Further grading the OL

[Kelly the Dog]

Normally I agree with you, Kelly, but this post seems a bit off target. The fact is, with a 3-4 alignment, Wood could be called on to block Jenkins or Seymour on 50% of his plays. Depending on which side of center the NT lines up, and on which side the 4LBs in the scheme are shifted, the G is required to block different personnel. If the LBs are to the weak side on a play calling for a run to the weak side, the guard on the weak side may have three potential responsibilities. If the tackle can seal the end, and the C is taking the NT with a good block, the G can push out and take on an interior LB, or and OLB near the line, allowing the back to get to the second level. If the T is not sealing the outside, the G may have to initially help to the outside and open the gap. If the C is not sealing the NT, then the G may have to help over.

 

The fact is, you need players that know how to deal with interior linemen playing at the G position. Against the 3-4 type Ds we are facing, typically, two players will be assigned to deal with the NT. Typically that is the RG, given that the LG will need to be available to pick up the extra LB blitzers from the blind side, or in our case, to be available to help Walker with his responsibilities protecting TE on the inside. That means that Wood is going to see a lot of the NTs playing in the 3-4 schemes that we face. Further, against the 4-3 schemes we see, he will be likely single-handedly working with a DT or will be assisting the C to the inside, leaving Levitre with a 1-1 on the left side against a DT. Either way, he will have plenty of opportunities for knockdowns and pancakes at his position this year. Not sure exactly what your problem was with the post.

Sounds like you're talking about Wilfork though. Wood is slated to play RG. Seymour is usually the RDE with Warren as the LDE and Wilfork as the NT. Seymour is lining up three-four full players away from Wood.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

Bills fans are dumb. I have come to that undeniable conclusion. First, it was not DJ's fault we sucked last year. No coach can win without talent, which brings us to point number two: Our offensive line stinks. I'm sick and tired of people trying to convince themselves that Brad Butler and Langston Walker are good. I'm sick of people saying "I'm happy with our line the way it is" It is ignorant beyond compare. We all know that if the Bills don't address the O-line, we are going to get mauled. Granted, we have two nice rookie prospects, but they are interior linemen and ROOKIES that are going to get beat more often than not while learning the pro game, no matter how good they end up becoming. But neither of those guys does sh-- to mitigate the fact that we are looking at the worst tandem of starting tackles in the NFL today, and possibly in NFL history. And yes...it *IS* that bad. No really, it's bad. So just stop the Brad Butler/Langston Walker Blow-a-thon already please ok? Because it is making me and every non-Bills NFL fan sick.

 

All that being said I have to say I think the Bills have enough weapons to compete even with horrible play at the tackles. Our defense should be solid and our offense will have big strike capabilities which will net yards just because people won't be able to cheat us on defense, but if we had a say pro-bowl caliber left tackle we could probably be considered a legit SB contender.

[Kelly the Dog]

Butler was TERRIBLE last season. Absolutely terrible.

 

I agree. I actually could realistically see him start the season on the bench IF we sign Levi Jones, which is of course completely up in the air but a legitimate possibility. If Jones plays LT, Walker is going to start at RT. Hangartner is surely to start the season at C and it's pretty much a lock that Eric Wood is going to start at one of the guards, and right now it is RG. That leaves Butler and Levitre to battle it out in training camp for the LG spot.

 

If I had to guess, Jauron and Shonert would start the season with Butler so we didn't have two rookie guards starting, unless Butler gets blown away by Levitre, which is within the realm of possibility, IMO.

 

It's also possible, but perhaps not likely, that the Bills are serious about this no huddle approach. With Levi Jones being a little banged-up and Langston Walker probably needing a walker to make it up to the line of scrimmage in a no huddle after a series or two, I could imagine them starting Levirte at guard and platooning Butler in at the tackle spots for a series or two at a time to keep the tackles fresh. It's very possible, if we don't sign Levi, and Walker goes to LT, that they do this with Chambers spelling Walker and Butler.

 

Of course, the most likely scenario, is that we don't sign Levi, we say we are going to use the no huddle a lot, we start the season with it, it works pretty good, and then we abandon it for the rest of the year.

[VOR]

Saying Hangartner is better than Fowler and IQ is faint praise.

 

If you truly read Hangartner's bio, it says that he was primarily inactive his rookie year of 05. He got his 15 starts in 06 after Justin Hartwig, the guy just signed as a UFA to be the starter, went down to injury in the first game of the year. In 07, he started the last 4 games at RG when Mike Wahle got injured and couldn't go -- Hartwig played C all year. In 08, he got starts at LG when Travelle Wharton got injured and when Jordan Gross got injured. He started at C when Ryan Kalil, a second year guy, got injured.

