Is he really that good?

[Gordio]

This has got to be the quote of the day on here: It's a good plan, but it's not really coaching, it's system management. Guy, are you for real??? Can you explain the difference?

 

You are all over the place here and your arguments against Belichick are actually making the case for him being great even stronger.

 

1. You're saying that Brady was a fluke, which may be the case, but they did have 11 wins last year with a makeshift QB who hadn't started a game since high school. I agree that Brady is overrated but that's because he's a product of Belichick's system...which reinforces how good Belichick is.

 

2. You're saying he can't coach great players. But he's won three super bowls. So a coach has won 3 super bowls with no great players...doesn't that say something? Personally, I think they had a few great players, but they definitely weren't the most talented team in the league when they won, and I'd argue that they still aren't. BB is the main reason they are always good.

 

3. You say Belichick looks for his D to win games. What's wrong with that? On a team with no great players, his D is coached pretty well if they can win games, don't you think?

 

4. And I don't get my football knowledge from Madden, I get it from Tecmo Super Bowl, as my name states. Madden is Dick Jauron, Tecmo is Belichick.

 

So, just to be clear, Brady is a whiner and not a great QB. The pats don't have great players. They are only good because of the system. Add that all up and you come up with: Belichick is not that good of a coach?

 

It seems like you have this hatred of the pats that is spawned by envy. I know I do. But at least I can give credit where credit's due. BB is a prick, but he's far and away the best coach out there. In fact, if I could pick one person, player or otherwise, to join the Bills, it would be Belichick.

 

In any case, whenever I get overly jealous of their success, I just look at this picture of Wilfork and his wife:

 

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Third_P...614880_4371.jpg

 

I nominate this for post of the year.

[PushthePile]

The closeness of the 3 super bowls combined with the knowledge that they were cheating exposes how big of a fraud the pats* team was. Without cheating, they'd be lucky to even advance to the super bowl.

 

Shall we get into the entire HGH issue with pats* defenders in their mid-30s all of a sudden playing like they are 10 years younger?

Not unless you want to hide your head in the sand and pretend it's not a league wide issue. I hate the Pats just as much as the next guy but you conspiracy theorists have to stop. All you have is that a few Pats got caught with HGH and suddenly it is team policy? Testing in the NFL is a joke and I promise you that performance enhancing drug use is common place. Too much money on the line to believe it isn't. The NFL has done a much better job at fooling the public, in comparison to MLB.

 

In regards to spygate, get over it. You can't prove how much assistance the Pats got from those tapes and neither can anyone else. To say the closeness of the superbowls proves anything, is false. How does it prove a thing? The game shouldn't have been close in your OPINION and therefore they obviously needed those tapes to win? Then that turns into the team wouldn't have made the superbowl without the tapes? I can see why fans think their image should be tarnished and I can agree with that. To try and strip down all their success because of spygate is just sourgrapes on the part of bitter fans.

[Ramius]

Not unless you want to hide your head in the sand and pretend it's not a league wide issue. I hate the Pats just as much as the next guy but you conspiracy theorists have to stop. All you have is that a few Pats got caught with HGH and suddenly it is team policy? Testing in the NFL is a joke and I promise you that performance enhancing drug use is common place. Too much money on the line to believe it isn't. The NFL has done a much better job at fooling the public, in comparison to MLB.

 

In regards to spygate, get over it. You can't prove how much assistance the Pats got from those tapes and neither can anyone else. To say the closeness of the superbowls proves anything, is false. How does it prove a thing? The game shouldn't have been close in your OPINION and therefore they obviously needed those tapes to win? Then that turns into the team wouldn't have made the superbowl without the tapes? I can see why fans think their image should be tarnished and I can agree with that. To try and strip down all their success because of spygate is just sourgrapes on the part of bitter fans.

