Further grading the OL

[twist_to_open]

We may want to consider trading for that Peters guy. He looks pretty good.

[BillsVet]

I see that you've mastered the art of self-fulfilling prophecy. You stated that Bills fans are dumb, and proceeded to follow it up with a post that proved you right. Nice work.

 

No. That poster has mastered the art of being skeptical of anything the Buffalo Bills front office and coaching staff does. Anyone who trusts this organization to make a good move is not paying attention or simply ambivalent. It started when Levy was named GM with the same front office TD had. It continued with his naming DJ HC, and finally with RW naming Brandon quasi-GM with absolutely no personnel experience.

 

Frankly, if nine straight seasons of inept play are enough for you to give them a chance, so be it. Just don't expect everyone to follow your flawed logic.

 

This front office has made so many poor decisions and then compound those with more bad ones. Dockery, Tripplett, McCargo, Whitner (to a lesser degree) Youboty, Royal, P. Price, et al in three years should be enough. Apparently it's not.

 

Additionally, missing the playoffs after starting 5-1 and losing all 6 division games is going to make some fans wonder.

[ax4782]

It's amazing how cheerleading fans accept the company line. We are planning (probably) to start 2 OL guys who haven't played a down in the NFL?? Historically very few are successful , even if they are good, which we don't know. I recall drafting a guy by the name of Williams as the 3rd (4th?) pick in the entire draft and he was a dud.. Furthermore Dockery was very mediocre and if we was $100K , he still would be starting.. and don't forget your pom-pom's and continue to cheer for this aimless pathetic team.

 

Ah, yes, the old "glass half-empty resort to name-calling" trick. Actually, the success rate for Rookie OL is better than pretty much at any position. Using Mike Williams as an example is nice, but he had knocks coming out of college, namely, that he lacked motivation and drive to be an NFL starter. That turned out to be true. Keep in mind, the regime that drafted Williams isn't here anymore. I don't think this FO would have chosen Williams. Either way, to suggest that because Mike Williams was a dud, therefore all of our OL draft picks will be duds is absolutely irrational. So, because Walt Patulski didn't pan out, Aaron Maybin won't pan out, right? Give me a break. At least come up with an argument based on facts and with a logic tree that a normal person could follow. Plus the Bills didn't really do much to address the OL for years before or after the Mike Williams pick, at least not in the draft. Take a look at the Bills first round draft history in regards to OL. Joe DeLamielleure, very good in his entire career, including his rookie season. Jim Ritcher and Will Wolford, both were first round picks and had long careers with the Bills and played well in their Rookie seasons. John Fina and Rueben Brown were also solid picks who had long careers. Mike Williams was the last first round lineman drafted by the Bills and of their first round OL choices going back to the 70s, he's the only one that truly busted. I'm not saying that this track record means Wood and Levitre will pan out. I'm only saying that historically, at least for the Bills, OL have come in early in their careers and made a difference. Take the OL the Steelers played with in winning the Super Bowl last year. I believe they had one rookie who was starting on that line, and another who came in frequently as a backup. The fact is, your statement just doesn't cut muster and is, frankly irrational and logically inconsistent.

 

Wood and Levitre are much more in the mould of Ritcher and Wolford. They are very good players, with solid college career numbers, who are both certainly better than what we had at LG last year in Dockery. Clearly if the Bills cut Dockery, they didn't think he was starter material on this team. So to say that he would be starting for a 100k salary, besides not making a lick of sense, is just imbicilic. Since you seem to hate the Bills so much and think they are "aimless" and "pathetic" why don't you go and root for some other team that you think has a chance of winning. Your attitude seems perfect for a Pats* message board. If you are this empty of hope in the offseason, I'd hate to see what you're like five or six games in.

[tennesseeboy]

Offensive line is the big questionmark. If they don't perform we are in very very big trouble.

