Further grading the OL

[BillsVet]

Russ Brandon point blank said they offered Peters a contract that would make him the highest paid Bills player ever.

 

That doesnt mean they offered him the amount he was looking for. a 4 year $40 million extension would have made him the highest paid ever, the Eagles gave him a 4 year $53 million extension.

 

We still don't know what they offered, regardless of what anyone says on here. Highest paid could mean a variety of things.

 

Russ is a guy who's overnight become a GM without any personnel negotiating experience. He obviously can't fire coaches who have minimal contracts the team would eat, but he was allowed to offer a contract of 10M+ per season? I'm sorry, I don't believe it.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I said in 112 attempts, not 112 losses at the point of attack.

 

Being pushed into the backfield is the worst thing that could happen to an OL. Losing in their blocking assignment is a step up. Hence, Butler's ratings in the seventies.

The interesting thing about Butler is that his rushing average was second highest on the team despite a low overall grade. That suggests that he was pretty good when he was on, but he had more than his fair share of breakdowns.

 

Moving Walker to LT when his weight (abundance) and (lack of) speed made him the worst lineman overall in the running game seems like wishful thinking. Trent better up his life insurance. Fitzpatpatsack may see quite a bit of P.T., and after leading the Bengals to the worst passing game in NFL history last year, that might not be a good thing.

[Big Turk]

The non-scientific response is the line sucked last year and will suck even worse this year with rookies starting, and only Walker returning to his 08 position ..

 

doubt it...

 

the middle of the line is more important when playing in the AFC East than the tackles are. With the middle of the line consistently getting shoved around last year, the running game started out horribly. It got better towads the end of the year, but there were still too many times they got beaten badly. Green Bay successfully started 2 rookie guards either last year or the year before and they were major upgrades over the players they replaced. Hangartner is a huge improvement on Fowler or Preston.

[busterramsey]

doubt it...

 

the middle of the line is more important when playing in the AFC East than the tackles are. With the middle of the line consistently getting shoved around last year, the running game started out horribly. It got better towads the end of the year, but there were still too many times they got beaten badly. Green Bay successfully started 2 rookie guards either last year or the year before and they were major upgrades over the players they replaced. Hangartner is a huge improvement on Fowler or Preston.

 

 

Why would anyone think Hangartner is better? He was only a fill-in and started only when an injury happened. He never earned a starting position.. So what do we do? We move him to starting Center from Guard. The rest of the "middle" are 2 unproven rookies.. we suck!

[Mickey]

The non-scientific response is the line sucked last year and will suck even worse this year with rookies starting, and only Walker returning to his 08 position ..

Amazing how this simple reality eludes the grasp of so many.

[Mickey]

Or one rookie lineman and some late round picks.

No one would be that stupid....er, oh, right *sigh*.

[PushthePile]

Here are my grades:

 

08 O-Line: B

09 O-Line: C-

 

09 Frnt Offc: F- ... classified as having mental disabilities, and currently commuting via a short bus.

Why stop with 09 grades? I'm dying to know how good our o-line will be in 2010 and 2012.

[PushthePile]

I have yet to see an upgrade. Complain as you will about Peters, but he was ahead of someone last year. We still have porky pig at right tackle. Butler has shown very little.

He was ahead of the entire NFL for sacks allowed last year. Butler has improved each season and has become a solid starter.

[Brand J]

Why would anyone think Hangartner is better? He was only a fill-in and started only when an injury happened. He never earned a starting position.. So what do we do? We move him to starting Center from Guard. The rest of the "middle" are 2 unproven rookies.. we suck!

 

I disagree with your assertion that we suck because we are starting 2 rookies on the OL, but I've been arguing the point that Hangartner may be the odd man out on the OL. Few people on this board considered the possibility, most others were shouting his praises: "Hangartner was the number 1 free agent the Bills targeted" (4 yrs/$9.6million - barely above backup salary) "Dick Jauron said that Hangartner will be the starting C" Dick Jauron says a lot of things that aren't necessarily true "Hangartner is a good center" Really? Is that why he has only started 27 out of 54 games in his career??... I think he is only marginal and I would like our real C - Eric Wood - to assume the 2nd most important position on the line starting with preseason game #1.

