Tux of Borg Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Unless I'm very wrong, in my opinion and from what I've heard, Fallujah will not exist next week. Period. Except as rubble and dust. 105086[/snapback] I'll all for prepping the objective with artillery. I hope the enemy isn't dug in deep, such as the Japanese at Iwo Jima. Bombing in that case would be ineffective. I have a feeling that the US will try to take this city tactically. Which as most people suggested, will come at a high price. Best advice I ever got concerning urban warfare came from a Panama veteran. He said if all hell breaks lose, follow the guys who grew up in the inner city. They will always lead you to safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Saving Private Ryan I thought "Independence Day" sucked. VERY predictible. 105177[/snapback] Saving Private Ryan is one of my favorite movies of all time. I think the last movie I saw that met and exceeded expectations was the new Dawn of the Dead. I don't have anything to add about Fallujah that the smarter people haven't already said. God bless our troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I see a great deal of history appreciation here. A friend of mine is getting ready to publish a Civil War book on the history of the West Point class of 1862. Tremendously well researched and there are some really fascinating stories there. He graduated West Point himself (Retired Colonel) and is often asked to conduct seminars and such. The story is told primarily through the eyes of a central 19 year old cadet (who's room mate was GA Custer) and it deals very nicely with the politics of the time, what life was actually like at the academy in those days, and very detailed and scholarly descriptions of the battles they participated in. Goes into their later life experiences, for those who survived. He's located many rare period pictures to accompany the story. When it comes out, if anyone is interested, I will get some autographed copies. 105216[/snapback] Sounds like an interesting read, I love those types of historical 1st person narratives. I've learned much more about history by reading those than I ever have from reading a textbook. An autographed copy would be great. If it's not doable, promise you'll let me know the title and release date so I can swing by Borders and pick up a copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I see a great deal of history appreciation here. A friend of mine is getting ready to publish a Civil War book on the history of the West Point class of 1862. Tremendously well researched and there are some really fascinating stories there. He graduated West Point himself (Retired Colonel) and is often asked to conduct seminars and such. The story is told primarily through the eyes of a central 19 year old cadet (who's room mate was GA Custer) and it deals very nicely with the politics of the time, what life was actually like at the academy in those days, and very detailed and scholarly descriptions of the battles they participated in. Goes into their later life experiences, for those who survived. He's located many rare period pictures to accompany the story. When it comes out, if anyone is interested, I will get some autographed copies. 105216[/snapback] Sounds great- please keep us posted. I am watching the Ken Burns Civil War PBS series. Custer graduated last in his class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Sounds great- please keep us posted. I am watching the Ken Burns Civil War PBS series. Custer graduated last in his class 105246[/snapback] Never able to catch it from the begining, so I haven't watched a single episode. I know it had alot of hype, is it good? FWIW: I was bored to death with his Baseball doc. I trust it's better than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted November 7, 2004 Author Share Posted November 7, 2004 Sounds like an interesting read, I love those types of historical 1st person narratives. I've learned much more about history by reading those than I ever have from reading a textbook. An autographed copy would be great. If it's not doable, promise you'll let me know the title and release date so I can swing by Borders and pick up a copy. 105225[/snapback] Naw, I'll just get Brian to give me a few. He's really a smart, smart man. Knows this stuff off the top of his head. We spent an hour talking about Antietam one time, and 55 minutes of that was me listening. He's got it down to a level that it sounds like he was there. That's the kind of people I get to work around every day. Makes it worthwhile to go to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted November 7, 2004 Author Share Posted November 7, 2004 I'll all for prepping the objective with artillery. I hope the enemy isn't dug in deep, such as the Japanese at Iwo Jima. Bombing in that case would be ineffective. I have a feeling that the US will try to take this city tactically. Which as most people suggested, will come at a high price. Best advice I ever got concerning urban warfare came from a Panama veteran. He said if all hell breaks lose, follow the guys who grew up in the inner city. They will always lead you to safety. 