[DazedandConfused]

Bills fans are dumb. I have come to that undeniable conclusion. First, it was not DJ's fault we sucked last year. No coach can win without talent, which brings us to point number two: Our offensive line stinks. I'm sick and tired of people trying to convince themselves that Brad Butler and Langston Walker are good. I'm sick of people saying "I'm happy with our line the way it is" It is ignorant beyond compare. We all know that if the Bills don't address the O-line, we are going to get mauled. Granted, we have two nice rookie prospects, but they are interior linemen and ROOKIES that are going to get beat more often than not while learning the pro game, no matter how good they end up becoming. But neither of those guys does sh-- to mitigate the fact that we are looking at the worst tandem of starting tackles in the NFL today, and possibly in NFL history. And yes...it *IS* that bad. No really, it's bad. So just stop the Brad Butler/Langston Walker Blow-a-thon already please ok? Because it is making me and every non-Bills NFL fan sick.

 

All that being said I have to say I think the Bills have enough weapons to compete even with horrible play at the tackles. Our defense should be solid and our offense will have big strike capabilities which will net yards just because people won't be able to cheat us on defense, but if we had a say pro-bowl caliber left tackle we could probably be considered a legit SB contender.

I do not think this wholesale indictment of the quality of the OL is merited. Did this unit produce at an inadequate level in 08.

 

Yep.

 

The LG, LT and C are gone from this team when they easily could have kept any of the three of them and the proof is simply in the pudding that this unit was inadequate last year.

 

Even worse there are good statistical indication (not proof in my book because stats are like Mark Twain said, there are three kinds of untruth in this world, lies, damn lies and statistics- one can selectively choose and bend almost all statistics to make a particular case, but that being said it is also stupid to totally ignore statistics even though they do not prove most things because they can be an INDICATOR of a greater truth when used properly, judiciously and are subjected to analysis to find the greater truth) that the team did not do well at several important aspects of the game.

 

This includes being a force in short yardage that commanded the line, depending upon the shifty moves of Lynch to pick up positive yards on most plays but Lynch had a record of the first contact on him coming behind the LOS but he was good enough to avoid being tackled for a loss and also giving up the critical sack in 08 at the wrong time.

 

However, the INDICATION that the problem was not simply that these were talentless bums is seen in the 07 season. Despite the fact there is good statistical indication that this group was underperformers in short yardage, the simple fact is that this team gave up the fewest sacks ever recorded in the history of this stat. Is it proof that they were great.

 

No.

 

The ultimate stat is the W/L and this TEAM was 7-9. However, a failure of the pass pro does not appear to be the reason for this slightly less than adequate team performance as indicated by the low sack numbers. This sack number total appears to be an indicator of something real in that it is a compilation stat which shows this team gave up few sacks on a consistent basis. Few would argue this is not important and they would look quite stupid if they made that claim. This OL with good support from the TE as they often were in max protect mode and nice blitz pick-ups even though they usually went with a rookie RB prevented the QB from being tackled for a loss at a record pace.

 

This number is a good indicator that while playing against some of the most talented sack meisters in the league a number of times (two face-offs a season against Jason Taylor and the Jets fielded DL guys who were sack producers) and the OL held the line on the much over-rated but still a good indicator sack stat. They even did this with a rookie QB starting a lot of the games and with the pluses and minuses of a running QB in Losman who called upon the OL to make lots of play adjustments and hold their blocks a long time because JP might escape if they held their blocks.

 

The non-sack production in 07 is no proof that this OL was great but is a very solid indicator that this crew showed some talent at an important aspect of the game.

 

2. Was this a singleshot stat where they excelled at pass pro at the cost of sucking against the run?

 

No. A legit question as it is often the case that the football lord giveth in one area of the game but this is balanced by he/she taking away in some other portion of the game. The Bills O was not consistently solid in 07 so this may be an INDICATOR that this was the problem. However, on a deeper look, the 07 team actually showed some good run attack achievement as they blocked for a rookie RB to chalk up a 1000+ yards.

