VABills Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 ICE will tell you why your wrong. He's still at the mailbox. Waiting. Waste of oxygen. BTW ICE, do yourself a favor and don't come around here anymore, unless you really love abuse. You're our problem, you've never known a solution. 105376[/snapback] Whatever. I've been there and done it. Thankfully only only in training, but trust me live rounds zinging around is very nerve racking. BTW, here is a nice pice about enemy tactics there right now. http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2004/11...1062004/1563055 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 City fighting/building clearing uses shotguns as the preferred weapons for the fire teams. Again, cross fire sits, get real tough well using shotguns, as anyone can guess. So you still have 9mm MP5's or handguns for at least 2 guys. 105367[/snapback] Ooooh...shotguns. BIG Geneva-convention no-no (apparently shotgun wounds are "too horrific" for warfare. Not like those benign 5.56 high-velocity rounds. ) Can't wait for that little pearl to hit the news. (Of course I recognize that they're a LOT better in close combat than a high-powered rifle, for their friendly fire limitations. Doubt CNN does...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted November 7, 2004 Author Share Posted November 7, 2004 Whatever. I've been there and done it. Thankfully only only in training, but trust me live rounds zinging around is very nerve racking. BTW, here is a nice pice about enemy tactics there right now. http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2004/11...1062004/1563055 105377[/snapback] Your post is a good read. as our friend Darin says, reality and facts suck. My problem here, is the stevestojan s that permeate our society will immediately jump (once they can form a pack) and try to wear us down with "politics". I gag. It's really all about this useless war hurting gay marriage and stem cell research, didn't you know? Lots of people are going to die, and it's a fugging reality show to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Ooooh...shotguns. BIG Geneva-convention no-no (apparently shotgun wounds are "too horrific" for warfare. Not like those benign 5.56 high-velocity rounds. ) Can't wait for that little pearl to hit the news.(Of course I recognize that they're a LOT better in close combat than a high-powered rifle, for their friendly fire limitations. Doubt CNN does...) 105385[/snapback] Yeah I know, but it's illegal to use .50 on humans as well, but we all know snipers use them for long range shots. Besides that's what we trained with. Just doing what I was told. Fukk'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Yeah I know, but it's illegal to use .50 on humans as well, but we all know snipers use them for long range shots. Besides that's what we trained with. Just doing what I was told. Fukk'em. 105389[/snapback] You murderous criminal. Don't you know international law only allows pillow fights? Just make sure you use the ones that are at least 25% down-filled extra-soft ones...hitting someone with a synthetic-filled medium-hard one is a war crime, you know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I'm no expert in this, but it's as I say. Needless destruction will be avoided, but if the situation warrants, things will be blown up. Perhaps Chicot can chime in to verify this, but Fallujah is pretty well run down and in disprepair after 18 years of war and neglect. If it can be stabilized, we'll pour a lot of money into rebuilding it better than before. 105112[/snapback] I think (though I'm by no means sure) that Fallujah largely escaped unscathed from both the first and second gulf wars, so the only damage it would have incurred would be from the aborted first attempt to capture it and from the bombardment of recent weeks. Other than that I don't really know much about the state of the city. Passed through it once or twice when I was a young infant - apparently in those days it was far smaller than it is now - blink and you'll miss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux of Borg Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 We use to train with shotguns in urban environments. The 3rd man would blow the lock with a shotgun and kick the door open. Then two riflemen would clear the room. The army started teaching target inquiry about 10 or so years ago. We'd practice going through mock cities with popup targets in it. The pop up targets were either a civilian or an enemy solider, and you had about 1/2 a second to decide and shoot. They have made major advancements in urban warfare in the past 10 years or so. I remember taping a mag light to the end of my m-16 and clearing the room with that. With the M-4, pac-4 and improvements in nightvision, clearing rooms got a lot easier. I even got to test the warrior 2000 garbage a few years back. What a nightmare! I'm glad the military scrapped that waste of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 About a year ago I stumbled upon an online version of the Army's Urban Battlefield Maneuvers (or some similarly named manual, I don't recall the exact name). It covered everything from points of fire, covering fire, strategies for clearing rooms, bounding, and even hopping over cellar windows so you don't get your ankles blown off. Just reading it kinda' freaked me out... 105030[/snapback] I found the Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) manual that I refered to above. I forgot I had saved it to my harddrive, but I just uploaded it (it's a 368 page pdf file) so you can take a look if you're so inclined. I'll leave it up for a week or two, so if you want to keep a copy for future reference, save it to your local PC. BTW, it was USMC, not army (sorry VA ). http://members.cox.net/chriscampbell2/MOUT.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I found the Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) manual that I refered to above. I forgot I had saved it to my harddrive, but I just uploaded it (it's a 368 page pdf file) so you can take a look if you're so inclined. I'll leave it up for a week or two, so if you want to keep a copy for future reference, save it to your local PC. BTW, it was USMC, not army (sorry VA ). http://members.cox.net/chriscampbell2/MOUT.pdf 105515[/snapback] Why you saying sorry. Why do you have this? Curiousity? Light reading? Wow, just glanced through it, things have advanced quickly since I was in. They seem to employ a lot of 2 man ops that we never were taught. Also, because we were taught FBI style clearing, grenade were a no-no. Kind of sucks when you wind up killing your own guys as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Why you saying sorry. Why do you have this? Curiousity? Light reading? 