who did us worse, TDonohue or Marv 2nd incarnation?

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

The hiring of Jauron essentially means that Marv was responsible for roughly the same amount of losing seasons as TD.

 

Hard to believe, but there it is.

 

Draft wise, TD was not good, Mike Williams et al. But did Marv do better? An over-rated Whitner, a couple of busts, a few diamonds in the rough. Not great though.

 

Maybe it is equal in futility, Marv and TD?

 

you are kidding right?

 

Teflon Don netted us a few good players, but did MORE damage than good.

[VJ91]

I think that you guys have it..... all wrong putting it solely on the GM's.

 

You should be looking at the talent 'evaluators'..... That would be John Guy and Tom Modrak.

They came onboard with Donahoe, and for some strange reason are still with the team.....

The draft this year, I believe, is one of those that has brought many talented players for hopefully many years to come and closed some of the gap between the Bills and other playoff teams.

But if not, I think all of the blame needs to go to Modrak and Guy for their pathetic work this past decade.

 

Interesting how Guy and Modrak seem to have had better "insight" under Russ Brandon these past two drafts, then they did under Donahoe and Levy. You blame them more then the GM's, however they seemed to do a better job after Donahoe and Levy left. You are proving that most of the blame therefore should be on the GM's they worked for! We will never know what Modrak and Guy were telling Donahoe and Levy all those years, since they have way to much interest in not burning bridges in the NFL to keep their current jobs. But here's one example for you: John Guy may have suggested that Levy sign a different free agent guard then Dockery, but Marv and Ralph may have over-ruled him for all we fans know!!

[VJ91]

you are kidding right?

 

Teflon Don netted us a few good players, but did MORE damage than good.

 

Who's Teflon Don?

[OCinBuffalo]

Well O.C, maybe a little.

 

I hardly consider Jason Peters to be "bad," and it should be noted that TD did bring him in while Jauron and co. let him walk. Even if you don't want to assign blame to the "Levy Era" for this (not unreasonable I suppose), TD shoud get credit for getting him to Buffalo, dontcha think?

Yeah, but again, I argue that we had at least a serviceable team, even a playoff-caliber team(talent wise, not cap wise) when TD took over form Butler. The fact that TD essentially got lucky with an UDFA doesn't excuse drafting special teams/gadget/long shot players for 3 years in a row and failing miserably on scouting both Williams AND JP. I can give a GM one mulligan, not 2.

 

Therefore, clearly Levy had a much more difficult job than Donahoe did. Comparing them by years or wins or whatever is silly when you realize that TD started at 0 and Levy/Brandon started at -10.

 

Cap hell, yeah, yeah, yeah, BS. Multiple teams have bailed themselves out of that in a year, so it's hardly some magic trick that only TD was able to do. You still get to draft in cap hell years, and high draft picks the year right after.

[Peevo]

This is a great topic. Now that we have a few years of work under Levy/Jauron et al, we can objectively compare how much "better" we are from the dredges of the Donahoe years.

 

Donahoe's 1st round picks, for the most part, were pretty awful. Bledsoe (traded a #1), Williams, McGahee, Losman. McGahee is still a player in this league, and has had some success since leaving, so in a player perspective, he still can play, but for Buffalo, obviously, this is nill. So I think on McGahee its a special case since Williams and Losman simply can't play in the league as it stands.

 

There ARE believe it or not some Donahoe hits in the draft. The 2001 draft was really good, to be honest. Nate Clements, Aaron Schobel, Travis Henry, Jonas Jennings all in the first day. That's pretty impressive. 3 Pro Bowlers, and 4 starters in day 1? OK. Sure, Henry is a felon now, and Jennings is certainly up there, and making a ton of money on bad knees in SF w/Clements, but you can't deny, at the time, the efficacy of that draft.

 

Jason Peters, "the best LT in football" was a Donahoe scrapheep find. As was Jabari Greer who is a starter in this league. Lee Evans, Roscoe Parrish, Josh Reed are still here. How about those Bills Special Teams? Moorman, Lindell, McGee, and Parrish all Donahoe finds. Angelo Crowell is still a starter in this league. Takeo Spikes and Fletcher had a couple really good years here. Despite his many mistakes, and I do credit a lot of our problems to Donahoe's long term errors, but he DID actually get some talent in here, despite everyone's hatred for the man.

 

Levy has his busts too, McCargo is glaring. Whitner is arguable suggestion, especially at 8th overall. You need Ed Reed at 8th overall, not a guy with I still think only 1 INT in his career. They have a good running back when he's not suspended or arrested. I like Edwards, lets just hope he stays healthy.

 

All in all, the above poster with regards to average record put it best. We haven't really had much difference. Average record w/TD 6-10, avg w/Jauron/Levy/Brandon, 7-9. Donahoe DOES have a winning season on his record, and an 8-8. So that does count in his favor. But nonetheless, we're still almost 10 years removed from the postseason, and still a coupel BIG holes to fill if we really wanna compete next year. I actually have to do work now. Out.