 

This also was not great and the failings of this team in short yardage are still real. However, this team and its RB provided a real world consistent threat that indicates that it was not that the players simply sucked and could do nothing but that for a variety of reasons they were inadequate last year.

[spartacus]

I do not think this wholesale indictment of the quality of the OL is merited. Did this unit produce at an inadequate level in 08.

 

Yep.

 

The LG, LT and C are gone from this team when they easily could have kept any of the three of them and the proof is simply in the pudding that this unit was inadequate last year.

 

Even worse there are good statistical indication (not proof in my book because stats are like Mark Twain said, there are three kinds of untruth in this world, lies, damn lies and statistics- one can selectively choose and bend almost all statistics to make a particular case, but that being said it is also stupid to totally ignore statistics even though they do not prove most things because they can be an INDICATOR of a greater truth when used properly, judiciously and are subjected to analysis to find the greater truth) that the team did not do well at several important aspects of the game.

 

This includes being a force in short yardage that commanded the line, depending upon the shifty moves of Lynch to pick up positive yards on most plays but Lynch had a record of the first contact on him coming behind the LOS but he was good enough to avoid being tackled for a loss and also giving up the critical sack in 08 at the wrong time.

 

However, the INDICATION that the problem was not simply that these were talentless bums is seen in the 07 season. Despite the fact there is good statistical indication that this group was underperformers in short yardage, the simple fact is that this team gave up the fewest sacks ever recorded in the history of this stat. Is it proof that they were great.

 

No.

 

The ultimate stat is the W/L and this TEAM was 7-9. However, a failure of the pass pro does not appear to be the reason for this slightly less than adequate team performance as indicated by the low sack numbers. This sack number total appears to be an indicator of something real in that it is a compilation stat which shows this team gave up few sacks on a consistent basis. Few would argue this is not important and they would look quite stupid if they made that claim. This OL with good support from the TE as they often were in max protect mode and nice blitz pick-ups even though they usually went with a rookie RB prevented the QB from being tackled for a loss at a record pace.

 

This number is a good indicator that while playing against some of the most talented sack meisters in the league a number of times (two face-offs a season against Jason Taylor and the Jets fielded DL guys who were sack producers) and the OL held the line on the much over-rated but still a good indicator sack stat. They even did this with a rookie QB starting a lot of the games and with the pluses and minuses of a running QB in Losman who called upon the OL to make lots of play adjustments and hold their blocks a long time because JP might escape if they held their blocks.

 

The non-sack production in 07 is no proof that this OL was great but is a very solid indicator that this crew showed some talent at an important aspect of the game.

 

2. Was this a singleshot stat where they excelled at pass pro at the cost of sucking against the run?

 

No. A legit question as it is often the case that the football lord giveth in one area of the game but this is balanced by he/she taking away in some other portion of the game. The Bills O was not consistently solid in 07 so this may be an INDICATOR that this was the problem. However, on a deeper look, the 07 team actually showed some good run attack achievement as they blocked for a rookie RB to chalk up a 1000+ yards.

 

This also was not great and the failings of this team in short yardage are still real. However, this team and its RB provided a real world consistent threat that indicates that it was not that the players simply sucked and could do nothing but that for a variety of reasons they were inadequate last year.

 

 

excuses, dam excuses and statistics

 

replacing the entire OL in one off-season does not ensure that it will be any better in 2009, especially when you got rid of a pro bowl LT a highly paid LG, replaced them with rookies and 4 members will play different positions in 2009.

 

hey it may work without a flaw from day 1

 

then again still looking for those flying pigs

[BillsVet]

excuses, dam excuses and statistics

 

replacing the entire OL in one off-season does not ensure that it will be any better in 2009, especially when you got rid of a pro bowl LT a highly paid LG, replaced them with rookies and 4 members will play positions in 2009.

