Should The Government Have The Power To Force Parents

[blzrul]

My sister in law has cancer and decided recently to stop the treatment instead of prolonging the inevitable and living the rest of her short time here in pain.

 

A kid should have the same choice if the family agrees.

In this case the prognosis was good.

 

Here in WA we have "death with dignity" for the reasons you state, and I voted for it. But I think in THIS case the kid has been brainwashed to think the prayer, nuts and twigs will cure him.

[John Adams]

Not to let you slither from this debate, as you do with others, here is what is said: "Nemenhah Band, a Missouri-based religious group that believes in natural healing methods advocated by some American Indians."

 

Let me guess, you are going to rant on Indian naturalists? Of course not... freaking moron.

 

Ooh, Ooh, I will Mr. Kotter. Pick me Mr. Kotter.

 

Sounds like they are nuts too, just like Cristian fundamentalists.*

 

* Id. minus the "this story" part.

[Gene Frenkle]

Actually genius if you read it this has nothing to do with fundamentalist Christians, but the following of a Indian rituals and believes her son to be a medicine man and elder.

 

But nice swipe at Christianity. And if you think your *disclaimer* means anything why carry on about abortion when abortion is never mentioned in regards to the "bozos in the story", and those mentioned in the story are doing it on tribal grounds, not Christian grounds.

 

Not to let you slither from this debate, as you do with others, here is what is said: "Nemenhah Band, a Missouri-based religious group that believes in natural healing methods advocated by some American Indians."

 

Let me guess, you are going to rant on Indian naturalists? Of course not... freaking moron.

You think Christianity is exempt from this practice?

 

http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=104

 

I'm sure your flavor doesn't fall into this category, but this practice is hardly restricted to Indian Natrualists who, of course, follow an inferior set of nonsense when compared to your religion.

 

 

The Bible Reader Fellowship evangelical group, located in California, avoids medical treatment and fails to record births and deaths as required by law. (AP On Line, September 30, 1998)

 

Christian Science Church Parents are unwilling to seek medical help for their children. Children have and continue to die of cancer, ruptured appendixes, diphtheria, and other diseases that are curable with modern medicine. (Fraser, Caroline "Suffering Children And The Christian Science Church" The Atlantic Monthly, April 1995 ) http://www.theatlantic.com

 

Members of End Time Ministries have exclusive beliefs in faith healing. In addition to rejecting medical treatment for children, they also have unattended childbirth; this absence of medical intervention is known to be the cause of a significant number of stillborn babies. "Religious Groups That Reject Medical Treatment In Favor Of Prayer" 26 Feb. 2001. " Ontario Consultants On Religious Tolerance 26 Feb. 2001. http://www.religioustolerence.org

 

Followers of Oregon-based Christ Church believe that illness can be cured by prayer and anointing oil (Ottawa Citizen, June 26, 2000). Their followers refuse medical treatment for their children, believing that the 'laying on hands' leads to healing. This is a practice followed many Pentecostal sects. (Van Bliema. David Faith Or Healing" Time Magazine, Vol. 152, No. 9. August 31, 1998) http://www.time.com

 

Members of the Faith Tabernacle Congregation Church believe that God, inspired by prayers of true believers, will cure the sick. Seeking medical care is regarded as turning their backs on their faith and God himself (Larabee, Mark "The Battle Over Faith Healing" The Oregonian, November 28, 1998 ).

 

Faith Assembly Members were told to keep illness a secret. This is an attempt to hide medical information to government authorities, so the members will not be forced to obtain medical care (Larabee, Mark "The Battle Over Faith Healing"The Oregonian, November 28, 1998 ).

 

Followers of the General Assembly Church of The First Born state that a major component of their belief is the sovereign power of God to heal (Torkelson, Jean Rocky Mountain News July 28, 2000)).

 

The Faith Tabernacle Church encourages people to follow what they see as the will of God. Unfortunately, many feel that medical treatment is against God's will. The members use this reasoning to deny medical treatment to their children. "Religious Groups That Reject Medical Treatment In Favor Of Prayer" Ontario Consultants On Religious Tolerance 26 Feb. 2001 http://www.religioustolerence.org

[Gene Frenkle]

Further reading that should help you realize how wrong this whole situation is:

 

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/20/when...and-ethical-qa/

[StupidNation]

You think Christianity is exempt from this practice?

