C.Biscuit97 Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 He is a HOF CHEATER no doubt. No one has even mentiond how he brings in players to training camp to pick their brains then cuts them. Bill Walsh is only behind Belicheat when it comes to cheating. The 49ers spent on players OVER the salery cap every year & were not punished for it until Eddie D was forced to leave the team & league. People give Walsh much more credit than he deserves. Neither Belicheat or Walsh would have won a single Superbowl without cheating. I agree with your points on BB, but I don't get why Walsh is a cheater because ownership overspent? Was he supposed to say no thanks for the players, it's not fair? The whole system was faulted back then.
The Senator Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 When done Belichick will be the best head coach ever. Thing is he may even be a better personnel guy than a HC. And no not just player personnel but management and coaching types as well. The NFL people who got their starts in the NFL courtesy of a Belichick hire read like a who's who of the top people in the game. The Belichick tree is extensive and highly impressive. I disagree - he was a mediocre head coach (36-44 in Cleveland) until he hitched his wagon to Bill Parcells. After carrying Parcells' jock...er, uh...I mean serving as an assistant to Bill Parcells for a few years, Belicheat* finally got another head coaching job in New England*, and even then went 5-11 his first season as Patriettes* HC. Then he started cheating, and the wins started coming. And, while Belicheat* is part of Parcells' impressive NFL coaching tree, his own NFL coaching tree is far from impressive... Eric Mangini - former Jets HC and current Browns HC – 23-25 record with Jets, missed playoffs in his last two years in NYC. Hired by the Browns, where he immediately earned the ire of... Mike Leach Upon further review, is probably not a "Mangenius" as once thought. Romeo Crennel - former Browns HC – 24-40 record with Browns. His horridness cannot be quantified, unless you count the money made on gambling against him. Charlie Weis - Notre Dame HC – 29-21 record at Notre Dame, but only 10-15 in his last two seasons with his own recruits. Nick Saban - former Dolphins head coach, current Alabama HC - was a disaster as Dolphins coach. (Saban is a great college coach, though, despite getting his ass kicked by Florida and Utah this year - way to ROLL in the big games, Nick.) And the coming season doesn't look too promising in Denver for rookie HC Josh McDaniels, Belicheat's former OC, whose first big move as HC was to alienate starting QB Jay Cutler to the point where he demanded a trade. Good luck with Kyle Orton, Josh.
Deep Voice Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 How many superbowls did TUNA win without Belichick? Yeah
nodnarb Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 Yes, he is that good, and no amount of "yeah buts" will change that. He's the smartest/best strategist and tactician in the game, period.
Cynical Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 But that's his whole point. Now of course, it is easy to look at BB as a great coach. But after Cleveland and his first 2 seasons in NE (5-11 and started 1-3 til Mo Lewis entered), he actually had a worse winning % than Jauron. There was no reason to ever believe at that point, BB was anything special as a head coach. But the amazing ability of fans is to have the ability of 20/ 20 hindsight and don't actually pay attention to the total picture. BB was worse than Jauron before Brady. It's a fact. But of course, mow people look at his success and think he would have won Super Bowls with Losman and Cade McNown. And that is complete BS and short sighted thinking. Do you get a headache from all the "spinning" you do? After 7 seasons, BB had compiled a record of 52-60. Jauron compiled a record of 49-63. (not counting playoffs) Please explain to everybody how Jauron had a better winning % than BB after 7 seasons. Oh, you must have meant after 6 years. BB - 41-55 DJ - 42-54 There you go. A 1 game difference. You are so right. BB was so much more horrendous than DJ.
Gainzo Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 They didn't think so in Cleveland. Before he learned how to win by cheating at every opportunity, Belicheat compiled a 36-44 record with the Browns, including the 5-11 season that got him fired. It wasn't that long ago that you would see signs at Cleveland games that said "Beavis and Belichick". (His win percentage in 5 seasons with Cleveland is roughly the same as Jauron's 3-year win percentage here.) He also went 5-11 in his first season with the Cheatriettes*. Presumably, he then discovered that to keep his job he had to win, and that it's much easier to win if you cheat. You fail to mention that he lead the Browns to an 11-5 record in 1994 and beat the Parcells lead Pats in the playoffs that season. The Brown were 3-3 in 1995 when the news leaked that Modell was moving the team to Baltimore. The wheels fell off the wagon after that. IIRC Belichick traded a 1995 draft pick that enabled the Ravens to draft Ray Lewis in 1996. As the Pats, then Jets, Assistant Head Coach/D Coordinator from 1996-1999 those teams went 4-4 against the Bills. With Belichicks defense giving up an average of 16 points a game.
