Ever Seen a Complete Mismatch of Intellects?

[GG]

BTW, I've gained my "expertise" in morality by reading the dictionary;

 

 

Apparently, you did

[Kelly the Dog]

I can't argue with the above premise, and it's very logical when speaking from a historical perspective. Your point will be well served when looking back 20-30 years. But how do you handle the here and now, knowing that there's been a build up to this point for decades?

 

The bigger issue and the concern for the Bush admin and everyone involved in these activities in 2001 & 2002 is that they had to act to restore the equilibrium. I appreciate the Iraq dig, but it's completely irrelevant to the waterboarding discussions which were happening in 2002 and had nothing to do with the war.

 

It's one thing to say that US should speak softly and carry the big stick, but there should be more thought put in place in criticizing when that big stick is being used. Part of the complacency was that the bad guys got complacent that the big stick wouldn't be used.

 

Of all the hand wringing about water boarding, no one brings up a Page 1 story NYT used shortly in the aftermath of 9/11 about possible use of torture against Islamists to make sure we are protected. I recall the conclusion was that no matter how distasteful, we probably would have to resort to the extreme limits of laws on interrogation. I don't recall a huge outcry over that piece in 2001. Funny how minds change in 7 years, when complacency resets.

To me the outcry over the torture issue is torturous. So many politicians are being idiots about it and using it for political purposes. Wow, big surprise. Listening to most people on either side is painful, and I'd almost rather be waterboarded myself.

 

I do think it's a serious issue, however, and we flat shouldn't do it. We don't allow police officers to break the law to capture people breaking the law, and we are very willing to let lawbreakers and even murderers go to keep that the case. I think it's pretty close to the same thing. Again, however, I think it's hard to define torture, although the Geneva Convention to me is a good reference. I don't know, but it seems to me right now that the Bush Administration rigged the books. That's wrong, too. Although I think we should just ignore it and move on. Say we're agreeing on a definition, even if it includes waterboarding, and then stick to it.

 

I don't think that by itself, the torture issue had anything to do with the war, like you said. I do think, however, that the Guantanamo and Abu Graib controversies were the exact same thing, and while they alone are probably not enough to lose the hearts and minds of many young islamic fundamentalists to be, it's what I mentioned above. They have a laundry list of stuff the "alleged" bad Americans did and still do. And it makes it MUCH, MUCH easier to recruit these little fukkheads when the Al Qaeda guy comes knocking and says they do this and that and this and that and they say they don't torture but they do, they say they don't want to take over the Middle East and force their heathen western ways and government on us but they take over the Middle East and force their heathen western ways and government on us, and they say they are for religious freedom but they spit on our religion in these prisons, etc.

 

It's a cumulative thing. And its easy to see why it works when these kids have nothing.

 

It's really not any different why there are so many drug dealers in inner cities and why ist easy to recruit poor kids for gangs. The kids there have little hope and they don't see a future for themselves and the big bad guys come recruiting, giving them a reason to live and fight and feel important. That's how the islamics prey on their kids, too. We're giving them too many tools.

[RkFast]

To me the outcry over the torture issue is torturous. So many politicians are being idiots about it and using it for political purposes. Wow, big surprise. Listening to most people on either side is painful, and I'd almost rather be waterboarded myself.

 

Annie agrees with you. Sorry

 

http://www.anncoulter.com/

WATCHING MSNBC IS TORTURE

May 6, 2009

 

The media wail about "torture," but are noticeably short on facts.

 

Liberals try to disguise the utter wussification of our interrogation techniques by constantly prattling on about "the banality of evil."

 

Um, no. In this case, it's actually the banality of the banal.

 

Start with the fact that the average Gitmo detainee has gained 20 pounds in captivity. There's even a medical term for it now: "the Gitmo gut." Some prisoners have been heard whispering, "If you think Allah is great, you should try these dinner rolls."

