Chandler#81 Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Marv was less than average. TD was worse than less than average. This is a painful thread. Yup. Asking 'who's worse' on a team with 1 winning season in a decade is akin to asking "who's uglier, Rosie O'Donnell or Rosanne Barr?" The result is: they're both ugly. Does it really matter to what extent?
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Yup. Asking 'who's worse' on a team with 1 winning season in a decade is akin to asking "who's uglier, Rosie O'Donnell or Rosanne Barr?" The result is: they're both ugly. Does it really matter to what extent? Roseanne Barr has her moments.
Ray Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 A lot depends on this year. If Trent, Marshawn and Poz continue to improve and have great seasons then that draft becomes one of the best in Bills' history. A lot depends on this year and how those guys perform. But TDs three 1st round busts/luxury picks were horrendous and set the franchise back years! Three 1st round busts kills you.....you need at least good pruduction out of those picks.
bills_believer Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 I guess the way I look at it is this: during TD's reign, we all knew he was calling all of the shots. Thus, TD deserves the praise or criticism for what unfolded during his reign. With 0 playoff appearances, two swings and misses at head coaches and questionable personnel moves, obviously TD winds up with less than a passing grade (regardless of what Mort thinks). In Marv's case, he was more of a figure-head than anything else. Thus, it is difficult to praise ro criticize him for decisions that were made. However, I will say this: I like the current foundation of this team, which was built mostly through the draft, much better than the patch-work that TD had assembled by the time he left. And, I am also NOT ready to call Jauron a mistake just yet. While it is hard to argue that he's NOT coming off a brutal 2008 coaching job, I happen to think that he did a pretty good job in 2006 and 2007. Interesting topic, but I feel it isn't even close. Donahoe was a lot worse. Levy made modest improvements to start righting the ship. Donahoe/Williams dismantled a playoff caliber defense. I remember one of the players questioning why they were changing from a 3-4 defense which was highly ranked to another defense scheme. Williams response that the Titans had the best defense with his scheme (but they had invested a lot of high draft choices in making that defense). Arrogance just seemed to be the thing that characterized the TD era. It seemed like he was trying to prove that he was smarter than everyone else. He had some good drafts, and FA acquistions, but at some key points like the Mike Williams draft he really bombed I think you have to give Levy an imcomplete. I also think Jauron might still turn out OK. It also seems like they are willing to correct their mistakes and learn from them. Like after pursuing smallish DT's, they realize they need a big guy like Stroud and going out and get him.
Bill from NYC Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Marv did a credible job as GM, too. It's just that his one huge mistake Juaron, was/is just SO bad. I strongly disagree. Levy entered the 06 draft with early picks, as well as an extra 3rd. The Bills walked away with a couple of so-so players (Williams and Butler) and a #8 selection who might be a slightly better than average safety. Not good. He missed on and/or neglected both lines, AND he hired Jauron. It was (and still is in a sense) a very sad comedy of errors for Bills Fans, and it won't (imo) have a chance for a happy ending until they get rid of Jauron, who is certainly one of the worst head coaches I have ever seen.
Dan Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 I would say that the premise of this whole thread is flawed. Levy was here for 2 years, plus he readily admitted that he did not control all aspects of the team. By contrast TD was here for 5 years and had complete control of all aspects of the team. So how do you really compare the two? However, through shear longevity, coupled with several bad coaching hires, I would say that TD's reign was far more detrimental to the team. Interestingly, for all the flack the current FO gets, they seem to be making more sound decisions than the two previous FO incarnations. If Brandon could finally bring in a decent head coach, it would be a slam dunk.
The Senator Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Roseanne Barr has her moments. Yeah, but Rosie O'Donnell was a homecoming queen and prom queen in H.S.