[Magox]

Donohue did worse for the organization than Marv. To sum it up as quickly as possible, Donohue put the Bills in salary cap jail for a couple years, and Marv helped this team clean house. Since Marv was having to size down the team due to salary cap implications where as Donohue was spending wildly, and that both regime's produced similar records, I give the nod to Marv.

[C.Biscuit97]

If we weren't Bills' fans and just miserable (I guess a playoff less decade can do that), we would realize that we have a very young and very talented roster. TD built a team that was vet heavy. It's one thing to lose with young players. However, it's very bad to lose with veteran players.

 

While there are some faults with Levy's reign, overall the positives far out weigh the negative. He had to almost completely rebuild from the mess TD made (when he had complete control) and completely start over at QB. It really isn't close in that Marv was a much better GM than TD, and if (and it's a big if right now) Edwards becomes a franchise QB, he arguably could be the 2nd best GM in Bills' history (though that is more of a statement of lack of talented GM in our history).

[shrader]

So how long does it take for the window to close on this being Marv's team? Once that happens, then we can really compare the two. We know exactly where Donahoe's team took us, but was Marv around long enough for this to be a fair question? Ultimately, fair or not, it's going to come down to Edwards vs. Losman.

[SuperKillerRobots]

good point VJ91 about Polian - i'm not sure how much of Marv's success came due to Polian's wisdom in the background, but one would hazard a guess that it was a significant factor. look at what Polian did in Indy as well, that man is a genius and we should never have parted ways with him!

 

I've always wondered: Everyone here talks about Polian like he's untouchable - everything he does turns to gold. I have to ask the question though, what would Indy look like or have looked like if he had never got Manning? Not even to say that he got Leaf instead, but what if they picked 3rd or 4th that year? Myabe one win or even strength of schedule got them into position to have one of those players and he got the right one. That deserves credit, but is that what really happened? I mean he did have other good picks, but are Harrison and Wayne as good as they are without Manning?

 

I'm not saying that Polian isn't a great GM, but I wonder sometimes if his job was a lot easier the day after he drafted Manning and I also wonder how good he is once Manning retires. I just think he might be a bit overrated. (ducks beer bottle thrown from far corner)

 

[silvermike]

It's really pick your poison: Marv has given us mediocrity, while Donahoe gave us our best seasons post-Butler, he also gave us our worst. Now, since the "best seasons" were 9-7 and 8-8, he's not even really worth it as a boom & bust kind of guy.

 

And honestly, Butler was mostly living off the talent that Polian acquired anyway. This franchise has not been making good decisions for 15 years now.

[qwksilver]

The hiring of Jauron essentially means that Marv was responsible for roughly the same amount of losing seasons as TD.

 

Hard to believe, but there it is.

 

Draft wise, TD was not good, Mike Williams et al. But did Marv do better? An over-rated Whitner, a couple of busts, a few diamonds in the rough. Not great though.

 

Maybe it is equal in futility, Marv and TD?

Who ever the the aZZ hole was who couldn't get along with Polian. That is the guy that sent this franchise into this current never-ending spiral

[billsfreak]

It is not even close, TD screwed us in a major way. What good things did he accomplish? Drafting a loud mouth running back in the first round, who he knew wasn't going to play at all for at least a year because of a busted up knee? Twice trading a first round pick for a quarterback, neither of which got us a sniff of the playoffs? Such stellar picks as Mike Williams and John McCargo. At least Marv was responsible for what could turn out to be the best Bills draft in a couple decades with Edwards, Lynch and Poz in 2007. He also improved the character of the team, of which has been in decline again since he left. Levy wasn't a GM anyway, he was a friend and ex coach who Wilson brought in to try to straighten up the ship. All parties concerned knew that when Levy did Ralph the favor of coming back, it was just for 2 years. Donohue had made a living as a GM, and totally jacked this organization up, bad enough that we really aren't totally recovered from his tenure yet.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Tom Donohoe (ahem) is the Scotty Bowman of Buffalo Bills history: Man heralded as a genius in his field, comes to BUF determined to show how smart he is and humble his previous employer, does a lot of razzle dazzle, makes a couple of spectacular mistakes (Jiri Dudacek, anyone? also known as the Czech Mike Williams ), and leaves with the team floundering.

 

(I know, I know, Bowman went on to win championships elsewhere, but those were places smart enough not to believe him when he said he was a great GM... And besides, his later success only makes me hate him all the more for his horrible work in Buffalo.)

 

A simplistic summary, sure. But painfully true to this Buffalo sports fan's historical sense.

 

TD was an epic fail because of his rep, and the power he was given. Ralph turned over total control of the team to him, and got five years of frantic activity that led nowhere. Marv came in to clean up that mess, and we will see where that leads. For the moment, I cannot imagine putting Marv and TD in the same paragraph, let alone the same sense.