 

Hmmm, in baseball, we look at players who hit their mid 30s and all of a sudden get better as prime candidates for steroid/HGH use. Why not do the same for football? Players that were once washed up and at the end of the line go to new england* and get new life? That new life is HGH. HGH mind you, that was already shown to be present in the pats* organization. What else have we learned from baseball? Players get it from their teammates. It's not a stretch at all to think that bruschi, etc and all the rest of their 40 yr old defenders are or were on some type of performance enhancing drugs. And stop with the "everyone does it" excuse. Its a tired, substance-free excuse for classless pats* defenders.

 

Spygate is spygate. The pats* cheated and there is no reason to believe that they haven't been cheating since 2001. They filmed the walkthrough of the rams in 2001 and were caught cheating in 2007. Am i supposed to believe that they weren't cheating the entire time? They aren't a dynasty, nor will they ever be, and their "titles" are tainted.

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

I hear you man.. I live close to the MA-NH border and the good Lord knows I have done my time listening to the village idiots here glorifying the Patriots*

 

The one time I remember that Bellicheat's stooges were caught unprepared with their pants puddling around their ankles, they were soundly thrashed and roundly humiliated.. this was the advent of the Wildcat formation last year.

 

Much as I hate to give the Fins any sort of credit, this one time I had to applaud them for embarrassing Bellicheat..

 

 

Thanks for the pleasant reminder! Although the Dolphins used to be the team I hated most during the Shula era, it was nice to see Parcells and company outwit NE. If Jauron could only have the intense desire to beat Bellicheat that Parcells and his group have. If I was Jauron I would plan specific plays only for use on NE so that they couldn't prepare for them.

 

By the way, I forgot one other reason the Patsies win so much--the officiating. Almost always they get the benefit of the calls. I remember an offensive pass interference call against Eric Moulds years ago when the Bills were driving for the winning TD at NE. Gino Capelletti, the color man on the NE radio broadcast, and a former great receiver and PK, after seeing the replay just laughed on the air. All he could think to say was that was not how they called penalties when he used to play the game, because the call was totally bogus. When you get offensive pass interference called against you, you know you are screwed. The Bills get screwed and the Patsies would never get a call like that against them playing the Bills. Also, what about the Patsies never getting offensive holding called on them.

 

Anyway, somehow this year we beat NE, I can feel it in my bones. Possibly even Monday night.

[billsfan89]

Hmmm, in baseball, we look at players who hit their mid 30s and all of a sudden get better as prime candidates for steroid/HGH use. Why not do the same for football? Players that were once washed up and at the end of the line go to new england* and get new life? That new life is HGH. HGH mind you, that was already shown to be present in the pats* organization. What else have we learned from baseball? Players get it from their teammates. It's not a stretch at all to think that bruschi, etc and all the rest of their 40 yr old defenders are or were on some type of performance enhancing drugs. And stop with the "everyone does it" excuse. Its a tired, substance-free excuse for classless pats* defenders.

 

Spygate is spygate. The pats* cheated and there is no reason to believe that they haven't been cheating since 2001. They filmed the walkthrough of the rams in 2001 and were caught cheating in 2007. Am i supposed to believe that they weren't cheating the entire time? They aren't a dynasty, nor will they ever be, and their "titles" are tainted.

 

Honestly if you don't think that at least 70% of the NFL is on HGH than you are fooling yourself. And the number is most likely higher. The NFL testing can't test for HGH so players use it often why not if you don't you will fall behind.

 

How many times has an older person told you that players used to be smaller and how a guy who was 6 foot 4 230 pounds was the biggest guy on a team. Now on most high school teams they have a few kids bigger than that. The reason for the increase in size is two fold one more people playing the game and the use of steroids and now HGH.

 

Human beings are just not meant to be 6 foot 6 and carry over 320 pounds and still be able to run a forty in below five seconds. HGH is just a part of the NFL and once they find a test for that they will either come up with a new drug or use masking agents to not fail tests. Yeah its sad but its true the crooks will always be ahead of the cops.