Fewell733 Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Not close at all. While success hasn't been found in either yet, it's too soon to judge the drafts of Levy and the verdict is clearly in on Donahoe. What really separates the two though is Donahoe's use of an unsustainable approach to building a team. Bledsoe was a shot in the dark - fun for a while, but ultimately only that - and then cut the cord too early for a guy that didn't know the game yet in Losman. Let Pat Williams walk for really no reason at all. Brought in old overpaid players on defense like Sam Adams. Never addressed the offensive line outside of a colossal bust of top 5 pick, even though it was clearly our weakest link. It could be that a lot of these choices were through the ego of Gregg Williams, and the empty shirt of Mike Mularkey, but by the time he left the team was basically in ruins and needing rebuilding from the ground up.
The Senator Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Not close at all. While success hasn't been found in either yet, it's too soon to judge the drafts of Levy and the verdict is clearly in on Donahoe. What really separates the two though is Donahoe's use of an unsustainable approach to building a team. Bledsoe was a shot in the dark - fun for a while, but ultimately only that - and then cut the cord too early for a guy that didn't know the game yet in Losman. Let Pat Williams walk for really no reason at all. Brought in old overpaid players on defense like Sam Adams. Never addressed the offensive line outside of a colossal bust of top 5 pick, even though it was clearly our weakest link. It could be that a lot of these choices were through the ego of Gregg Williams, and the empty shirt of Mike Mularkey, but by the time he left the team was basically in ruins and needing rebuilding from the ground up. Agreed - and Marv was brought in basically to stem the damage from the TD era. What will folk's say about Marv's GM legacy if the Bills go 10-6 or better and make the playoffs? What will they say about Jauron?
Tsaikotic Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Yeah, but Rosie O'Donnell was a homecoming queen and prom queen in H.S. wow..I sure would have hated to have been in that class.. anyways, I forgot TD had full control and in my earlier post I stated R. Wilson had most control of hiring coaches...I guess I was wrong...But I still say he had some control, especially over how much TD could spend on a coach...Wilson probably said "tom..go get your coach of your choice..just don't spend more than 1-2 mil/year" (I don't know how much coaches got paid then or now..LOL)
JAMIEBUF12 Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 The hiring of Jauron essentially means that Marv was responsible for roughly the same amount of losing seasons as TD. Hard to believe, but there it is. Draft wise, TD was not good, Mike Williams et al. But did Marv do better? An over-rated Whitner, a couple of busts, a few diamonds in the rough. Not great though. Maybe it is equal in futility, Marv and TD? i say td hands down....if td didn't fug the job up so bad ,marv never would have been hired.i will never ever forgive td for letting pat williams go.i also will never forgive td for ditching the 3/4 defense.and most important i blame td for those fugly uniforms the bills wear today.....
Orton's Arm Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Maybe it is equal in futility, Marv and TD? There are a lot of things that could be said in that discussion. I'll focus on just one thing--how the two of them did with their first round picks--while recognizing that a lot of other factors go into how one scores them overall. I've assigned each first round pick a grade, as follows: A = exceeds expectations for the pick B = meets expectations for the pick C = falls below expectations for the pick, but still a solid starter D = falls seriously below expectations for the pick, but still someone you'd like to have on your roster F = outright bust Longevity is also factored in. If a player went first contract and out, I'll give him a significantly lower score than he'd have gotten if he'd stayed here his whole career. TD's first round picks: Nate Clements: C (This would have been an A had Clements not gone first contract and out.) Mike Williams: F Drew Bledsoe: D (This would have been a C had Bledsoe lasted longer than three years.) Willis McGahee: C Lee Evans: B J.P. Losman: F Average: 1.5 (on a scale of 0 - 4) Marv's first round picks: Donte Whitner: C John McCargo: D Marshawn Lynch: C (His grade is lowered a bit by the fact that he probably won't have a very long career.) Average: 1.7 (on a scale of 0 - 4) As you can see, there isn't a whole lot of difference between how Marv and TD did in the first round. Between them, the two general managers found no As, and only one B. When you think about the Bills' lack of game changers, their lack of superstar players, it comes back to the lack of As and Bs in the first round of the draft.