 

http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=104

 

I'm sure your flavor doesn't fall into this category, but this practice is hardly restricted to Indian Natrualists who, of course, follow an inferior set of nonsense when compared to your religion.

 

I'll answer your "pro-life" question since I'm not pro-murder like yourself. You can't fight every fight and you pick your battles. When secularists stop preaching the dogmas of no God, and anti-God, while killing innocent children by the million you'll get my support and many others. I also think that the "minor" status by state provision is a misnomer. I think people can make decisions before 18 and can be responsible for those decisions. Lest we forget men were men at 13 and 14 just 200 and 300 years ago and had their own lives and families on farms. I think people are less mature, but I don't think the young man is completely faultless unless he was actively brainwashed.

 

Also...

 

I don't consider those religions part of Christianity. Christianity, by definition, is the whole package. Someone who jumps and claims to be a Christian is not a Christian without embracing their entire faith and has material and formal apostolic succession.

 

But let's do your hypocrisy bit shall we? Secularists and Darwinists don't do anything wrong do they?

 

-Abortion (kills 10 million a year)

-Involuntary euthanasia

-Concentration camps

-Eugenics and a master race/DNA perfection

-Scientific experiments on live subjects destroying cognitive actions

-Killed more people in the 20th century than all centuries combined

 

 

Go ahead, tell me how deep your hypocrisy goes and your pseudo-anger and argumentation lies. I'll be waiting... Remember that the leaders of your religion believe in killing the unborn, have slaughtered countless millions in the forms of secular domination... but I don't want to spoil your brand of fiction too much.

[StupidNation]

Further reading that should help you realize how wrong this whole situation is:

 

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/20/when...and-ethical-qa/

 

It's wrong because he's born, but if he was in the womb we should rip him out piece and by piece and suck out his brains...

 

And that's ok because that's what they do in 2nd trimester abortions. Go look at this you creep and come back with the comparison of injustice:

http://conservativethoughts.us/wp-content/...sheadonside.JPG

 

You know I'm completely on the side of giving him medicine, but you have no right, or you lack the right to claim moral outrage when that is ok to you.

[Steely Dan]

I'll answer your "pro-life" question since I'm not pro-murder like yourself. You can't fight every fight and you pick your battles. When secularists stop preaching the dogmas of no God, and anti-God, while killing innocent children by the million you'll get my support and many others. I also think that the "minor" status by state provision is a misnomer. I think people can make decisions before 18 and can be responsible for those decisions. Lest we forget men were men at 13 and 14 just 200 and 300 years ago and had their own lives and families on farms. I think people are less mature, but I don't think the young man is completely faultless unless he was actively brainwashed.

 

Also...

 

I don't consider those religions part of Christianity. Christianity, by definition, is the whole package. Someone who jumps and claims to be a Christian is not a Christian without embracing their entire faith and has material and formal apostolic succession.

 

But let's do your hypocrisy bit shall we? Secularists and Darwinists don't do anything wrong do they?

 

-Abortion (kills 10 million a year)

-Involuntary euthanasia

-Concentration camps

-Eugenics and a master race/DNA perfection

-Scientific experiments on live subjects destroying cognitive actions

-Killed more people in the 20th century than all centuries combined

 

 

Go ahead, tell me how deep your hypocrisy goes and your pseudo-anger and argumentation lies. I'll be waiting... Remember that the leaders of your religion believe in killing the unborn, have slaughtered countless millions in the forms of secular domination... but I don't want to spoil your brand of fiction too much.

 

Do you wear clothes of mixed cloth?

 

Why don't we worry about flushing a few cells after all the orphans and babies are adopted by Americans. Until that happens then it shows that the so-called Christians don't really care about children.

 

BTW, how many adopted kids do you have?

[Gene Frenkle]

I'll answer your "pro-life" question since I'm not pro-murder like yourself. You can't fight every fight and you pick your battles. When secularists stop preaching the dogmas of no God, and anti-God, while killing innocent children by the million you'll get my support and many others. I also think that the "minor" status by state provision is a misnomer. I think people can make decisions before 18 and can be responsible for those decisions. Lest we forget men were men at 13 and 14 just 200 and 300 years ago and had their own lives and families on farms. I think people are less mature, but I don't think the young man is completely faultless unless he was actively brainwashed.