 

I know the pats dynasty is tainted but its not because of drugs its because of spygate.

[PushthePile]

Hmmm, in baseball, we look at players who hit their mid 30s and all of a sudden get better as prime candidates for steroid/HGH use. Why not do the same for football? Players that were once washed up and at the end of the line go to new england* and get new life? That new life is HGH. HGH mind you, that was already shown to be present in the pats* organization. What else have we learned from baseball? Players get it from their teammates. It's not a stretch at all to think that bruschi, etc and all the rest of their 40 yr old defenders are or were on some type of performance enhancing drugs. And stop with the "everyone does it" excuse. Its a tired, substance-free excuse for classless pats* defenders.

 

Spygate is spygate. The pats* cheated and there is no reason to believe that they haven't been cheating since 2001. They filmed the walkthrough of the rams in 2001 and were caught cheating in 2007. Am i supposed to believe that they weren't cheating the entire time? They aren't a dynasty, nor will they ever be, and their "titles" are tainted.

I am not questioning the effects of HGH, steroids, or any of the other performance enhancing drugs. I'm questioning how you don't see that it's absurd to think the Pats are doing something that the rest of the league isn't. The "everyone does it excuse" is tired and substance free when used to compare the Pats to the rest of the league. Yet, you have no problem assuming that "everyone does it" on New Engalnd's defense. You back this up with saying "players get it from teammates". Well can we then hold the other 31 NFL teams to the same assumptions you hold the Patriots too? If you want judge all of the teams in the NFL by these rules, then I do feel okay saying the NFL has a drug problem. I just flat out don't believe that alot of these guys would say no to performance drugs, knowing full well how much more money they could make with them. Alot of these guys can't even say no to smoking pot.

 

Spygate is spygate and it is cheating. I agree with you on that. I don't believe you can accurately gauage how much the tapes helped them. It is not a suprise that a few Bills fans have found a way to assume that spygate is the main reason for the success of the Pats. Sourgrapes rule the day and lately its the only way we as fans feel like we've won at all. It is not a very objective way to view things though.

[Flbillsfan#1]

Not unless you want to hide your head in the sand and pretend it's not a league wide issue. I hate the Pats just as much as the next guy but you conspiracy theorists have to stop. All you have is that a few Pats got caught with HGH and suddenly it is team policy? Testing in the NFL is a joke and I promise you that performance enhancing drug use is common place. Too much money on the line to believe it isn't. The NFL has done a much better job at fooling the public, in comparison to MLB.

 

In regards to spygate, get over it. You can't prove how much assistance the Pats got from those tapes and neither can anyone else. To say the closeness of the superbowls proves anything, is false. How does it prove a thing? The game shouldn't have been close in your OPINION and therefore they obviously needed those tapes to win? Then that turns into the team wouldn't have made the superbowl without the tapes? I can see why fans think their image should be tarnished and I can agree with that. To try and strip down all their success because of spygate is just sourgrapes on the part of bitter fans.

I never realized you were a Pats* fan, but you must be. NAME me ONE other team that brought in an OLD WASHED UP Vet that played like he was 40 years OLD the previous year, then plays like he is 28 with his new team like Jr Seau did. To say Cheating is league wide is nonsense. If other teams are cheating, it is on a MUCH SMALLER scale than the Pats*

[PushthePile]

I never realized you were a Pats* fan, but you must be. NAME me ONE other team that brought in an OLD WASHED UP Vet that played like he was 40 years OLD the previous year, then plays like he is 28 with his new team like Jr Seau did. To say Cheating is league wide is nonsense. If other teams are cheating, it is on a MUCH SMALLER scale than the Pats*

Clearly you never saw Seau play in his prime or you are just being dramatic. The guy had a decent year in 07 but was no where even close to what he was in San Diego. Earlier in this thread you said that the Pats wouldn't have even sniffed a superbowl without cheating. This is just your classic one-sided fan hatred for another team. If I disagree with your unfounded assumption I automatically become a Pats fan right? So what is your reasoning behind other teams cheating at a much smaller scale than the Pats? I'm curious as to what proof you have? Do you think the Pats only target guys who would be willing to take HGH? What about other players who have failed tests? Kevin Williams, Pat Williams, Julius Peppers, Deuce Mcallister, Shawn Merriman, Charles Grant, Will Smith, and many many others couldn't be cheaters.