105217[/snapback] I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. This is going to be a violent, though methodical assault, from what I understand. They will move in, and if there is a significant resistance from a particular spot, that spot will cease to exist. My concern is that these bad guys are getting pretty smart, and understand that it's over with-as you mention with Iwo Jima. they are going to take one for the team, so I expect there is going to be a multi-layered defense set up simply to kill as many Americans as possible as a goal, rather than any kind of stronghold type of defense. Ergo, rather than die pointlessly, as the "martyrs" will, I think it's likely that a lot of urban renewal will take place, block by block. They have the advantage of knowledge of the terrain. We have the advantage of firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I'll light some for him too. Of all the battlefields I've read about in WWII...if someone asked me which one I'd least like to step back in time and fight in, I'd say Stalingrad. Cold, wet, hungry...and both armies combined probably ran over 70% casualties over the course of that campaign. Urban combat deemphasizes training in favor of sheer mass. Frankly, it sucks, big-time. 105078[/snapback] You might take a look at Kwajalein, one of 7 major beach invasions my father landed on during WWII. Not only was it basically the Chicamuaga of the Pacific theatre, it was also possibly the most dramatic example during that war of a battle we had little or no reason to engage in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I see a great deal of history appreciation here. A friend of mine is getting ready to publish a Civil War book on the history of the West Point class of 1862. Tremendously well researched and there are some really fascinating stories there. He graduated West Point himself (Retired Colonel) and is often asked to conduct seminars and such. The story is told primarily through the eyes of a central 19 year old cadet (who's room mate was GA Custer) and it deals very nicely with the politics of the time, what life was actually like at the academy in those days, and very detailed and scholarly descriptions of the battles they participated in. Goes into their later life experiences, for those who survived. He's located many rare period pictures to accompany the story. When it comes out, if anyone is interested, I will get some autographed copies. 105216[/snapback] Count me in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I see a great deal of history appreciation here. A friend of mine is getting ready to publish a Civil War book on the history of the West Point class of 1862. Tremendously well researched and there are some really fascinating stories there. He graduated West Point himself (Retired Colonel) and is often asked to conduct seminars and such. The story is told primarily through the eyes of a central 19 year old cadet (who's room mate was GA Custer) and it deals very nicely with the politics of the time, what life was actually like at the academy in those days, and very detailed and scholarly descriptions of the battles they participated in. Goes into their later life experiences, for those who survived. He's located many rare period pictures to accompany the story. When it comes out, if anyone is interested, I will get some autographed copies. 105216[/snapback] Hell, I'll proof the manuscript if he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Enemy at the Gates, that's it. The waves of Russian soldiers being told they'd be shot in the back if they didn't fight, the sniping, and the stalemate that eventually led to Germany's retreat all seemed fairly accurate to my understanding of the battle. I imagine you're much better versed in Stalingrad's defense than I am, but I thought the film captured the spirit of the battle rather well. Knowing that 99% of the time "the book" is better than "the movie," would you recommend it as a worthwhile read in this instance? 105185[/snapback] "Enemy at the Gates" is a very good read...but it's NOT the movie. The book is about the entire campaign for Stalingrad, in a very generic and readable way (i.e. no hard-core military stuff in it, really). The movie was about Zaitzev - and a woefully inaccurate Zaitzev, at that. They merely took a few characters (Zaitzev, Major Koenig (Ed Harris' character), Tania Chernova (Rachel "Yum" Weisz)) and a few incidents and landmarks, and strung them togther with a none-too-good story. The initial battle scene, though, I thought was decent. Certainly lacked the historical sense of "We Were Soldiers" (which gave Vietnam vets I know flashbacks) or the D-Day scene from "Private Ryan", but it captured some things accurately - NKVD shooters at the backs of Russians, for instance, or the hazards of the Volga river crossings. Overall, it sucked...save for Mz. Weisz. (Which, by the way, is only spelled 'Weisz'. I have it on good authority it's pronounced "Come over here and sit on my face.") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Naw, I'll just get Brian to give me a few. He's really a smart, smart man. Knows this stuff off the top of his head. We spent an hour talking about Antietam one time, and 55 minutes of that was me listening. He's got it down to a level that it sounds like he was there. That's the kind of people I get to work around every day. Makes it worthwhile to go to work. 105264[/snapback] Think he'd be willing to give a battlefield tour? Maybe get a group together and make a day of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 You might take a look at Kwajalein, one of 7 major beach invasions my father landed on during WWII. Not only was it basically the Chicamuaga of the Pacific theatre, it was also possibly the most dramatic example during that war of a battle we had little or no reason to engage in. 105285[/snapback] I know Kwajalein. Thing about the Marshalls and Gilberts...horrible battles, but the terrain and climate wasn't likely to kill you. Not like Bouganville or Buna-Gona, which were hell on earth even without the fighting. And then, even beyond that, Stalingrad was an unholy cesspool. Guys got out of Kwajalein, Buna-Gona, or Iwo. If you fought at Stalingrad, you were dead. Starvation, disease, combat...ultimately, 4000 Germans got home from the fall of Stalingrad. About a million Russians died. When they construct buildings there, they still unearth bodies. Not do diminish anyone's valor in the Pacific (both the South and Central Pacific were hellish campaigns)...but a bloody Pacific battlefield is Tarawa, where the 2nd Marine Division took 3200 casualties...probably about 7%, but let's be safe and call it 10%. At Stalingrad, you're talking casualties in the 70-90% range, with a stevestojantty climate and environment to boot. For my money, I'd rather fight anywhere, including Leningrad, than Stalingrad. What other invasions was your father in? Must have been at Saipan and Leyte, I'd assume... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted November 7, 2004 Author Share Posted November 7, 2004 Think he'd be willing to give a battlefield tour? Maybe get a group together and make a day of it? 105319[/snapback] Wow, never thought of that. Great idea. This guy knows it down to which guns were pulled together to reconstitute batteries. Wonderful idea. It could also help him promote his work, I think. He's an SAIC contractor by trade, but has spent countless hours in old registrars in old courthouses. He's spent days reading and researching local documents at places like Manassass and Fredricksburg. This boy has done his homework. He's also one of those that if you sharpshoot, will look down at his shoes for a moment, smile and politely tell you that you might be right. That good. A true historian. Not like some people who have taken history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Never able to catch it from the begining, so I haven't watched a single episode. I know it had alot of hype, is it good? FWIW: I was bored to death with his Baseball doc. I trust it's better than that? 105261[/snapback] I like it alot. I have seen the first two parts. There are 5 parts in all. Very detailed and well researched. I like his baseball series too though. I thought his History of Jazz documentarys were awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Well, I'm back. Back to urban/building clearing. To be honest the enemy, except snipers are not really the issue. It's maintaining fire control, especially in cross fire situations. This is where the Sergeants come in and dictact fire supression when teams are clearing. No firing with identification first, which makes everything seem real slow during actual contact situations. Trust me, it's better then shooting your friends though. I would hope all the guys are commed up and maintaining constant communications. Blunt force city clearing will just turn into spotting and lasing roles, as other have eluded to. It will do a large amount of physical damage. Tough way to go, but it keeps our guys on the ground safer, but sure results in a lot of unintended damage and death of the bad guys and people hanging around a specific area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Well, I'm back. Back to urban/building clearing. To be honest the enemy, except snipers are not really the issue. It's maintaining fire control, especially in cross fire situations. This is where the Sergeants come in and dictact fire supression when teams are clearing. No firing with identification first, which makes everything seem real slow during actual contact situations. Trust me, it's better then shooting your friends though. I would hope all the guys are commed up and maintaining constant communications. Blunt force city clearing will just turn into spotting and lasing roles, as other have eluded to. It will do a large amount of physical damage. Tough way to go, but it keeps our guys on the ground safer, but sure results in a lot of unintended damage and death of the bad guys and people hanging around a specific area. 105360[/snapback] I know German infantry tactics in WWI and II turned the assumed relation between rifles and machine guns on its head: Germans pretty much invented the principle of the rifles in a squad supporting the squad MG, instead of vice-versa as in most armies in WWI and, to a degree, WWII. I don't suppose the Marines in Iraq have been doing anything similar with their riflemen and snipers, have they? To a raw neophyte like myself, given the situation, it seems to make a certain amount of tactical sense: the snipers do the killing, the riflemen support and protect (of course, I've never held a gun, so what the !