[tennesseeboy]

Marv was less than average. TD was worse than less than average. This is a painful thread.

[Tsaikotic]

I think the one thing ppl keep overlooking that has an impact on all GM's that Buffalo has had, is that Ralph Wilson is the owner...I say this because he most likely had some input on all the decisions that TD and Levy made as GM's...All the coaches hired are decided on by R. Wilson ultimately...When Ralph says he's not going to pay the high prices of great coaches you get the middle of the road to low end coaches left out there...Both TD and Levy found some talent in the drafts and they both found some losers...I give Levy a few more points in his drafting than TD only due to the way TD traded away picks that the Bills needed and for who he traded them for...I don't like some of the players that TD let go, but I wasn't at the meetings and I wasn't privy to the conversations that took place between Bills FO and the players that left/were let go...I was very upset to see Pat Williams and Ted Williams let go...I don't like how Sam Adams was treated in his last year or 2...I didn't like to see Clements go, but I'm glad Bills didn't pay him what he wanted...I wish the Bills would have kept Winfield...All these were moves made by TD...Levy brought in Dockerey, but at the time it was a great move..Our O-lines have sucked for some time and Dockerey was an upgrade for a bit of time...I honestly don't think Levy stayed long enough to really adjust the team, and I think he did ok with never really being a GM b4 or never really wanting to be a GM b4...Levy only really came in to help out Ralph, he never really planned on being a 10 year GM to the team...So far I'm ok with what Brandon has done with Modrak...But if your going to compare the GM's by basing them off there coaching hires, you need to look at Ralph Wilson for that.

[Poeticlaw]

The hiring of Jauron essentially means that Marv was responsible for roughly the same amount of losing seasons as TD.

 

Hard to believe, but there it is.

 

Draft wise, TD was not good, Mike Williams et al. But did Marv do better? An over-rated Whitner, a couple of busts, a few diamonds in the rough. Not great though.

 

Maybe it is equal in futility, Marv and TD?

 

 

TD did us worse He had the ability and talent in place to succeed he picked the wrong coach his first two years gave us an 11-21 record with a team ready to make a playoff push out of 20 picks his first two years only 6 were contributors and of the 6 ony 4 were starters which means TDs crew was totally inept of drating any type of contributor or Starter he had less than 20% success rate.

 

Marv levy took on what we all knew was a sinking ship too many holes and no real answers his coach brought us 14-18 over two years. He had 16 draft picks and 11 are contributors of those 11 and amazing 8 are/were starters which means that Levys crew were more adept to pick thier picks to be immeadate contributors or starters. MArvs crew had les than 60% success rate with drafting.

 

So based on expectations: TD stated playoffs, Levy stated moderate rebuilding.

Based on draft picks: TD 20% succes rate, Levy 50-60% succes rate

Based on standings: TD 8-8, 3-13, overall 11-21 Levy 7-9,7-9 overall 14-18

 

Levys draft were mre succesful in producing more consitent standings in the overall 2 seasons putting this team in the position to break the bubble without breaking the bank.

 

OVERALL= MARV was better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[2003Contenders]

I guess the way I look at it is this: during TD's reign, we all knew he was calling all of the shots. Thus, TD deserves the praise or criticism for what unfolded during his reign. With 0 playoff appearances, two swings and misses at head coaches and questionable personnel moves, obviously TD winds up with less than a passing grade (regardless of what Mort thinks).

 

In Marv's case, he was more of a figure-head than anything else. Thus, it is difficult to praise ro criticize him for decisions that were made. However, I will say this: I like the current foundation of this team, which was built mostly through the draft, much better than the patch-work that TD had assembled by the time he left. And, I am also NOT ready to call Jauron a mistake just yet. While it is hard to argue that he's NOT coming off a brutal 2008 coaching job, I happen to think that he did a pretty good job in 2006 and 2007.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Who's Teflon Don?

Sorry, my bad

 

Teflon Don is nickname for Tom Donahoe / Donahue ... nothing sticks to him.

[Thoner7]

TD was worse no question. He hired coaches over the likes of Coughlin, Del Rio, and Fox, two have coached into the playoffs, one has won a SB. with the 4th overal pick he drafted a guy who is OUT OF FOOTBALL -- a tackle so bad he couldnt even move inside to guard and be a backup. Whitner is still an above average NFL safety, who could be better with a pass rush. TD TRADED UP to draft a QB who is now OUT OF FOOTBALL, no one is going to carry Losman on their roster past training camp. Levy drafted a 3rd rd QB who beat out said 1st round pick in his rookie season. Lynch= Levy, McGahee= TD. Levy's biggest flaw is resigning guys to huge contracts when they dont deserve them. TD couldnt get anything right.

[GR8PRKN]

Donahoe hired two bad coaches and swung and missed three times on the QB position (keeping Johnson, Bledsoe, Losman). I don't know if he was worse than Levy, but he certainly was bad.

 

He was worse! He also had more time to screw up!!