However the government isn't the entity to enforce it when it involves the physical autonomy of the woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 you raise very good points. I have to fall on the right of the person (including my daughter, who I would advise against abortion in all cases except to save her life...but she's got the right to make the choice). I just don't have much trouble reconciling my religious and moral beliefs with the fact that government does not have to enforce my religious or moral beliefs. But the govt often does have to enforce our religious and moral beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 The most sacred human right is the right of personal autonomy, and the right to control one's body is paramount. Suppose you woke up hooked to a person in a hospital with fluids going from you to him. A doctor comes in and says if we disconnect you this person will die. This will last for nine months. Do you have a right to say "no I refuse to have this person here for nine months and to have my life so restricted" I think you do, although it would be a very nice thing for you to stay hooked up. I think that is where the state has its limits. Now Blackmuns "trimester" argument in Roe v. Wade does go a long way to give the state legitimate interests in certain stages of pregnancy. Â Is the choice of an abortion a bad one? Yes, in my opinion. However I think the person carrying the fetus has the right to make the choice. Â The analogy should be you wake up to find out you are connected to less cells than your fingernail and are told in nine months it could be a baby. I'd find that a much simpler decision. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 But the govt often does have to enforce our religious and moral beliefs. Â Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 See, I believe marriage is that cut and dry. This isn't to most people. If all life is sacred, then many believe the government should step in and protect the lives of the unborn, just as they would protect you or I with legislation. Why should you be able to "kill" someone just because they're fully dependent on you? By that logic, one can off grandma because she's not wanted? Â The flip side is to admit that unborn life holds a lesser place? Or perhaps it's more of a question of a parent deciding what to do for their child and making a very, very difficult medical decision? Akin to "go ahead with the transplant or not?" Â As a Catholic, though, do you believe in penance and absolution of sin? Isn't that a "get out of hell free" card for women that have had abortions? I'm a Catholic myself, do don't take the "Get out of hell free card" comment as an attack. Â Personally, I have no idea what the hell should be done about it. Quite honestly, I see it either way. It's probably better for it to be legal, though. For reasons outside of the religious circles. The 'get out of hell free card' applies to all of our sins--according to the Catholic faith. But its not free--it requires genuine remorse and actively asking God for forgiveness. -And perhaps its not completely free-There is purgatory for most of us I think--Catholic and non Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 QUOTE (Tcali @ Jun 2 2009, 10:38 PM) But the govt often does have to enforce our religious and moral beliefs. Â Why? Â I assume that part of your moral belief ..Steely Dan...involves not shooting the counter guy at 7-11 to make an easy buck from the cash register. The govt certainly has to enforce that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I see you get all your news, and the interpretation of it, from right-wing websites. I guess simply showing the actual reports discussed, and leaving us to make up our own minds on what was said, and meant, isn't "fair and balanced" enough for you. What difference does it make where erynthered got this news? These reports are accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 QUOTE (Tcali @ Jun 2 2009, 10:38 PM) But the govt often does have to enforce our religious and moral beliefs. Â Â Â I assume that part of your moral belief ..Steely Dan...involves not shooting the counter guy at 7-11 to make an easy buck from the cash register. The govt certainly has to enforce that. Â That's not a religious belief. That's a universal one. I can't think of a reason why the government has to ever enforce a religious belief. They can enforce the ability of us to worship but shouldn't enforce our religious beliefs. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 What difference does it make where erynthered got this news? These reports are accurate. Â Â There's NO commentary, or interpretation of Olbermann's remarks there...just the comments. Right. And, apparently NBC has an opinion, not simply one of their employees. Right. Â You are brighter than that, Mark. I know erynthered isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 That's not a religious belief. That's a universal one. I can't think of a reason why the government has to ever enforce a religious belief. They can enforce the ability of us to worship but shouldn't enforce our religious beliefs. JMO my whole point is that religious beliefs are over lapped by or overlap moral beliefs. In fact you make my point. Thou Shall Not Murder.religious and non-religious share this moral belief.And it must be enforced by govt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I see so many different opinions in this thread and I'm torn because there is no clear cut solution. Â Who is going to stand up and protect the unborn child if not us the people? Â Who is going to stand up and protect a mothers choice to live, and or let live, if not us the people? Â Who is going to stand up and protect the doctor that saved the mother when she made the choice to go on living if not us the people? Â I do know taking things into your own hands and taking someones life is never the answer, its not up to any single person to take another person's life away, its up to society as a whole to make life and death determinations, and we as a society have to stand united in following the laws that govern our land because if not, well, the alternative is just unthinkable. Also as a society we have to take a little more responsibility and accountability on how our words and actions effect some of the more impressionable folks out there because chances are if we had its very possible this terrible tragedy and others like it could be avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 my whole point is that religious beliefs are over lapped by or overlap moral beliefs. In fact you make my point. Thou Shall Not Murder.religious and non-religious share this moral belief.And it must be enforced by govt. Â Not always. The things that don't overlap obvious law and fall into religious realms only and they shouldn't be regulated by the government. I.E. intelligent design being forced into schools. Insisting the day open with a Christian prayer in schools and on and on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 What difference does it make where erynthered got this news? These reports are accurate. Â Â Ah, thats OK, dont mind my little poodle haired fluff boy. He follows me around all the time. Even when I'm right, I'm wrong, as far as he see's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Ah, thats OK, dont mind my little poodle haired fluff boy. He follows me around all the time. Even when I'm right, I'm wrong, as far as he see's it. yeah..but remember I've always maintained that when you are wrong your are right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 yeah..but remember I've always maintained that when you are wrong your are right! Â Â You're right!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 You're right!! Are you agreeing with that hack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Are you agreeing with that hack? you're cute when you're mad. Stupid..but cute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 you're cute when you're mad. Stupid..but cute. I'll be nice if you're buying me grouper sammies like you do eryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I'll be nice if you're buying me grouper sammies like you do eryn. Join us at Frenchy's next time. I think you're eligible for the Mouth-Breathers discount! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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