Geoff Hangartner Draft Profile

[busterramsey]

Amazing how this simple reality eludes the grasp of so many.

 

Amazing how cheer leading effects rational judgement

[busterramsey]

I disagree with your assertion that we suck because we are starting 2 rookies on the OL, but I've been arguing the point that Hangartner may be the odd man out on the OL. Few people on this board considered the possibility, most others were shouting his praises: "Hangartner was the number 1 free agent the Bills targeted" (4 yrs/$9.6million - barely above backup salary) "Dick Jauron said that Hangartner will be the starting C" Dick Jauron says a lot of things that aren't necessarily true "Hangartner is a good center" Really? Is that why he has only started 27 out of 54 games in his career??... I think he is only marginal and I would like our real C - Eric Wood - to assume the 2nd most important position on the line starting with preseason game #1.

Geoff Hangartner Draft Profile

 

They are paying him like a starter, he'll start somewhere even if he sucks

[ax4782]

Why would anyone think Hangartner is better? He was only a fill-in and started only when an injury happened. He never earned a starting position.. So what do we do? We move him to starting Center from Guard. The rest of the "middle" are 2 unproven rookies.. we suck!

 

Because he is. You are clearly another member of the board who has not seen Hangartner's stats, and clearly hasn't seen the guy play for Carolina. Perhaps you should do both of those before you open your yapper. His stats are as follows:

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/team/roster/Ge...01-345c6818704a

 

Please note that he started 15 games at center for Carolina in 2006. That means, looking at his stats, he has as much, and better experience playing at C than he does at guard. He also played both as a starter in college. Please take note that he has started half of the games he has appeared in and since his rookie season has started 27 out of the 48 games that Carolina has played in the regular season. That is 56.25% of the time. When you start more than half of the games in which you appear, you are starting material. Hangartner is smarter, bigger and much more solid at the pivot than Fowler or Preston ever could hope to be. Please actually watch players play and look at their stats before you decide to be completely negative on a subject you clearly know nothing about.

 

As for Wood and Levitre, both are upgrades over Dockery who wasn't worth the 7mil a year that we were paying him and appeared to be a sieve on running and passing plays. He was partially responsible for at least half of the sacks that people credit to Peters last season. Both of them play with an attitude in the trenches that has been missing for years, particularly now against the big NTs in the division. Again, you clearly didn't watch how Wood handled his job as a center for Louisville, and how superbly he handled his competition. Go take a look at the number of putdowns and pancake blocks he had against his opponents in the past two seasons. Then picture what he can do against Seymour and Jenkins.

 

Start looking at how guys have performed rather than spewing uneducated negativity. I don't mind bashing on a guy if the stats and his play show that he truly does suck. But to say that the line this year across the board is going to be worse, IMO is premature and not statistically accurate.

[Lurker]

Perhaps you should do both of those before you open your yapper.

Actually, I think he was using another part of his anatomy...

[ax4782]

Actually, I think he was using another part of his anatomy...

[Kelly the Dog]

Again, you clearly didn't watch how Wood handled his job as a center for Louisville, and how superbly he handled his competition. Go take a look at the number of putdowns and pancake blocks he had against his opponents in the past two seasons. Then picture what he can do against Seymour and Jenkins.

 

Get pancaked himself? Is he going to be able to just putdown and pancake All-Pro ends and nose tackles? Our rookie right guard is going to be pancaking right ends rushing from the opposite side of the line? Damn, he is good. Will he even be blocking Seymour ever? Except for maybe perhaps on sweeps to the left where he is pulling?

 

I think Wood is going to be a very good player, too, and love the pick, and a lot of what I have seen and read, but maybe you should think for a second before posting like that.