Geno Smith's Arm Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 But the amazing ability of fans is to have the ability of 20/ 20 hindsight and don't actually pay attention to the total picture. BB was worse than Jauron before Brady. It's a fact. But of course, mow people look at his success and think he would have won Super Bowls with Losman and Cade McNown. And that is complete BS and short sighted thinking. Belichek wouldn't let either of those clowns be his quarterback (though maybe he could have gotten a lot more out of them, who knows). He knows what attributes a QB needs to accomplish what they want on offense. Tall QB's first off. I was really hoping the Bills would pick the Pats backup QB O'Connell from San Diego State, I had heard interviews with him, and knew he had some of the measurables Belichek likes. Low and behold, the Pats pick him LATE in the draft.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 This discussion is totally incomplete without a discussion of the team owners, Ralph Wilson and Robert Kraft. I'm not a big fan of Kraft because he's been part of that group along with Jerry Jones, Jeffrey Lurie, Daniel Snyder, Pat Bowlen and others who have helped skew the rules and tilt the league in favor of large market teams. That said he's a great owner. He was a childhood fan of the Patriots and slowly bought interests in the team. In 1994, he outbid James Orthwein (who wanted to move the team to St. Louis) to buy the Patriots outright and keep them in New England. The coaches since he's owned the team have been Bill Parcells (27-21), Pete Carroll (27-21), and Bill Belichick (102-42). The Patriots' overall record in the fifteen years Kraft has owned the team is 156-84 for a winning percentage of .650 and 10 playoff appearances. In those same years (since 1994) the Bills have had 5 coaches and a record of 114-126 for a winning percentage of .475 and 4 playoff appearances. You can talk all you want about players, coaches, GM's etc. but great ownership IMO is the biggest factor in team success. Great ownership will identify competent and successful people and will retain them as long as possible. The Bills success over the years has been accidental (Bill Polian, right place and right time). The Patriots success, like the Steelers success looks to be a product of great management put in place by great ownership.
Geno Smith's Arm Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 You can talk all you want about players, coaches, GM's etc. but great ownership IMO is the biggest factor in team success. Great ownership will identify competent and successful people and will retain them as long as possible. The Bills success over the years has been accidental (Bill Polian, right place and right time). The Patriots success, like the Steelers success looks to be a product of great management put in place by great ownership. Truer words have never been written....
ExiledInIllinois Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 Who would you rather have as the coach of the Bills: Bellicheat or Jauron? I rather have honest game planning, win or lose. There is just too much in question nowadays. I don't like all the tech and tinkering. I agree Belicheat is good and has mastered that art. I just can't decide if it should be given credit. Classic example... Just imagine how entertaining the league would be if every game had to be like last years Bills-Chargers game!
ExiledInIllinois Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 This discussion is totally incomplete without a discussion of the team owners, Ralph Wilson and Robert Kraft. I'm not a big fan of Kraft because he's been part of that group along with Jerry Jones, Jeffrey Lurie, Daniel Snyder, Pat Bowlen and others who have helped skew the rules and tilt the league in favor of large market teams. That said he's a great owner. He was a childhood fan of the Patriots and slowly bought interests in the team. In 1994, he outbid James Orthwein (who wanted to move the team to St. Louis) to buy the Patriots outright and keep them in New England. The coaches since he's owned the team have been Bill Parcells (27-21), Pete Carroll (27-21), and Bill Belichick (102-42). The Patriots' overall record in the fifteen years Kraft has owned the team is 156-84 for a winning percentage of .650 and 10 playoff appearances. In those same years (since 1994) the Bills have had 5 coaches and a record of 114-126 for a winning percentage of .475 and 4 playoff appearances. You can talk all you want about players, coaches, GM's etc. but great ownership IMO is the biggest factor in team success. Great ownership will identify competent and successful people and will retain them as long as possible. The Bills success over the years has been accidental (Bill Polian, right place and right time). The Patriots success, like the Steelers success looks to be a product of great management put in place by great ownership. Say all you want about Kraft... But, I still can't get over what he said in a Forbes magazine some years ago... That being how he used to sneak a bunch of people in on a few season tickets in the early days of the Pats*... And HE SEEMED PROUD TO TELL THAT STORY. He is still a major cheat in my eyes... No don't get me wrong, it is no big deal to me... But, man those early Pats* teams were struggling with attendence at the gate, that it took "honest" ownersw like Ralph to bail them out and save them. Now that same type of guy is putting the screws to owners like Ralph.