 

hey it may work without a flaw from day 1

 

then again still looking for those flying pigs

 

Buffalo re-made their 04-05 OL over in 06-07. It didn't work. Now the unit that remained together from 07-08 has been blown up for 09. Why should anyone believe they got it right this time by inserting two rookies (who I'm high on, but are rookies) a UFA C who hasn't played the position if it weren't for injuries in Carolina, and two guys not suited to their positions at OT?

 

Changing things does not equate to change for the better. It is the current front office making these changes, and so far they're not doing so well. The only change this team needs is a blown up front office. That means a real GM and at least a new pro personnel director.

[VOR]

Buffalo re-made their 04-05 OL over in 06-07. It didn't work. Now the unit that remained together from 07-08 has been blown up for 09. Why should anyone believe they got it right this time by inserting two rookies (who I'm high on, but are rookies) a UFA C who hasn't played the position if it weren't for injuries in Carolina, and two guys not suited to their positions at OT?

 

Changing things does not equate to change for the better. It is the current front office making these changes, and so far they're not doing so well. The only change this team needs is a blown up front office. That means a real GM and at least a new pro personnel director.

LOL! So the answer is to blow-up the FO. Because that's the easy/surefire solution.

 

Please armchair GM's, give me what you think would be a better plan on the OL. I'm all ears.

[spartacus]

LOL! So the answer is to blow-up the FO. Because that's the easy/surefire solution.

 

Please armchair GM's, give me what you think would be a better plan on the OL. I'm all ears.

 

As noted above, the front office is the problem.

 

the plan should be to build a quality football team, not to simply field the cheapest OL possible.

 

first of all they should have extended Peters last year

 

a pro bowl LT is a great place to start

 

failing that, they should have sucked it up and signed him this year.

 

with a plan to sign Peters, they should have had a plan in place to trade Dockery - not some last gasp nonsense that was more a media creation to try to save face

 

and why the need to move Dockery - when they could have paid the bonus but got a trade to recoup some value. Obviously he had value, since he was signed the day after he was cut.

 

 

now they have neither of them - and will be showing Walker the door next year after he tanks at LT

[busterramsey]

Ah, yes, the old "glass half-empty resort to name-calling" trick. Actually, the success rate for Rookie OL is better than pretty much at any position. Using Mike Williams as an example is nice, but he had knocks coming out of college, namely, that he lacked motivation and drive to be an NFL starter. That turned out to be true. Keep in mind, the regime that drafted Williams isn't here anymore. I don't think this FO would have chosen Williams. Either way, to suggest that because Mike Williams was a dud, therefore all of our OL draft picks will be duds is absolutely irrational. So, because Walt Patulski didn't pan out, Aaron Maybin won't pan out, right? Give me a break. At least come up with an argument based on facts and with a logic tree that a normal person could follow. Plus the Bills didn't really do much to address the OL for years before or after the Mike Williams pick, at least not in the draft. Take a look at the Bills first round draft history in regards to OL. Joe DeLamielleure, very good in his entire career, including his rookie season. Jim Ritcher and Will Wolford, both were first round picks and had long careers with the Bills and played well in their Rookie seasons. John Fina and Rueben Brown were also solid picks who had long careers. Mike Williams was the last first round lineman drafted by the Bills and of their first round OL choices going back to the 70s, he's the only one that truly busted. I'm not saying that this track record means Wood and Levitre will pan out. I'm only saying that historically, at least for the Bills, OL have come in early in their careers and made a difference. Take the OL the Steelers played with in winning the Super Bowl last year. I believe they had one rookie who was starting on that line, and another who came in frequently as a backup. The fact is, your statement just doesn't cut muster and is, frankly irrational and logically inconsistent.

 

Wood and Levitre are much more in the mould of Ritcher and Wolford. They are very good players, with solid college career numbers, who are both certainly better than what we had at LG last year in Dockery. Clearly if the Bills cut Dockery, they didn't think he was starter material on this team. So to say that he would be starting for a 100k salary, besides not making a lick of sense, is just imbicilic. Since you seem to hate the Bills so much and think they are "aimless" and "pathetic" why don't you go and root for some other team that you think has a chance of winning. Your attitude seems perfect for a Pats* message board. If you are this empty of hope in the offseason, I'd hate to see what you're like five or six games in.