 

Also...

 

I don't consider those religions part of Christianity. Christianity, by definition, is the whole package. Someone who jumps and claims to be a Christian is not a Christian without embracing their entire faith and has material and formal apostolic succession.

 

But let's do your hypocrisy bit shall we? Secularists and Darwinists don't do anything wrong do they?

 

-Abortion (kills 10 million a year)

-Involuntary euthanasia

-Concentration camps

-Eugenics and a master race/DNA perfection

-Scientific experiments on live subjects destroying cognitive actions

-Killed more people in the 20th century than all centuries combined

 

 

Go ahead, tell me how deep your hypocrisy goes and your pseudo-anger and argumentation lies. I'll be waiting... Remember that the leaders of your religion believe in killing the unborn, have slaughtered countless millions in the forms of secular domination... but I don't want to spoil your brand of fiction too much.

Don't make assumptions about my stance on abortion jackass. If anything, I'm anti-abortion, but I have the ability to separate my political views from my moral compass. The abortion issue is not something anyone should base their politics on. Doing so makes it way to easy for manipulative politicians to scam my vote by agreeing with my morals. You obviously don't have this problem. I don't agree with the death penalty most of the time either, so I guess that makes me more Christ-like than some bible-thumpers here.

 

So...

 

Involuntary euthanasia - what the !@#$ does that even mean?

Concentration Camps and Eugenics and a master race/DNA perfection - oh, the old Darwin=Hitler argument...(whichh, btw, makes evolution wrong?)

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/joh...onofhitler.html

Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and microphones. Acclaimed Hitler biographer, John Toland, explains his heartlessness as follows: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god..."

 

And I'm assuming this is one item:

 

Scientific experiments on live subjects destroying cognitive actions

Killed more people in the 20th century than all centuries combined - again, what the !@#$ are you talking about?

 

Jesus Christ, tell me you don't 'believe in' evolution. Please do and confirm that you are who I think you are.

 

You are a !@#$tard.

[Gene Frenkle]

It's wrong because he's born, but if he was in the womb we should rip him out piece and by piece and suck out his brains...

 

And that's ok because that's what they do in 2nd trimester abortions. Go look at this you creep and come back with the comparison of injustice:

http://conservativethoughts.us/wp-content/...sheadonside.JPG

 

You know I'm completely on the side of giving him medicine, but you have no right, or you lack the right to claim moral outrage when that is ok to you.

A total and complete !@#$tard.

[olivier in france]

Here's the problem with that in this case. This is from the article;

 

Elbert added that he does not believe Daniel -- who, according to court papers, cannot read -- has enough information to make an informed decision regarding his treatment.

 

What to do when a child doesn't truly understand the peril is another layer of this case.

13 years old that can not read??!!!

That story says more about the state of education in our societies than about what should or should not do the government!

[olivier in france]

I'll answer your "pro-life" question since I'm not pro-murder like yourself. You can't fight every fight and you pick your battles. When secularists stop preaching the dogmas of no God, and anti-God, while killing innocent children by the million you'll get my support and many others. I also think that the "minor" status by state provision is a misnomer. I think people can make decisions before 18 and can be responsible for those decisions. Lest we forget men were men at 13 and 14 just 200 and 300 years ago and had their own lives and families on farms. I think people are less mature, but I don't think the young man is completely faultless unless he was actively brainwashed.

 

Also...

 

I don't consider those religions part of Christianity. Christianity, by definition, is the whole package. Someone who jumps and claims to be a Christian is not a Christian without embracing their entire faith and has material and formal apostolic succession.

 

But let's do your hypocrisy bit shall we? Secularists and Darwinists don't do anything wrong do they?

 

-Abortion (kills 10 million a year)

-Involuntary euthanasia

-Concentration camps

-Eugenics and a master race/DNA perfection

-Scientific experiments on live subjects destroying cognitive actions

-Killed more people in the 20th century than all centuries combined

 

 

Go ahead, tell me how deep your hypocrisy goes and your pseudo-anger and argumentation lies. I'll be waiting... Remember that the leaders of your religion believe in killing the unborn, have slaughtered countless millions in the forms of secular domination... but I don't want to spoil your brand of fiction too much.