Flbillsfan#1 Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 I agree with your points on BB, but I don't get why Walsh is a cheater because ownership overspent? Was he supposed to say no thanks for the players, it's not fair? The whole system was faulted back then. NO other team was found to be cheating at that time except the 49ers. Walsh has also been credited for Montana, when the truth is he did not want him & had Montana forced on him by the front office. My opinion is without ALL of the great players that were on that team ILLEGALLY, Walsh would not have won a Super Bowl.
VJ91 Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 At the end of the 2000 season Bill Belichick career record was 41 wins and 55 losses that was the last year he did not have Tom Brady as his QB. IMO the best QB of all time. I cannot stand him but he is a pure winner. Romeo, Charlie, and ManGenious all have bombed in there post NE jobs. As it stands right know he is a hall of fame coach. I do not think he is that special he has just got the best toy on the block to play with. He must thank his lucky stars every day for Brady. ...and of course Matt Cassell, the QB who had not started a football game since high school, who he managed to coach to an 11-5-0 record, to add to your 41-55 Brady-less record. Seems that Coach B. can coach without Tom, when he has to.
Thurman#1 Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 They didn't think so in Cleveland. Before he learned how to win by cheating at every opportunity, Belicheat compiled a 36-44 record with the Browns, including the 5-11 season that got him fired. It wasn't that long ago that you would see signs at Cleveland games that said "Beavis and Belichick". (His win percentage in 5 seasons with Cleveland is roughly the same as Jauron's 3-year win percentage here.) He also went 5-11 in his first season with the Cheatriettes*. Presumably, he then discovered that to keep his job he had to win, and that it's much easier to win if you cheat. This should tell you two things about even great coaches. First, great coaches with bad rosters won't win. Even great coaches need a good team to win. Second, many great coaches don't look so good in their first go-round. A bit of experience and a chance to reflect on what you learned from it is often very helpful.
Lenigmusx Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 But that's his whole point. Now of course, it is easy to look at BB as a great coach. But after Cleveland and his first 2 seasons in NE (5-11 and started 1-3 til Mo Lewis entered), he actually had a worse winning % than Jauron. There was no reason to ever believe at that point, BB was anything special as a head coach. But the amazing ability of fans is to have the ability of 20/ 20 hindsight and don't actually pay attention to the total picture. BB was worse than Jauron before Brady. It's a fact. But of course, mow people look at his success and think he would have won Super Bowls with Losman and Cade McNown. And that is complete BS and short sighted thinking. Another point to add fuel to the fire. Examine Marv Levy's record pre-Buffalo and you will find a poor winning percentage as well. Marv was a whoping 31-42 pre-Buffalo. You do the math and draw your own conclussions. with Buffalo he was 182-112. That was 61.5% winning percentage but it took him a good 10 years of NFL coaching to figure it out 1978-1988. I remember people calling for his head in his first three seasons. Especially 1987 when he had "ALL the talent!". Let's see how this year goes before we throw Jauron out of town.
Cynical Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 Another point to add fuel to the fire. Examine Marv Levy's record pre-Buffalo and you will find a poor winning percentage as well. Marv was a whoping 31-42 pre-Buffalo. You do the math and draw your own conclussions. Please do look at Marv's pre-Bills days. In KC, the number of wins per season improved under Marv. His last year being the exception. with Buffalo he was 182-112. That was 61.5% winning percentage but it took him a good 10 years of NFL coaching to figure it out 1978-1988. I remember people calling for his head in his first three seasons. Especially 1987 when he had "ALL the talent!". Let's see how this year goes before we throw Jauron out of town. By his 8th year as a HC, Levy took the Bills to the AFC championship game (where he lost to the Bengals). In Buffalo, we are still waiting for the DICK to prove he can produce a winning season.