Dan Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 There are a lot of things that could be said in that discussion. I'll focus on just one thing--how the two of them did with their first round picks--while recognizing that a lot of other factors go into how one scores them overall. I've assigned each first round pick a grade, as follows:A = exceeds expectations for the pick B = meets expectations for the pick C = falls below expectations for the pick, but still a solid starter D = falls seriously below expectations for the pick, but still someone you'd like to have on your roster F = outright bust Longevity is also factored in. If a player went first contract and out, I'll give him a significantly lower score than he'd have gotten if he'd stayed here his whole career. TD's first round picks: Nate Clements: C (This would have been an A had Clements not gone first contract and out.) Mike Williams: F Drew Bledsoe: D (This would have been a C had Bledsoe lasted longer than three years.) Willis McGahee: C Lee Evans: B J.P. Losman: F Average: 1.5 (on a scale of 0 - 4) Marv's first round picks: Donte Whitner: C John McCargo: D Marshawn Lynch: C (His grade is lowered a bit by the fact that he probably won't have a very long career.) Average: 1.7 (on a scale of 0 - 4) As you can see, there isn't a whole lot of difference between how Marv and TD did in the first round. Between them, the two general managers found no As, and only one B. When you think about the Bills' lack of game changers, their lack of superstar players, it comes back to the lack of As and Bs in the first round of the draft. skew your data much?
The Dean Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 skew your data much? HA/EA has no conception of how to use data. His analysis is, as usual, a total disaster.
Orton's Arm Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 I'm not going to waste my time arguing with people who very clearly have nothing intelligent to contribute to the discussion. I will, however, be willing to discuss my post with people whose comments have (gasp!) actual information content.
Magox Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 I'm not going to waste my time arguing with people who very clearly have nothing intelligent to contribute to the discussion. I will, however, be willing to discuss my post with people whose comments have (gasp!) actual information content. Is that a disclaimer?
tennesseeboy Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 We would have done better with Roseanne Barr and Rosie O'donnell at GM rather than Marv or Dick. Hell..we'd do better with Rosie and Roseanne on the offensive line!
BuffaloBill Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Go back an re-read my disclaimer. One thing that is not mentioned in the posts I reviewed is how much more power TD had while at OBD. Not that this lets Levy off the hook as I thnk Marv was not an outstanding GM but TD had more chances. TD seemed to get too hung up om making risky or flashy draft choices. MaGahee comes to mind - that was an aboslutely poor timed and wasted pick. Arguably the Bills could have gone after him in a later round. I do not think Marv's heart was in the role - hence his relatively sudden departure. All in all neither did the franchise any favors but tell me outside the Polian (mostly) and Butler yewars have we ever had a good GM? I would say no. This is the bubble year for the current regime. If the Bills make the playoffs we get another year. If they do not make the playoffs we will see who comes in next.
Arkady Renko Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 There are a lot of things that could be said in that discussion. I'll focus on just one thing--how the two of them did with their first round picks--while recognizing that a lot of other factors go into how one scores them overall. I've assigned each first round pick a grade, as follows:A = exceeds expectations for the pick B = meets expectations for the pick C = falls below expectations for the pick, but still a solid starter D = falls seriously below expectations for the pick, but still someone you'd like to have on your roster F = outright bust Longevity is also factored in. If a player went first contract and out, I'll give him a significantly lower score than he'd have gotten if he'd stayed here his whole career. TD's first round picks: Nate Clements: C (This would have been an A had Clements not gone first contract and out.) Mike Williams: F Drew Bledsoe: D (This would have been a C had Bledsoe lasted longer than three years.) Willis McGahee: C Lee Evans: B J.P. Losman: F Average: 1.5 (on a scale of 0 - 4) Marv's first round picks: Donte Whitner: C John McCargo: D Marshawn Lynch: C (His grade is lowered a bit by the fact that he probably won't have a very long career.) Average: 1.7 (on a scale of 0 - 4) As you can see, there isn't a whole lot of difference between how Marv and TD did in the first round. Between them, the two general managers found no As, and only one B. When you think about the Bills' lack of game changers, their lack of superstar players, it comes back to the lack of As and Bs in the first round of the draft. Your grade of Clements is unfair. If he was good, he was good, no matter how long he stayed with the team. TD certainly was not the one to let him go either... Lee Evans deserves an A and Lynch a B+.
Recommended Posts