 

 

reading you for a while i just thought you were plain stupid... but in fact you're sick! completly nuts!

[Keukasmallie]

Steely, let's teach your cat to swim!

 

For that you'll need a burlap bag (to use as sort of a swim suit), a neighbor's pond (no explanation needed), and a cinder block (for the cat to stand on if the water gets too deep. A) put the cat and the block in the bag; B) put the bag in the pond....voila!

[/dev/null]

Steely, let's teach your cat to swim!

 

For that you'll need a burlap bag (to use as sort of a swim suit), a neighbor's pond (no explanation needed), and a cinder block (for the cat to stand on if the water gets too deep. A) put the cat and the block in the bag; B) put the bag in the pond....voila!

 

And when the cat come back, we'll reward it with a trip to the Chinese Restaurant

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I read that the survival rate w/chemo is 85%, the mom wants to use Indian medicine.

 

The kid obviously is a minor, if he can't read @ 13 .. WTF...

 

So what do you do? FLASHBACK Do they pull another Terri Schiavo ?

The fate of Terri Schiavo was in the hands of a judge ... Taking the Senate’s lead, the House early Monday passed a bill to let the woman’s parents ask a federal judge to prolong Schiavo’s life by reinserting her feeding tube. President Bush signed the measure less than an hour later.

 

 

Point is you can't have it both ways.

 

The kid is a minor, and the states ALWAYS claim to have the child's best interest at heart.

 

Do you want the gov't mucking with your life or not?

[KD in CA]

Do you want the gov't mucking with your life or not?

 

No.

 

Wait. Unless it's Obama doing the mucking. Than it's ok.

[Steely Dan]

13 years old that can not read??!!!

That story says more about the state of education in our societies than about what should or should not do the government!

 

IIRC, the kid is mentally deficient.

 

 

Steely, let's teach your cat to swim!

 

For that you'll need a burlap bag (to use as sort of a swim suit), a neighbor's pond (no explanation needed), and a cinder block (for the cat to stand on if the water gets too deep. A) put the cat and the block in the bag; B) put the bag in the pond....voila!

 

 

And when the cat come back, we'll reward it with a trip to the Chinese Restaurant

 

[ieatcrayonz]

IIRC, the kid is mentally deficient.

If you're using mental deficiency as a standard, and the government defines what is and what is not mental deficiency, then you have ceded all power to the government. Congrats.

 

Some decisions are easy and some are not. It's not like Canada where the mental deficiency rate is so close to 100% that you might as well just have the policy cover everyone.

[Sketch Soland]

Some decisions are easy and some are not. It's not like Canada where the mental deficiency rate is so close to 100% that you might as well just have the policy cover everyone.

 

Ok, fine, let's go get waffles. If that's what it takes to get you to buy the Canatard Active Defense System.

[blzrul]

I wonder if this was dragged to the Supreme Court if they would rule in the states favor? Just a question.

 

The problems you cite are child neglect cases. This, IMO, doesn't fall completely under child neglect. They are trying to cure him. They just aren't using typical medical practices. I think they're idiots but I also believe they have the right to decide what is the best treatment for their child. If they were refusing any treatments at all that would be much different, IMO.

They are rejecting medical practices which have a high degree of success, for practices which do not. If they decided that amputating his limbs would save him, would that be their choice too?

 

A little extreme but...the child is at their mercy. I reject the idea that the child can make the decision, because his head is filled with the crap his parents feed him. He believes them. They're not lying to him necessarily but he can only make a "rational" decision if he has all the facts. His parents reject "typical medical practices" as facts.

 

Downsouth in some places in the old days, they'd put a knife under the bed of a woman in labor to "cut the pain". That sounds silly today but no sillier than eating nuts and twigs to cure cancer.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

No.

 

Wait. Unless it's Obama doing the mucking. Than it's ok.

 

where did you pull that from? Hope it doesn't smell too much.

The assumption you just made would be like me saying that You dedended Bush 1000% even when you knew he was wrong.

 

 

I don't want Obama holding special sessions in Congress to address this kind of stuff.

 

For starters

 

I want Obama to fix the economy and end the Afghan war effort.

 

Then I want him to address / fix the illegal immigration problem w/o free amnesty.