 

So to be critcal is not tp be a fan?? You cheerleaders mix up reality and rooting; they do not mean the same.. I'll be rooting for the Bills as usual. I hope they go undefeated, but that doesn't mean I don't think they'll suck! But buying the company line is harmful beacuse what incentive is there for the scum Wislon to spend money.. We're the only team w/o a GM!!, how pathetic is that! Our O-line is going to be the worse we've seen in awhile. No Holds for any running backs. Boy do I hope I'm wrong, and I'll be cheering on every play but reality beats myth in the real world..

[VOR]

As noted above, the front office is the problem.

 

the plan should be to build a quality football team, not to simply field the cheapest OL possible.

 

first of all they should have extended Peters last year

 

a pro bowl LT is a great place to start

 

failing that, they should have sucked it up and signed him this year.

 

with a plan to sign Peters, they should have had a plan in place to trade Dockery - not some last gasp nonsense that was more a media creation to try to save face

 

and why the need to move Dockery - when they could have paid the bonus but got a trade to recoup some value. Obviously he had value, since he was signed the day after he was cut.

 

 

now they have neither of them - and will be showing Walker the door next year after he tanks at LT

 

The Bills tried to negotiate with Peters last off-season, but he refused to even talk to them. This past off-season he demanded to be the highest-paid LT in the game after a subpar season. I have no problem with how the they handled him, after giving him a large extension after just 2 years of developing him, only to see him act like a dick after his first Pro Bowl season, and continue to act like a dick after a subpar season. I also wasn't keen on the Bills throwing a ton of money at him, only to find out last year wasn't a fluke and that he'll continue to miss at least 2 games a year due to injury and/or has had his talent robbed by injury. After seeing him lie and make excuses at his Philly PC, I was glad he and his pathetic attitude are gone. Besides, committing almost 10% of the salary cap to a LT is crazy, especially since you don't need a great LT to be successful.

 

As for Dockery, they tried trading him, and all they got was a last-second 2010 7th round offer. What more did you fantasize they'd get? And just because they didn't have a plan (which isn't true since they were looking at OG's, who are still available, and still had the draft) for his replacement is no reason not to cut him.

 

The Bills obviously like Wood and Levitre enough that they're willing to starter them despite being able to make minimal changes by having Wood or Levitre start at LG and putting Chambers or Bell at LT. And you see, those options still exist.

[DieHardBillsFan]

The FO was dumb to trade Peters and all attempts to bring in any new linemen are dumb because anyone we sign is a scrub or unproven and Peters is the greatest OT ever and the FO is dumb and we have the only offense in the entire league that's completely reliant on the greatest OT ever (did I mention that was Peters) and the FO is dumb and oh yeah any fan that doesn't realize that is also dumb because our FO sucks for trading the greatest player ever and dooming our entire team to sucking because Peters was the only player on the team that ever allowed us to score or did anything so the FO sucks?

 

Someone finally gets it.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BillsVet]

So to be critcal is not tp be a fan??

 

To some, criticism before everything becomes obvious is uncalled for. So many want to "hope" things work out and trust the current front office. Their attempts to rebuild the OL with scrubs didn't work. They then signed big dollar UFA's that didn't work either. Now they've tried going the patient route with drafted players. I hope it works, but trusting this front office is like trusting a politician to make your life better.

 

Criticism of Levy was attacked during 07 and into 08. Now we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that his era was not as successful as previously thought. Some fans know when things won't work, based on experience.

 

We're the only team w/o a GM!!, how pathetic is that! Our O-line is going to be the worse we've seen in awhile. No Holds for any running backs. Boy do I hope I'm wrong, and I'll be cheering on every play but reality beats myth in the real world..