[Flbillsfan#1]

Clearly you never saw Seau play in his prime or you are just being dramatic. The guy had a decent year in 07 but was no where even close to what he was in San Diego. Earlier in this thread you said that the Pats wouldn't have even sniffed a superbowl without cheating. This is just your classic one-sided fan hatred for another team. If I disagree with your unfounded assumption I automatically become a Pats fan right? So what is your reasoning behind other teams cheating at a much smaller scale than the Pats? I'm curious as to what proof you have? Do you think the Pats only target guys who would be willing to take HGH? What about other players who have failed tests? Kevin Williams, Pat Williams, Julius Peppers, Deuce Mcallister, Shawn Merriman, Charles Grant, Will Smith, and many many others couldn't be cheaters.

Seau's play was MUCH CLOSER to his play in his prime for the Pats* than while when he was a Fin.............................that is not even debateable. As I said name me one other team & player with such a miraculous turn around in play...................you can't or you would have already. I did not always hate the Pats*, I actually rooted for the Pats* in the Super Bowl against the Rams..............because I didn't know at the time the CHEATERS they are. You are a Pats* fan alright................................it is so obvious.

[Beerball]

In regards to spygate, get over it. You can't prove how much assistance the Pats got from those tapes and neither can anyone else. To say the closeness of the superbowls proves anything, is false. How does it prove a thing? The game shouldn't have been close in your OPINION and therefore they obviously needed those tapes to win? Then that turns into the team wouldn't have made the superbowl without the tapes? I can see why fans think their image should be tarnished and I can agree with that. To try and strip down all their success because of spygate is just sourgrapes on the part of bitter fans.

disqualified

[PushthePile]

Seau's play was MUCH CLOSER to his play in his prime for the Pats* than while when he was a Fin.............................that is not even debateable. As I said name me one other team & player with such a miraculous turn around in play...................you can't or you would have already. I did not always hate the Pats*, I actually rooted for the Pats* in the Super Bowl against the Rams..............because I didn't know at the time the CHEATERS they are. You are a Pats* fan alright................................it is so obvious.

How about Kurt Warner? How about Randy Moss? How about Joey Porter? How about Priest Holmes? How about Ray Lewis last year in comparison to the year before? What if Jason Taylor does it this year? What about Jerome Bettis? What about Marcus Allens resurgence in KC? How about Stroud coming here after some injury filled seasons in Jacksonville?

 

Do you need more examples of players having a turn around in play? Your a complete moron if you think Seau was anywhere near his play in San Diego. Was he better than when he played in Miami? Obviously yes. What is your point? This is not proof of anything. You are a complete homer for the Bills and can't even carry out an intelligent conversation because of it. Your logic is so incredibly dumb. Every team in the NFL has players who abuse performance enhancing drugs. You have no reason to believe the Pats abuse this more than any other team. Spygate should taint their image not HGH.

[PushthePile]

disqualified

Thanks for the input

[iinii]

At the end of the 2000 season Bill Belichick career record was 41 wins and 55 losses that was the last year he did not have Tom Brady as his QB. IMO the best QB of all time. I cannot stand him but he is a pure winner. Romeo, Charlie, and ManGenious all have bombed in there post NE jobs. As it stands right know he is a hall of fame coach. I do not think he is that special he has just got the best toy on the block to play with. He must thank his lucky stars every day for Brady.

Are you guys still debating this one?