@#$ do I know? ) And I know the first Fallujah "incident" months ago, the Marine snipers were both wildly successful and widely feared. They don't have any sort of doctrine for sniper-rifleman mutual support at the squad or fire-team level, do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted November 7, 2004 Author Share Posted November 7, 2004 Well, I'm back. Back to urban/building clearing. To be honest the enemy, except snipers are not really the issue. It's maintaining fire control, especially in cross fire situations. This is where the Sergeants come in and dictact fire supression when teams are clearing. No firing with identification first, which makes everything seem real slow during actual contact situations. Trust me, it's better then shooting your friends though. I would hope all the guys are commed up and maintaining constant communications. Blunt force city clearing will just turn into spotting and lasing roles, as other have eluded to. It will do a large amount of physical damage. Tough way to go, but it keeps our guys on the ground safer, but sure results in a lot of unintended damage and death of the bad guys and people hanging around a specific area. 105360[/snapback] But by the time CBS, ABC and CNN are done, it won't look that way. Look out for our resident experts. BF and Ice will tell us the deal. FOX had a retired Air Force general today as an expert on street fighting. News is pretty lame. Commed up is good. But some times too much individual info can get the TOC out of whack. When your working the jump, you just sometimes have to shut everyone up and take charge. I'll shut up on this one now. Sue wore me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I know German infantry tactics in WWI and II turned the assumed relation between rifles and machine guns on its head: Germans pretty much invented the principle of the rifles in a squad supporting the squad MG, instead of vice-versa as in most armies in WWI and, to a degree, WWII. I don't suppose the Marines in Iraq have been doing anything similar with their riflemen and snipers, have they? To a raw neophyte like myself, given the situation, it seems to make a certain amount of tactical sense: the snipers do the killing, the riflemen support and protect (of course, I've never held a gun, so what the !@#$ do I know? ) And I know the first Fallujah "incident" months ago, the Marine snipers were both wildly successful and widely feared. They don't have any sort of doctrine for sniper-rifleman mutual support at the squad or fire-team level, do they? 105362[/snapback] Kind of hard for a sniper to take out mutliples in a building especially interiors. Like I said, I know how I was trained. Basically you get snipers to support the clearing of the building by taking out available targets within and preventing support from coming in. Problem is you still have to send fire teams into the building to clear. Those are the guys you want commed up especially the leaders so they know where each other are and don't frag each other. In addition while snipers hate getting sensory overload they need it as well so they don't take out a good guy. It's hard though getting a bead on someone and just as your squeezing to have someone shout into your ear. Trust me on this one I know. BTW, yes you can train for this, and live fire trials are nerve racking. Anyone ever do a team insertion excercise into a airplain with everyone having live weapons and pop targets of good and bad guys. I have. 130 passangers, 7 dead, noone on the 4 man team injured and 5 terrorists down. Overall, I got a great e v a l for it. Simulation on but on a real airplane shell and real bullets. Single door insertion. We got to watch HRT do it as well, they cleared and evaled out to no passengers down, no injuries and 7 terrorists on there's. They also did it with a two door insertion, meaning ident and cross fire sit. They were amazing. Accuracy counted bigtime as shotguns are not use there. City fighting/building clearing uses shotguns as the preferred weapons for the fire teams. Again, cross fire sits, get real tough well using shotguns, as anyone can guess. So you still have 9mm MP5's or handguns for at least 2 guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted November 7, 2004 Author Share Posted November 7, 2004 ICE will tell you why your wrong. He's still at the mailbox. Waiting. Waste of oxygen. BTW ICE, do yourself a favor and don't come around here anymore, unless you really love abuse. You're our problem, you've never known a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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