 

So, Hangartner is not inexperienced, that is true. But, he was never more than the 6th man and special teams player for the Panthers, who drafted Ryan Kalil to be their starting C in 07 and signed UFA Justin Hartwig to be their starting C in 06.

 

I like that he brings intelligence to the table; that may give the coaches some confidence, unlike IQ, to do some things offensively that they couldn't last year.

If you're trying to say that the Panthers not naming Hangartner a starter is proof that he's not one, it's as faint a criticism as you say the praise for him being better than Preston/Fowler is. It's also the same line of reasoning that had some claiming that since the Jags were willing to unload Stroud, he was washed-up and the Jags would be better for it.

 

The Panthers aren't infallible. To wit, they let Hartwig go prior to last season, and all he did was stay healthy for 16 games and anchor the O-line for the SB-winning Steelers. Meanwhile Kalil and others got injured and the Panthers had to call on Hangartner to start for them, and they didn't miss a beat.

 

And the Panthers wanted him back, and the fans did as well, but the Panthers have no cap room. That says something since fans usually trash a player who leaves.

[Kelly the Dog]

If you're trying to say that the Panthers not naming Hangartner a starter is proof that he's not one, it's as faint a criticism as you say the praise for him being better than Preston/Fowler is. It's also the same line of reasoning that had some claiming that since the Jags were willing to unload Stroud, he was washed-up and the Jags would be better for it.

 

The Panthers aren't infallible. To wit, they let Hartwig go prior to last season, and all he did was stay healthy for 16 games and anchor the O-line for the SB-winning Steelers. Meanwhile Kalil and others got injured and the Panthers had to call on Hangartner to start for them, and they didn't miss a beat.

 

And the Panthers wanted him back, and the fans did as well, but the Panthers have no cap room. That says something since fans usually trash a player who leaves.

All of that may be true (although I dont think the analogy is a good one), but if the Panthers did resign Hangartner, he wasn't at all a lock to be a starter there. And, barring injury again, easily could have, if not likely would have, began the season as a back-up.

[Sisyphean Bills]

All of that may be true (although I dont think the analogy is a good one), but if the Panthers did resign Hangartner, he wasn't at all a lock to be a starter there. And, barring injury again, easily could have, if not likely would have, began the season as a back-up.

It's actually not all true. The truth is that Hangartner was the 6th lineman. That doesn't mean "he sucks" nor would an intelligent person take that to be some sort of harsh "criticism". It is nothing but the fact of the matter -- Hangartner was never better than 6th on the Panthers line. Like you say, the Panthers were never going to promise him a job as the starting C like Jauron did. He's a good player, but some people want to make out that he is some highly coveted world-beating stud -- not unlike Derrick Dockery and Tuten Reyes in years past.

[ax4782]

It's actually not all true. The truth is that Hangartner was the 6th lineman. That doesn't mean "he sucks" nor would an intelligent person take that to be some sort of harsh "criticism". It is nothing but the fact of the matter -- Hangartner was never better than 6th on the Panthers line. Like you say, the Panthers were never going to promise him a job as the starting C like Jauron did. He's a good player, but some people want to make out that he is some highly coveted world-beating stud -- not unlike Derrick Dockery and Tuten Reyes in years past.

 

Except, when he has played, he has looked much better than either Dockery or Reyes ever did in a Bills jersey or otherwise. I don't think anyone is claiming that he is the best OL on the team, or was the best OL available in FA. The point is that people say that our line is going to suck this year. That's premature, first of all, considering we haven't even had OTAs yet and haven't had a chance to see if they can gel as a unit. But second, people crow about how our line is not improved from last year. Hangartner is an improvement over Fowler/Preston, no matter how you slice it. Wood and Levitre as rookies look like they'll be better than Dockery ever was in a Bills uni. Whether Walker and Butler can make a smooth transition to the tackle position is up for debate. Butler was a very good RT in college and has better measureables at that position than he does as a guard. I think the plan was to put him at RT eventually anyway, but he needed work on his technique, which is what interior lineman have to focus on against larger players. Walker, well, he looked good over at LT when he started against Seattle and in his limited time there against the Jags, but whether he can man that spot alone all season is up for debate. I think overall we are better on the OL than we were last year, particularly on the interior. Rookie OLs usually don't have the college to pro transition issues that other positions have as the techniques and leverage skills aren't really all that different. The only change is the speed of the game, and for OL that is an easier thing to adjust to. The Ts are suspect, and not great, but they may be adequate to get the job done.