[Tsaikotic]

there's a couple things they fail to mention in this article..1 - how many times Buffalo faced 8 in the box due to no passing game threat...2 - this only talks about against the run, it doesn't mention at all how these players did against the pass...yes Peters was our best line-man against the run according to that chart..but the worst sacks (imo) were against Peters from what I remember in passing situations..and Peters wasn't traded because the FO thought he was a crappy player..he was traded because attitude towards the team and towards playing for this team was bad...3 - doesn't say if these are one on one battles or 2 DL on 1 OL battles

 

if they're going to go by this chart to see how a line-men is, they need to do a separate chart for passing downs as well and then put them together to get an over-all grade...Then add in the attitude of the player, how many plays they took off..how many times they didn't finish the play...how many times they just stould there and watched other players working hard instead of running down field a bit to help blocking...did they play from whistle to whistle?..did they even play the there own full potential?

[ax4782]

Get pancaked himself? Is he going to be able to just putdown and pancake All-Pro ends and nose tackles? Our rookie right guard is going to be pancaking right ends rushing from the opposite side of the line? Damn, he is good. Will he even be blocking Seymour ever? Except for maybe perhaps on sweeps to the left where he is pulling?

 

I think Wood is going to be a very good player, too, and love the pick, and a lot of what I have seen and read, but maybe you should think for a second before posting like that.

 

Normally I agree with you, Kelly, but this post seems a bit off target. The fact is, with a 3-4 alignment, Wood could be called on to block Jenkins or Seymour on 50% of his plays. Depending on which side of center the NT lines up, and on which side the 4LBs in the scheme are shifted, the G is required to block different personnel. If the LBs are to the weak side on a play calling for a run to the weak side, the guard on the weak side may have three potential responsibilities. If the tackle can seal the end, and the C is taking the NT with a good block, the G can push out and take on an interior LB, or and OLB near the line, allowing the back to get to the second level. If the T is not sealing the outside, the G may have to initially help to the outside and open the gap. If the C is not sealing the NT, then the G may have to help over.

 

The fact is, you need players that know how to deal with interior linemen playing at the G position. Against the 3-4 type Ds we are facing, typically, two players will be assigned to deal with the NT. Typically that is the RG, given that the LG will need to be available to pick up the extra LB blitzers from the blind side, or in our case, to be available to help Walker with his responsibilities protecting TE on the inside. That means that Wood is going to see a lot of the NTs playing in the 3-4 schemes that we face. Further, against the 4-3 schemes we see, he will be likely single-handedly working with a DT or will be assisting the C to the inside, leaving Levitre with a 1-1 on the left side against a DT. Either way, he will have plenty of opportunities for knockdowns and pancakes at his position this year. Not sure exactly what your problem was with the post.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Saying Hangartner is better than Fowler and IQ is faint praise.

 

If you truly read Hangartner's bio, it says that he was primarily inactive his rookie year of 05. He got his 15 starts in 06 after Justin Hartwig, the guy just signed as a UFA to be the starter, went down to injury in the first game of the year. In 07, he started the last 4 games at RG when Mike Wahle got injured and couldn't go -- Hartwig played C all year. In 08, he got starts at LG when Travelle Wharton got injured and when Jordan Gross got injured. He started at C when Ryan Kalil, a second year guy, got injured.

 

So, Hangartner is not inexperienced, that is true. But, he was never more than the 6th man and special teams player for the Panthers, who drafted Ryan Kalil to be their starting C in 07 and signed UFA Justin Hartwig to be their starting C in 06.

 

I like that he brings intelligence to the table; that may give the coaches some confidence, unlike IQ, to do some things offensively that they couldn't last year.

[Alaska Darin]

He was ahead of the entire NFL for sacks allowed last year. Butler has improved each season and has become a solid starter.

Butler was TERRIBLE last season. Absolutely terrible.

[C.Biscuit97]

Butler was TERRIBLE last season. Absolutely terrible.

 

 

At the same time, he was playing next to a crappy center and playing through injuries. But either way, it doesn't matter because he isn't a guard anymore. A 6'7" guy who is somewhat lean by NFL o-linemen standards probably will get pushed into the backfield by 350 lbs. DTs. I highly doubt many DEs will have teh same success against Butler.