[Flbillsfan#1]

How about Kurt Warner? How about Randy Moss? How about Joey Porter? How about Priest Holmes? How about Ray Lewis last year in comparison to the year before? What if Jason Taylor does it this year? What about Jerome Bettis? What about Marcus Allens resurgence in KC? How about Stroud coming here after some injury filled seasons in Jacksonville?

 

Do you need more examples of players having a turn around in play? Your a complete moron if you think Seau was anywhere near his play in San Diego. Was he better than when he played in Miami? Obviously yes. What is your point? This is not proof of anything. You are a complete homer for the Bills and can't even carry out an intelligent conversation because of it. Your logic is so incredibly dumb. Every team in the NFL has players who abuse performance enhancing drugs. You have no reason to believe the Pats abuse this more than any other team. Spygate should taint their image not HGH.

Their image is tainted by ALL of the cheating the Pats* have done............................SUCKS to be a Pats* fan. A multiple Super Bowl winning team that their fans can take no pride in.

[PushthePile]

Their image is tainted by ALL of the cheating the Pats* have done............................SUCKS to be a Pats* fan. A multiple Super Bowl winning team that their fans can take no pride in.

Yeah it really sucks for Pats fans. You really showed them flbillsfan.

[MattM]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/f...ttee&st=cse

 

This article is about all you need to know about the Pats*--

 

Some nuggets:

 

"The committee heard accusations that the Patriots had taped opposing coaches’ signals, placed microphones on defensive players to steal quarterbacks’ audible signals and manipulated clocks and coach-to-quarterback radio systems.... [Ask Marinelli and Del Rio about that one--I know both of them complained about radios mysteriously dying in Gillette at odd times.]

 

The N.F.L. team executive said the Patriots were the subject of most of the accusations discussed in the rules committee’s deliberations. The team’s recent success and tight-lipped approach, as personified by Belichick, has played a role.

 

“They were the only team, really,” the executive said. “Clearly, they were the team mentioned far more than anybody else.”

 

 

Yeah, everybody does it--my arse......

[Pneumonic]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/f...ttee&st=cse

 

This article is about all you need to know about the Pats*--

 

Some nuggets:

 

"The committee heard accusations that the Patriots had taped opposing coaches’ signals, placed microphones on defensive players to steal quarterbacks’ audible signals and manipulated clocks and coach-to-quarterback radio systems.... [Ask Marinelli and Del Rio about that one--I know both of them complained about radios mysteriously dying in Gillette at odd times.]

 

The N.F.L. team executive said the Patriots were the subject of most of the accusations discussed in the rules committee’s deliberations. The team’s recent success and tight-lipped approach, as personified by Belichick, has played a role.

 

“They were the only team, really,” the executive said. “Clearly, they were the team mentioned far more than anybody else.”

 

 

Yeah, everybody does it--my arse......

 

The Pats got caught doing something that's been done since the dawn of the NFL, stealing the signals of their opposition. BFD and stupid on their part for getting caught breaking a technicality of a silly rule. They should have placed their tape guy in the stands like all the other teams do.

[afcfan1]

I disagree - he was a mediocre head coach (36-44 in Cleveland) until he hitched his wagon to Bill Parcells. After carrying Parcells' jock...er, uh...I mean serving as an assistant to Bill Parcells for a few years, Belicheat* finally got another head coaching job in New England*, and even then went 5-11 his first season as Patriettes* HC. Then he started cheating, and the wins started coming.

 

And, while Belicheat* is part of Parcells' impressive NFL coaching tree, his own NFL coaching tree is far from impressive...

 

 

Eric Mangini - former Jets HC and current Browns HC – 23-25 record with Jets, missed playoffs in his last two years in NYC. Hired by the Browns, where he immediately earned the ire of...

 

Mike Leach

 

Upon further review, is probably not a "Mangenius" as once thought.