[ax4782]

Bills fans are dumb. I have come to that undeniable conclusion. First, it was not DJ's fault we sucked last year. No coach can win without talent, which brings us to point number two: Our offensive line stinks. I'm sick and tired of people trying to convince themselves that Brad Butler and Langston Walker are good. I'm sick of people saying "I'm happy with our line the way it is" It is ignorant beyond compare. We all know that if the Bills don't address the O-line, we are going to get mauled. Granted, we have two nice rookie prospects, but they are interior linemen and ROOKIES that are going to get beat more often than not while learning the pro game, no matter how good they end up becoming. But neither of those guys does sh-- to mitigate the fact that we are looking at the worst tandem of starting tackles in the NFL today, and possibly in NFL history. And yes...it *IS* that bad. No really, it's bad. So just stop the Brad Butler/Langston Walker Blow-a-thon already please ok? Because it is making me and every non-Bills NFL fan sick.

 

All that being said I have to say I think the Bills have enough weapons to compete even with horrible play at the tackles. Our defense should be solid and our offense will have big strike capabilities which will net yards just because people won't be able to cheat us on defense, but if we had a say pro-bowl caliber left tackle we could probably be considered a legit SB contender.

 

I see that you've mastered the art of self-fulfilling prophecy. You stated that Bills fans are dumb, and proceeded to follow it up with a post that proved you right. Nice work.

[Lurker]

dumb.

Thanks for taking the time to type that...

[Dan]

Why don't we just pin a thread that says: the FO was dumb to trade Peters and all attempts to bring in any new linemen are dumb because anyone we sign is a scrub or unproven and Peters is the greatest OT ever and the FO is dumb and we have the only offense in the entire league that's completely reliant on the greatest OT ever (did I mention that was Peters) and the FO is dumb and oh yeah any fan that doesn't realize that is also dumb because our FO sucks for trading the greatest player ever and dooming our entire team to sucking because Peters was the only player on the team that ever allowed us to score or did anything so the FO sucks?

[VOR]

It's actually not all true. The truth is that Hangartner was the 6th lineman. That doesn't mean "he sucks" nor would an intelligent person take that to be some sort of harsh "criticism". It is nothing but the fact of the matter -- Hangartner was never better than 6th on the Panthers line. Like you say, the Panthers were never going to promise him a job as the starting C like Jauron did. He's a good player, but some people want to make out that he is some highly coveted world-beating stud -- not unlike Derrick Dockery and Tuten Reyes in years past.

 

All of that may be true (although I dont think the analogy is a good one), but if the Panthers did resign Hangartner, he wasn't at all a lock to be a starter there. And, barring injury again, easily could have, if not likely would have, began the season as a back-up.

 

Maybe he would have still been the 6th OL again. What I was saying is that the Panthers aren't infallible when it comes to their OL, otherwise they would have kept Hartwig last season.

[jahnyc]

The stats are not particularly surprising, except with regard to Butler. I thought the play of the o-line improved after he came back from injury. His stats are interesting, lowest score but a decent yard per run number. If he really did not play well last year, then I do not understand why we should expect that he will play better at right tackle (or why the Bills extended his contract last year).

 

I am glad that the Bills addressed the interior of the o-line, but it is clear that the tackle position will be the next position that will need to be addressed. I do not think that we can reasonably expect Walker and Butler to excel at LT and RT, respectively.

 

I am sure that opposing coaching staffs are drooling over attacking our tackles, our rookies in the intererior of the line and our inexperienced players at tight end. Not a recipe for keeping Trent Edwards healthy.

[SKOOBY]

We lost in the trenches all last season, it translated on the field against 'better' teams.

[Orton's Arm]

Some of the numbers I saw were interesting. Only two Bills' linemen won more than 80% of their battles on running plays, and both those guys are no longer on the team (Peters and Dockery). Most of the guys averaged about five yards at the point of attack, though Langson Walker weighed in at a disappointing 4.1.

 

Then I looked at Nick Mangold, because I'd really wanted the Bills to take him back in 2006. He won over 94% of his battles, and averaged 6.1 yards at the point of attack. Both those stats were better than those of any Bills lineman from last year.