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 Do you get a headache from all the "spinning" you do? After 7 seasons, BB had compiled a record of 52-60. Jauron compiled a record of 49-63. (not counting playoffs) Please explain to everybody how Jauron had a better winning % than BB after 7 seasons. Oh, you must have meant after 6 years. BB - 41-55 DJ - 42-54 There you go. A 1 game difference. You are so right. BB was so much more horrendous than DJ. Well if your reading comprehension was as strong as your hate for DJ, you would have read that I said BB's record before Brady. That would include his 1st season with NE (5-11) and the first 4 games of his 2nd (1-3). And thanks for varying my point that BB was a worse coach than Jauron before Brady.
JDHILL Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 Well if your reading comprehension was as strong as your hate for DJ, you would have read that I said BB's record before Brady. That would include his 1st season with NE (5-11) and the first 4 games of his 2nd (1-3). And thanks for varying my point that BB was a worse coach than Jauron before Brady. This is a great thread. I believe we all have disdain for Godlichek. He is a cheater, that is true. I think he's a good coach who got lucky with Brady (the tuck rule), and timing. He made the most out of his lucky breaks. From that success he built this aura around him that everything he did was genius. He never gets called out when he makes a coaching error and showed very little class when losing the superbowl to the Giants. Didn't show alot of class running up the score on teams that year either. The tide will turn someday.
Cynical Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 Well if your reading comprehension was as strong as your hate for DJ, you would have read that I said BB's record before Brady. That would include his 1st season with NE (5-11) and the first 4 games of his 2nd (1-3). And if your writing ability was even remotely near as strong as your unbridled love for DJ, you would not have written something like this: But after Cleveland and his first 2 seasons in NE ... Note how you did NOT say his first season plus some games ... But if that is how desperate you are in trying to prove the greatness of DJ, fine. Let's take a closer look: BB coached the Browns for 5 years, plus one year in NE 6 seasons x 16 games (per season) = 96 games Now you want to include only the first 4 games of of his second season in NE: 96 + 4 = 100 games DJ coached the Bears for 5 years, and we will throw in the his first year with the Bills: 6 x 16 = 96 Now we have to include a partial year for DJ. And luckily for us, DJ already has one: from Detroit where he was the HC for 5 games. 96 + 5 = 101 Obviously, 100 does not equal 101. And in all fairness, we want it to be equal. So how do we fix this disparity. We could remove one game from DJ, but that would not be right. Because if we did it that way, we would be leaving out games out from the past of both coaches. Both coaches did coach in a playoff game(s). Since your argument is based on BB pre-Brady, and those playoff games for BB were pre-Brady ... DJ coached in one (and lost), and BB coached in 2 (won one) Let's add those playoff games in: BB => 100 + 2 = 102 games coached DJ => 101 + 1 = 102 games coached Even amount of games, all accounted for, both being their first 102 games as a HC, and all the games BB coached pre-Brady. Let's add those wins up: BB => 6 + 7 + 7 + 11 + 1 (playoff game he won) + 5 + 5 + 1 (his one win from his 2nd season in NE) = 43 DJ => 6 + 5 + 13 + 4 + 7 + 1 (from his time in Detroit) + 7 (his first season in Buffalo) = 43 Same number of wins. Same number of games coached. Looks like your attempt to spin has failed again. And thanks for varying my point that BB was a worse coach than Jauron before Brady. Hell, after 3 seasons, DJ was near .500, the highest winning percentage in his entire coaching career. He should have retired then. His reputation would have been intact, and we would not be subjected to his incompetent coaching now.
Lenigmusx Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 Please do look at Marv's pre-Bills days.In KC, the number of wins per season improved under Marv. His last year being the exception. By his 8th year as a HC, Levy took the Bills to the AFC championship game (where he lost to the Bengals). In Buffalo, we are still waiting for the DICK to prove he can produce a winning season. 1988 was his 10th year as a head coach. He started coaching in 1978.
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