 

 

Romeo Crennel - former Browns HC – 24-40 record with Browns. His horridness cannot be quantified, unless you count the money made on gambling against him.

 

 

Charlie Weis - Notre Dame HC – 29-21 record at Notre Dame, but only 10-15 in his last two seasons with his own recruits.

 

 

Nick Saban - former Dolphins head coach, current Alabama HC - was a disaster as Dolphins coach. (Saban is a great college coach, though, despite getting his ass kicked by Florida and Utah this year - way to ROLL in the big games, Nick.)

 

 

And the coming season doesn't look too promising in Denver for rookie HC Josh McDaniels, Belicheat's former OC, whose first big move as HC was to alienate starting QB Jay Cutler to the point where he demanded a trade. Good luck with Kyle Orton, Josh.

 

 

Debating if BB is a tremendous coach is utterly crazy. Every single analyst/player/opposing coach in the NFL says he is an elite coach and one of the best ever. John Lynch, after one preseason, stated he was the best coach he has ever been around. The reason BB did not have the success at Cleveland he has had in NE is because he did not have the complete and total control he was granted in NE. This is the same reason he picked the Pats over the Jets when he had that opportunity. Kraft offered him complete control. To paraphrase Bill Parcells, when BB was in Cleveland he was expected to prepare the meal without being able to select the groceries. Since he has had complete control over his team, BB is one of the best coaches of all time. Debating that is like debating if grass is green or the sky is blue. He is the best personnel guy, the best game plan guy and the best game day adjustment guy in the NFL.

[Pneumonic]

Belichick's tree isn't limited to just NFL HC's such as those already noted. Look at all the other HC's in football along with the management types who all get their starts courtesy of Belichick.

 

Name such as:

 

Scott Pioli

Ozzie Newsome

Kevin Byrne

Phil Savage

Mike Lombardi

Nick Saban

Jim Bates

Kirk Ferentz

Chuck Bresnahan

Ken Venturi

Jim Schwartz

Scott O'Brien

Pat Hill

[Mr. WEO]

They filmed the walkthrough of the rams in 2001 and were caught cheating in 2007. Am i supposed to believe that they weren't cheating the entire time? They aren't a dynasty, nor will they ever be, and their "titles" are tainted.

 

 

"They filmed the walkthrough of the Rams"

 

hahahaha---you rube! That was a huge hoax concocted by Matt Walsh and his lawyer and propagated by a lazy Boston Herald reporter. It was a complete fantasy---Walsh admitted as much. There was never a tape, but Walsh and his shill let everyone believe there was so he could leverage his 15 minutes into some cash. When his bluff was called, Walsh came clean--he had nothing. Turns out, in the end, NO ONE CARED!--and Matt went back to the caddyshack.

 

Furthermore, Mike MArtz was dumb enough to hold his walkthrough while hundreds of workers, family members and guests were in the dome at the time. OOPS!

 

If I was Jauron I would plan specific plays only for use on NE so that they couldn't prepare for them.

 

Great idea. Oy.

 

By the way, I forgot one other reason the Patsies win so much--the officiating. Almost always they get the benefit of the calls. I remember an offensive pass interference call against Eric Moulds years ago when the Bills were driving for the winning TD at NE. Gino Capelletti, the color man on the NE radio broadcast, and a former great receiver and PK, after seeing the replay just laughed on the air. All he could think to say was that was not how they called penalties when he used to play the game, because the call was totally bogus.

 

Gino retired from football 40 years ago! It really shouldn't surprise you or anyone that he would comment that the game is called differently now than back then. And as for the officiating? Well, looks like the League got its revenge on BB in the SB, after the Pats ripped up the rest of the league during the regular season. The Giants' Greatest Super Bowl Catch Ever was ONLY possible because the refs ignored at least 2 blatant holds by the Giants' o-line as Manning was able to scramble for about 45 minutes in the backfield.

 

See, the Pats got their punishment in the end after all. Why are you still crying?