[busterramsey]

Because he is. You are clearly another member of the board who has not seen Hangartner's stats, and clearly hasn't seen the guy play for Carolina. Perhaps you should do both of those before you open your yapper. His stats are as follows:

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/team/roster/Ge...01-345c6818704a

 

Please note that he started 15 games at center for Carolina in 2006. That means, looking at his stats, he has as much, and better experience playing at C than he does at guard. He also played both as a starter in college. Please take note that he has started half of the games he has appeared in and since his rookie season has started 27 out of the 48 games that Carolina has played in the regular season. That is 56.25% of the time. When you start more than half of the games in which you appear, you are starting material. Hangartner is smarter, bigger and much more solid at the pivot than Fowler or Preston ever could hope to be. Please actually watch players play and look at their stats before you decide to be completely negative on a subject you clearly know nothing about.

 

As for Wood and Levitre, both are upgrades over Dockery who wasn't worth the 7mil a year that we were paying him and appeared to be a sieve on running and passing plays. He was partially responsible for at least half of the sacks that people credit to Peters last season. Both of them play with an attitude in the trenches that has been missing for years, particularly now against the big NTs in the division. Again, you clearly didn't watch how Wood handled his job as a center for Louisville, and how superbly he handled his competition. Go take a look at the number of putdowns and pancake blocks he had against his opponents in the past two seasons. Then picture what he can do against Seymour and Jenkins.

 

Start looking at how guys have performed rather than spewing uneducated negativity. I don't mind bashing on a guy if the stats and his play show that he truly does suck. But to say that the line this year across the board is going to be worse, IMO is premature and not statistically accurate.

 

It's amazing how cheerleading fans accept the company line. We are planning (probably) to start 2 OL guys who haven't played a down in the NFL?? Historically very few are successful , even if they are good, which we don't know. I recall drafting a guy by the name of Williams as the 3rd (4th?) pick in the entire draft and he was a dud.. Furthermore Dockery was very mediocre and if we was $100K , he still would be starting.. and don't forget your pom-pom's and continue to cheer for this aimless pathetic team.

[VOR]

The stats are not particularly surprising, except with regard to Butler. I thought the play of the o-line improved after he came back from injury. His stats are interesting, lowest score but a decent yard per run number. If he really did not play well last year, then I do not understand why we should expect that he will play better at right tackle (or why the Bills extended his contract last year).

 

I am glad that the Bills addressed the interior of the o-line, but it is clear that the tackle position will be the next position that will need to be addressed. I do not think that we can reasonably expect Walker and Butler to excel at LT and RT, respectively.

 

I am sure that opposing coaching staffs are drooling over attacking our tackles, our rookies in the intererior of the line and our inexperienced players at tight end. Not a recipe for keeping Trent Edwards healthy.

In 13 starts, Butler gave-up 1 sack and had 3 penalties. And the run game averaged 5.2 YPC behind him. How this qualifies as "terrible" is unknown.

[VOR]

Then I looked at Nick Mangold, because I'd really wanted the Bills to take him back in 2006. He won over 94% of his battles, and averaged 6.1 yards at the point of attack. Both those stats were better than those of any Bills lineman from last year.

I'd like to know what his "metrics" looked like the years prior, when Favre wasn't behind center. While the gist of the article is it's the OL and not the RB, it doesn't factor-in the QB.

[Kelly the Dog]

I'd like to know what his "metrics" looked like the years prior, when Favre wasn't behind center. While the gist of the article is it's the OL and not the RB, it doesn't factor-in the QB.

 

Absolutely. I think a huge reason that the Jets and Thomas Jones and Leon Washington were able to run so effectively was due to Favre, and the defense was scared of him beating them deep. Yes, Mangold is very good and I would love to have him, but the defenses played way back against the Jets and Favre, and way up against the Bills and Edwards.

[PushthePile]

In 13 starts, Butler gave-up 1 sack and had 3 penalties. And the run game averaged 5.2 YPC behind him. How this qualifies as "terrible" is unknown.

I can honestly say that most Sundays I walked away from the Bills game thinking he was the most consistent linemen of the day. I'm really suprised at the number of posters who felt he was terrible last season. I'll stick with my opinion on Butler but it goes to show you o-line anlysis is hardly an exact science.

[Lurker]

pathetic

Trolls who have nothing better to do on a Saturday? I agree...

 

 

I can honestly say that most Sundays I walked away from the Bills game thinking he was the most consistent linemen of the day. I'm really suprised at the number of posters who felt he was terrible last season. I'll stick with my opinion on Butler but it goes to show you o-line anlysis is hardly an exact science.

The main thing I recall about Butler was how well he moved relative to the other "biggest OL in the NFL" guys. He was very good on getting to the second level and sealing off LBs. He may have had problems getting under guys in short yardage, but I thought he was good in pass pro and on sweeps/traps. If he kicks out to RT, he likely be in his more natural comfort zone as well.