who did us worse, TDonohue or Marv 2nd incarnation?

[Red]

letting pat williams walk is unforgivable. couple that with no real plan on how to build a team, and the entire Donahoe era was a complete waste that set the team back a decade. yeah, he found some talent with some draft picks, but he never knew how to work the draft to build a team. throw in the fact that hiring mularkey lead to the loss of rusty jones...

 

i dont know, i dont have many positive memories from the Donahoe era. so far, i like the direction the team has taken since Marv stepped in and got the train back on the tracks. Levy may not have completed his plan to perfection, but at least he's given the FO a blueprint to follow.

 

Absolutely!

 

I would add that letting Winfield go along with Pat Williams really hurt the 'D'. I think that they have been trying to fill these voids for some time...

 

...and I forgot about Rusty Jones. It's funny, but you make a good point. When he was head of Strength and Conditioning, it always seemed as though it was the other teams players that were always getting hurt in the game.

 

He was a true leader and is probably the best at what he does in the NFL. It was bad for the Bills to lose someone of his caliber.

 

On a side note, players are on so much juice these days...HGH, Testosterone, etc, etc...I think that with the little that medical science knows about the sheer amounts of anabolics that these guys take, and with the forces at work in the game and simply moving bodies of their size, may have alot to do with these strange injuries these past few years (Pectoral tears, biceps tears, achilles tendon injuries...).

 

Just me, but I think the drugs have alot to do with it.

 

How are the Bears the past few years in the injury department?

[Bill from NYC]

I have never, ever, seen a confirmed report that some team was willing to trade up to #8. We heard all kind of crap here and elsewhere at that time, but nobody has ever said a thing about it. All we did hear is that we took the guy that people behind us wanted, but weren't willing to trade up for. I acknowledge that Marv could have poison-pilled any trade offers, but we simply don't know what happened for real.

 

For the record, I actually heard Marv say after the 06 draft (on Sirius) that he had numerous offers to trade down. He went on to say that one involved more than a 2nd round pick.

 

I can't prove to you that I heard him say this, nor can I back it up with a link. I am simply putting my word out there to you for you to either believe or disbelieve.

[Orton's Arm]

I have never, ever, seen a confirmed report that some team was willing to trade up to #8.

I have, and it related to a trade with Denver. Marv said something along the lines of, "why risk losing out on the player you want when all you're getting in return is a second round pick?" or something to that effect. Below is a quote from a Peter King article about this:

 

Specifically, did the Bills do the right thing in staying at No. 8, instead of taking a fairly lucrative offer of a second- and fourth-round draft pick from Denver to move down seven spots in the first round?

[The Dean]

For the record, I actually heard Marv say after the 06 draft (on Sirius) that he had numerous offers to trade down. He went on to say that one involved more than a 2nd round pick.

 

I can't prove to you that I heard him say this, nor can I back it up with a link. I am simply putting my word out there to you for you to either believe or disbelieve.

 

 

I don't recall "numerous" in the mix, but Marv did say he had offers to trade down...but they were too far down, and he was convinced Whitner would be gone. He is likely correct, if we are talking about dropping down 7 spots.

 

All of this is interesting chatter, but shouldn't be the basis on how one judge's Marv's stint as GM.

 

I'd judge him on what he DID, and not what he didn't do, as nobody knows where that path would have led. If you want to judge a guy by what he didn't do, then should he get credit for every crappy player he didn't draft, right? It's just a flawed evaluation process, IMO.

[Bill from NYC]

I'd judge him on what he DID, and not what he didn't do, as nobody knows where that path would have led. If you want to judge a guy by what he didn't do, then should he get credit for every crappy player he didn't draft, right? It's just a flawed evaluation process, IMO.

 

I see your point. To put it a different way, my main issue with Marv as GM (aside from Jauron) is that he chose to rebuild this team by allocating his best draft resources to defensive backs, and actually lost a first day pick in the process of doing so.

 

You see, building from the lines isn't simply "my" way of doing things. This is the proven method of building a winning team. Why put new Andersen windows on a house with a crumbling foundation? That is what Levy and Jauron tried to do. It appears to be all they know in terms of building a football team.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

I have no doubt the game day prep/coaching is the worst now it's been in a long time.

 

What an incredibly ignorant statement to make. Have you ever been a part of the game day prep/coaching? How are you even remotely qualified to comment on such? Are all of your positions in life based on speculative assumption, or are you capable of actually verifying and supporting your statements with facts? This is the typical BS that we see regarding Jauron on the MB that proves that Bills fans are stupid.

[bbb]

I think that Marv it is overestimated what Marv's decision-making duties were during his GM tenure, and underestimated during his coaching tenure.

 

I think he was little more than a figurehead as a GM. He was there to make us feel good about the Bills again. (I've had somebody who would know pretty much confirm this).

 

However, I think during the Levy/Polian/Butler era that Levy doesn't get any credit for molding those teams, and I always thought he had some major input into draft/trade decisions. And, that is what seemed to have been said when he was hired as GM. Polian and Butler were proteges of him, not the other way around.

[zazie]

What an incredibly ignorant statement to make. Have you ever been a part of the game day prep/coaching? How are you even remotely qualified to comment on such? Are all of your positions in life based on speculative assumption, or are you capable of actually verifying and supporting your statements with facts? This is the typical BS that we see regarding Jauron on the MB that proves that Bills fans are stupid.

You don't have to be in the meetings to know that the prep work and game day coaching sucks.

 

You only have to watch the games.

 

Every other team is much better prepped for us than vice versa. Sadly, we are also an easy team to gameplan against.

[The Dean]

I see your point. To put it a different way, my main issue with Marv as BM (aside from Jauron) is that he chose to rebuild this team by allocating his best draft resources to defensive backs, and actually lost a first day pick in the process of doing so.