 

Other teams do not have GM's. Cincinnati, Oakland, and Dallas all have owners who want to run the entire show. All have failed miserably. It's amazing that Buffalo thinks they can win with a man who had nothing to do with personnel before 2008.

 

I'll be cheering as well at those home games and watching on TV. Thing is, casual uniformed fans dot the landscape and are more interested in hoping that knowing. It's why they don't pay attention to what winning franchises like NYG, NE, PHI, IND, SD, BAL, et al, are doing to win. Each of those teams has a solid front office who know what it takes to build a winner.

[spartacus]

The Bills tried to negotiate with Peters last off-season, but he refused to even talk to them. This past off-season he demanded to be the highest-paid LT in the game after a subpar season. I have no problem with how the they handled him, after giving him a large extension after just 2 years of developing him, only to see him act like a dick after his first Pro Bowl season, and continue to act like a dick after a subpar season. I also wasn't keen on the Bills throwing a ton of money at him, only to find out last year wasn't a fluke and that he'll continue to miss at least 2 games a year due to injury and/or has had his talent robbed by injury. After seeing him lie and make excuses at his Philly PC, I was glad he and his pathetic attitude are gone. Besides, committing almost 10% of the salary cap to a LT is crazy, especially since you don't need a great LT to be successful.

 

As for Dockery, they tried trading him, and all they got was a last-second 2010 7th round offer. What more did you fantasize they'd get? And just because they didn't have a plan (which isn't true since they were looking at OG's, who are still available, and still had the draft) for his replacement is no reason not to cut him.

 

The Bills obviously like Wood and Levitre enough that they're willing to starter them despite being able to make minimal changes by having Wood or Levitre start at LG and putting Chambers or Bell at LT. And you see, those options still exist.

1. "The Bills tried to negotiate with Peters last off-season" - This is an outright falsehood now that Brandon has gone on record saying they told Peters early in 2008 that they would not be extending him in 2008 with 3 years left on his deal. Peters is not without fault in how he handled the situation, but the Bills bungled this from the beginning. Instead of working out a compromise with their best player, they opted to play hardball and it did not work out well for the team. They got an unhappy and underperforming Peters in 2008 and moved him with no nobody close to his talent to replace him in 2009.

 

2. "Dockery" The Bills got nothing for a player they evaluated to be good enough to justify a $50 million contract just 2 years ago. Fine if they want to move the guy, but it seems they made that decision 2 days before the bonus day and could not do a deal. why not plan earlier or eat the bonus and continue to look for a trade partner??

 

You trust the guys that signed Dockery and all of the other crappy free agent OL to wake up and suddenly be able to identify a good OL. Hopefully the guys can play, but as rookies it may take time.

 

3. Whether it's Chambers, Bell or Walker at LT - unlike in 2008, the Bills will need to dedicate a TE and RB to the left side on all pass plays longer than 5 yards. That leaves Butler all alone on the right side at a new position.

[ax4782]

So to be critcal is not tp be a fan?? You cheerleaders mix up reality and rooting; they do not mean the same.. I'll be rooting for the Bills as usual. I hope they go undefeated, but that doesn't mean I don't think they'll suck! But buying the company line is harmful beacuse what incentive is there for the scum Wislon to spend money.. We're the only team w/o a GM!!, how pathetic is that! Our O-line is going to be the worse we've seen in awhile. No Holds for any running backs. Boy do I hope I'm wrong, and I'll be cheering on every play but reality beats myth in the real world..

 

Nothing in my post said anything to that effect. What I said was that perhaps we should actually wait and see what the line looks like, say in preseason, or in an actual regular season game before we start saying they suck, are terrible and worthless. Many of the people now saying this are the same ones who have been bithcing for years that we haven't drafted any OL and haven't tried to make the line better in FA. Now, the Bills draft two of the best linemen in the draft to shore up an interior line that was shady at best last year at C and RG, and they complain that the team hasn't done anything to fix the line. Please. I'm not saying don't complain. I do my fair share on this board. But, hypocritical always negative, the sky is always falling, complaints are really just annoying.