105600[/snapback] Apologized (tongue in cheek) for giving the army credit for a Marine doc. I have it because, as much as I hate the loss of life, I've been fascinated by the strategies of war. It stems from trips to Gettysburg and Fort Ticonderoga as a kid. We didn't have a whole lot of money to take many trips, and I made the most of the ones we were able to take. In high school I took four years of Latin, and learned a fair amount about the Roman Legion's tactics, and from there it just kind of took off. I'm by no means any kind of expert, but I've always found it to be interesting. Urban combat was the tactic I had read the least about, so I did some searching and found the above MOUT manual. I read a few sections, and forgot about it until this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD Jarhead Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I attanded my unit's Marine Corps Ball last night. During the ceremony we remembered the warriors preparing to get it on. It was a sobering moment. Here we were imbibing and enjoying the evening while our brothers were preparing for the fight of their life. I also have some very good friends there. For those of you who are thoughtful enough to keep our men in your prayers, please pray for divine wisdom for LtCol. Pat Malay. He is the CO of 3/5, and is from Buffalo. This man is a true professional and one man who I wouldn't want to meet in an alley. He is sure to lose many men, but if anyone can bring 'em all back alive, he can. I could tell you stories all day long about my experience with him as my Battalion XO, but suffice to say, there's no one I'd rather go into battle with. His Marines feel the same way about him. Those !@#$ing Iraqi's have no idea of the hell that is about to rain down on them... Semper Fi brothers and Godspeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I attanded my unit's Marine Corps Ball last night. During the ceremony we remembered the warriors preparing to get it on. It was a sobering moment. Here we were imbibing and enjoying the evening while our brothers were preparing for the fight of their life. I also have some very good friends there. For those of you who are thoughtful enough to keep our men in your prayers, please pray for divine wisdom for LtCol. Pat Malay. He is the CO of 3/5, and is from Buffalo. This man is a true professional and one man who I wouldn't want to meet in an alley. He is sure to lose many men, but if anyone can bring 'em all back alive, he can. I could tell you stories all day long about my experience with him as my Battalion XO, but suffice to say, there's no one I'd rather go into battle with. His Marines feel the same way about him. Those !@#$ing Iraqi's have no idea of the hell that is about to rain down on them... Semper Fi brothers and Godspeed. 105619[/snapback] Semper Fi and Happy Birthday my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Does anybody think that at 10,000, we might seem a little light in the ass for this one? Cya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD Jarhead Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Happy Birthday to you VA...Semper Fidelis brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Does anybody think that at 10,000, we might seem a little light in the ass for this one?Cya 105622[/snapback] Actually I was thinking last night, we have too many guys there. They are going to be stepping on each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Actually I was thinking last night, we have too many guys there. They are going to be stepping on each other. Really? That's an awful big city that's had far too much time to prepare. Factor in a hostile and well-armed civilian population and I would think you'd want to be as heavy-handed as possible to minimize casualties in an area so entrenched. But then again, I don't have a clue. And a happy B-day. Cya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Really? That's an awful big city that's had far too much time to prepare. Factor in a hostile and well-armed civilian population and I would think you'd want to be as heavy-handed as possible to minimize casualties in an area so entrenched. But then again, I don't have a clue.And a happy B-day. Cya 105631[/snapback] These are Marines. Different fighting style than Army. This is what I keep mentioning when people complain about the lake of troops in Afghanistan. basically you only have 10th mountain division, certain rangers and jarheads that can fight the cave fighting in Afghanistan. City fighting, unless you are completely destroying everything, is similar. Very few guys good at it, and you really have to do sector by sector clearing. Tanks, heavy artillary constantly engaged, close air support are going to be used sparingly. This will be Marines, morters, and choppers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I see a great deal of history appreciation here. A friend of mine is getting ready to publish a Civil War book on the history of the West Point class of 1862. Tremendously well researched and there are some really fascinating stories there. He graduated West Point himself (Retired Colonel) and is often asked to conduct seminars and such. The story is told primarily through the eyes of a central 19 year old cadet (who's room mate was GA Custer) and it deals very nicely with the politics of the time, what life was actually like at the academy in those days, and very detailed and scholarly descriptions of the battles they participated in. Goes into their later life experiences, for those who survived. He's located many rare period pictures to accompany the story. When it comes out, if anyone is interested, I will get some autographed copies. 105216[/snapback] Count me in. I'm a big collector of books and search and pay alot for first editions and autographed copies. Keep me posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I like it alot. I have seen the first two parts. There are 5 parts in all. Very detailed and well researched. I like his baseball series too though. I thought his History of Jazz documentarys were awesome! 105351[/snapback] That would be awesome. However don't know if I could swing a trip from CA for that. If you folks do something like that could somone film it? I would love to see that. I have tons of battlefield books and plan to spend good chunks of my retirement wandering those fields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Mission Accomplished! Hooray! whoops. We should all pray for the success of our troops, and the wisdom of their officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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