 

You see, building from the lines isn't simply "my" way of doing things. This is the proven method of building a winning team. Why put new Andersen windows on a house with a crumbling foundation? That is what Levy and Jauron tried to do. It appears to be all they know in terms of building a football team.

 

 

Building from the lines is ONE way of doing things, not the only way...but, I see your point. But, if you would consider the context of what Marv had, and had to deal with, you can see some of the logic in his decisions.

 

If your foundation is crumbling, you can tear the house down and rebuild from the bottom. But, you are in for some real hardship while the thing gets rebuilt. In the Bills case, that would have probably meant a couple of years with double-digit losses, and declining attendance. Of course, it is possible to do it faster, if you are willing to toss around a LOT of major money, and take a lot of risks. Do you think Ralph would have gone for that?

 

Of course, a football team isn't a house, so the analogies can get pretty stretched. But it isn't as if Marv ignored the foundation/lines either, as that is the area the Bills really spent their big FA money. There is something to be said about the Bills limited ability to identify quality linemen, in FA and the draft. And that, combined with their exceptional ability to identify/develop DBs made the situation look more skewed than their efforts to address the issues.

 

I simply can't understand how someone who took over a complete shambles and improved the team, made it younger and with greater depth can be considered a failure.

[The Dean]

I think that Marv it is overestimated what Marv's decision-making duties were during his GM tenure, and underestimated during his coaching tenure.

 

I think he was little more than a figurehead as a GM. He was there to make us feel good about the Bills again. (I've had somebody who would know pretty much confirm this).

 

However, I think during the Levy/Polian/Butler era that Levy doesn't get any credit for molding those teams, and I always thought he had some major input into draft/trade decisions. And, that is what seemed to have been said when he was hired as GM. Polian and Butler were proteges of him, not the other way around.

 

 

Marv was far more than a figurehead, but he wasn't a controlling GM in the style of TD, for example. But, as he was the leader I think the ultimate blame, and criticism, rightly falls on him. What is dumb, though, is to believe that Marv's performance was in any way due to incompetence or inexperience. Because of how he ran the FO, the experience of Ralph, Jauron, Modrak, etc. was added to that of Levy. Had he tried to be a dominant GM, then his inexperience would have been an issue.

 

Marv set the tone for the FO, and the rebuild, and largely built the management team that is currently in place. And I have people who definitely confirmed this. I'm pretty sure that was his goal from the start. Sometimes to outsiders, or those not familiar with how a team management approach works, it can appear that the group's leader isn't really doing much.

[Delete This Account]

Clements' contract expired while TD was the GM.

That's inaccurate. Clements was still under contract in January when Tom Donahoe was let go. It was the new regime that then tagged Clements, so theoretically he wasn't one contract and out. It was the new regime that also struck a deal with Nate, assuring him he wouldn't be tagged again if he agreed to show up to minicamps.

 

jw

[Bill from NYC]

If your foundation is crumbling, you can tear the house down and rebuild from the bottom. But, you are in for some real hardship while the thing gets rebuilt. In the Bills case, that would have probably meant a couple of years with double-digit losses, and declining attendance. Of course, it is possible to do it faster, if you are willing to toss around a LOT of major money, and take a lot of risks. Do you think Ralph would have gone for that?

 

This paragraph is very interesting. If the goal was to avoid double digit losses and attendance declines, then Marv did accomplish his mission in that sense. This is a given.

The problem is that with Jauron (who was probably hired as an extension of Marv in many ways), the solution has become the problem. The "play not to lose," non-aggressive attitude, and lack of overall size on defense has been killing this team.

Wood and Levitre were huge steps in the right direction, but they still went after a bunch of little defensive backs. Hopefully, Jauron will be out of town soon.

[dave mcbride]

You guys are missing the obvious. This is a quarterback driven league, and if Edwards pans out, the argument is finito. The Rob Johnson choice was wrong, Losman was a grade A bust, and Bledsoe failed as well.

[billsfan89]

Considering how much time and resources TD had it is really unforgivable that this team never went to the playoffs once. He swung and missed on the Mike Williams pick, he wiffed on Losman and gave up a ton of picks for him which set this franchise back years for several reasons. Than he missed on two coach hires. Yeah TD had the Lee Evans pick and the Willis Mcgahee pick wasn't terrible considering we got a few good years out of him and than turned him around for two third round picks. TD also let Pat Williams walk.

 

Marv had only two drafts and one coach hire. He had the Whitner pick but Whitner is a good safety its just there were other players we should have taken. But Whitner is no where near the mistake Mike Williams or JP was. Marv also had the Dockery signing which turned out to be terrible. Marv had less time and less resources so while he did not have what i would call a good tenure I would say it was much better than TD.

 

To TD's credit we had a good defense but he had no idea on how to build an offense. He tried to inject Bledsoe but than gave him no o-line and no Tight end and at times no recivers. Than he wanted to build an offense around Losman, Evans, and Mcgahee and two out of the three are not on the team anymore. But he never got Losman a second target or an offensive line or a tight end. Than the defense fell apart due to the Pat Williams mistake and we were left with nothing but wasted time and very little talent on the team. TD left the team the way he inherited it.

 

At least Marv Put the team in a better position than when he left. Despite some of his mistakes.

[zazie]

You guys are missing the obvious. This is a quarterback driven league, and if Edwards pans out, the argument is finito. The Rob Johnson choice was wrong, Losman was a grade A bust, and Bledsoe failed as well.

I still contend, Jauron could not win with Tom Brady.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I still contend, Jauron could not win with Tom Brady.

 

 

Ya, because Dick doesn't cheat and Brady would be left in the dark without any inside information that Belicheck provides him.