 

I'm sorry that you made the statement about Mike Williams and thought that no one would call you on it. The fact is, first round linemen, particularly those selected by the Bills, actually have a very solid success rate, particularly on the interior. If history is any signaly, Wood should be very good, and from all accounts Levitre likely will make a very successful switch from T to G. I'm not saying they won't suck. The line very well could be the worst ever. Of course, they could be one of the best ever as well. No one knows. They haven't even practiced together in OTAs, let alone played together on the field, even in preseason. Let's not rush to judgment before we see what we've got in these players.

 

We saw what happened last year, and that didn't work. Let's see what we have in the team this year before making blanket, completely unfounded statements about how good or bad the line is going to be.

[ax4782]

1. "The Bills tried to negotiate with Peters last off-season" - This is an outright falsehood now that Brandon has gone on record saying they told Peters early in 2008 that they would not be extending him in 2008 with 3 years left on his deal. Peters is not without fault in how he handled the situation, but the Bills bungled this from the beginning. Instead of working out a compromise with their best player, they opted to play hardball and it did not work out well for the team. They got an unhappy and underperforming Peters in 2008 and moved him with no nobody close to his talent to replace him in 2009.

 

2. "Dockery" The Bills got nothing for a player they evaluated to be good enough to justify a $50 million contract just 2 years ago. Fine if they want to move the guy, but it seems they made that decision 2 days before the bonus day and could not do a deal. why not plan earlier or eat the bonus and continue to look for a trade partner??

 

You trust the guys that signed Dockery and all of the other crappy free agent OL to wake up and suddenly be able to identify a good OL. Hopefully the guys can play, but as rookies it may take time.

 

3. Whether it's Chambers, Bell or Walker at LT - unlike in 2008, the Bills will need to dedicate a TE and RB to the left side on all pass plays longer than 5 yards. That leaves Butler all alone on the right side at a new position.

 

1. Peters didn't want to play here. The Bills offered him a deal that was by all accounts almost exactly like the one he got in Philly. When the Bills offered it, his agent wouldn't even sniff in their direction. Plus, no matter what you keep saying on the subject, Peters was not that good last year, regardless of whether he went to the pro bowl or not. The fact is if he is that motivated by money that he won't play for the Bills because he's busy thinking about his contract, he's not worth keeping around. If he wanted the money he should have performed at his best last season. The 11.5 sacks he gave up in 14 games speaks volumes. But of course, I'm sure you'll come back and say that somehow, none of those sacks were his fault.

 

2. Dockery was arguably worse than Peters on the left side. The fans at my local bar where we watch the game were referring to him as the swinging door by the end of the season. Getting rid of him wasn't a bad move, trade or no trade. The fact that the FO mishandled the move of Dockery, doesn't mean that suddenly their draft must have been terrible. That takes one heck of a leap of logic without much of a connection.

 

3. You assume that none of those players would be able to handle the assignment on the left side. The fact is, most plays depending on the down, distance, number of men in the box, and a bunch of other factors, on pass plays more than five yards, have the TE, RB, or FB playing as a chip man before breaking into their route. Walker played well at LT last year against Seattle, and against JAX. He didn't look as slow or "fat" as you seem to like to make him out to be. If it is Walker on the left side, I think he'll do better than you are giving him credit for. Only time will tell, since they haven't even hit OTAs. Keep in mind, Peters was fat, slow, and easily winded for most of the season last year, and you seem to think that he was worth every penny, even though his play didn't demonstrate anything of the sort. Lastly, RT is NOT a new position for Butler. He played that position for three years in college and has played there sparingly, but well for the Bills.

[thewildrabbit]

All college players are projects and nobody really knows if they can get the job done once the footballs start flying. The list of players that were drafted and don't make it to the first game is endless.

 

This FO and coaching staff are really going out on a limb by stating that 2 rookies and backup free agent will start this season, not to mention that one rookie will be in a position he didn't play in college.

 

Considering teams like the Patriots draft linemen and they usually sit on third and second string for a few years learning the system and technique while playing special teams,so when called upon there is no drop off between the starters and back ups.

 

I can only think that the Bills should have gone this route 3 years ago and not wasted the time and money on Dockery and Walker.

 

Can you say rebuilding mode unless they can get in an experienced tackle, there are still a few out there,Levi Jones perhaps?

 

from scout.com http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&amp...rc=16&pid=3

Pos Pos

Rank Rating Name Type Yr Ht/Wt College 2008 Team Signed Team

OT 1 Orlando Pace UFA 11 6-7/320 Ohio State St. Louis Chicago

OT 2**** Levi Jones UFA 7 6-5/307 Arizona State Cincinnati ****

OT 3 Marvel Smith UFA 9 6-5/321 Arizona State Pittsburgh San Francisco

OT 4**** Mark Tauscher UFA 9 6-4/315 Wisconsin Green Bay ****

OT 5**** Jon Runyan UFA 13 6-7/330 Michigan Philadelphia ****

OT 6 Tra Thomas UFA 11 6-7/335 Florida State Philadelphia Jacksonville

OT 7 Stacy Andrews UFA 5 6-7/342 Mississippi Cincinnati Philadelphia

OT 8 Willie Colon RFA 3 6-3/315 Hofstra Pittsburgh Pittsburgh

OT 9 Kevin Shaffer UFA 7 6-5/315 Tulsa Cleveland Chicago

OT 10*** Jonas Jennings UFA 8 6-3/335 Georgia San Francisco ****

OT 11 Khalif Barnes UFA 4 6-5/325 Washington Jacksonville Oakland

OT 12*** Tyson Clabo RFA 4 6-6/314 Wake Forest Atlanta ****

OT 13 Donald Penn RFA 3 6-5/305 Utah State Tampa Bay Tampa Bay

OT 14 Jon Stinchcomb UFA 6 6-5/315 Georgia New Orleans New Orleans

OT 15*** Kwame Harris UFA 6 6-7/320 Stanford Oakland ****

OT 16 John St. Clair UFA 9 6-5/315 Virginia Chicago Cleveland

OT 17 Daniel Loper UFA 4 6-6/320 Texas Tech Tennessee Detroit

OT 18 Ray Willis UFA 4 6-6/327 Florida State Seattle Seattle

OT 19 George Foster UFA 6 6-5/332 Georgia Detroit Detroit

OT 20** Ephraim Salaam UFA 11 6-7/300 San Diego State Houston

OT 21 Oliver Ross UFA 10 6-4/327 Iowa State New England Arizona

OT 22** Anthony Davis UFA 5 6-4/329 Virginia Tech St. Louis ****

OT 23 Brandon Gorin UFA 7 6-6/308 Purdue St. Louis Denver

OT 24 Adam Goldberg UFA 5 6-7/318 Wyoming St. Louis St. Louis

OT 25 Marcus Johnson UFA 4 6-6/310 Mississippi Minnesota Oakland

OT 26 Frank Omiyale UFA 4 6-4/310 Tennessee Tech Carolina Chicago

OT 27 Rashad Butler RFA 3 6-4/293 Miami (FL) Houston Houston

OT NR* Rob Petitti UFA 4 6-6/327 Pittsburgh St. Louis ****

OT NR Trai Essex UFA 4 6-4/324 Northwestern Pittsburgh Pittsburgh

OT NR Fred Miller UFA 13 6-7/314 Baylor Chicago ****

OT NR* Kirk Chambers UFA 4 6-7/315 Stanford Buffalo Buffalo

OT NR Zach Strief RFA 3 6-7/349 Northwestern New Orleans New Orleans

OT NR Seth Wand UFA 6 6-7/330 Northwest Missouri State Oakland

OT NR Wesley Britt UFA 3 6-8/312 Alabama New England New England

 

make note of the one star for Kirk Chambers who was resigned