 

In terms of "torture," there was "the attention grasp," which you have seen in every department store you have ever been where a mother was trying to get her misbehaving child's attention. If "the attention grasp" doesn't work, the interrogators issue a stern warning: "Don't make me pull this car over."

 

Farther up the parade of horribles was "walling," which I will not describe except to say Elliot Spitzer paid extra for it.

 

And for the most hardened terrorists, CIA interrogators had "the caterpillar." Evidently, the terrorists have gotten so fat on the food at Guantanamo, now they can't even outrun a caterpillar.

 

Contrary to MSNBC hosts who are afraid of bugs, water and their own shadows, waterboarding was most definitely not a "war crime" for which the Japanese were prosecuted after World War II -- no matter how many times Mrs. Jonathan Turley, professor of cooking at George Washington University, says so.

 

All MSNBC hosts and guests were apparently reading "Little Women" rather than military books as children and therefore can be easily fooled about Japanese war crimes. (MSNBC: The Official Drama Queen Network of the 2012 Olympics.)

 

Given what the Japanese did to prisoners, waterboarding would be a reward for good behavior.

 

It might be: waterboarding PLUS amputating the prisoner's healthy arm, or waterboarding PLUS killing the prisoner. But waterboarding on the order of what we did at Guantanamo would be a reward in a Japanese POW camp.

 

To claim that the Japanese -- architects of the Bataan Death March -- were prosecuted for "waterboarding" would be like saying Ted Bundy was executed for engaging in sexual harassment.

 

What the Japanese did to their POWs made even the Nazis blanch. The Japanese routinely beheaded and bayoneted prisoners; forced prisoners to dig their own graves and then buried them alive; amputated prisoners' healthy arms and legs, one by one, for sport; force-fed prisoners dry rice and then filled their stomachs with water until their bowels exploded; and injected them with chemical weapons in order to observe, time and record their death throes before dumping them in mass graves.

 

While only 4 percent of British and American troops captured by German or Italian forces died in captivity, 27 percent of British and American POWs captured by the Japanese died in captivity. Japanese war crimes were so atrocious that even rape was treated as only a secondary war crime in the Tokyo trial, similar to what happens during an R. Kelly trial.

 

The Japanese "water cure" was to "waterboarding" as practiced at Guantanamo what rape at knifepoint is to calling your secretary "honey."

 

The Japanese version of "waterboarding" was to fill the prisoner's stomach with water until his stomach was distended -- and then pound on his stomach, causing the prisoner to vomit.

 

Or they would jam a stick into the prisoner's nose so he could breathe only through his mouth and then pour water in his mouth so he would choke to death.

 

Or they would "waterboard" the prisoner with saltwater, which would kill him.

 

Meanwhile, the alleged "torture" under the Bush administration consists of things like:

 

-- "failing to respect a Serbian national holiday"; or

 

-- "forgetting to wear plastic gloves while handling a Quran."

 

Finding out who started the tall tale about "waterboarding" being treated as a war crime after World War II would take the talents of a forensic historian, someone like Christina Hoff Sommers.

 

After years of hearing the feminist "fact" that emergency room admissions for women beaten by their husbands soared by 40 percent on Super Bowl Sundays, Sommers traced it back to an unsubstantiated rumination erupting from a feminist rap session.

 

But the lunatic claim was passed around with increasing credibility until it ended up being cited as hard fact in The New York Times, The Boston Globe and on "Good Morning America."

 

One of the earliest entries in the "waterboarding as war crimes" myth must be this October 2006 article in The Washington Post, citing a case raised by Sen. Teddy Kennedy -- and heaven knows Kennedy understands the horrors of a near-drowning:

 

"Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk."

 

Even if that description of what Asano did were true -- and it isn't -- the only relevant word in the entire paragraph is "civilian."

 

Any mistreatment of a civilian is a war crime. So every other part of that paragraph is utterly irrelevant to the treatment of prisoners of war, much less non-uniformed enemy combatants at Guantanamo, who could have been shot on sight under the laws of war.

 

What Americans need to understand is that under liberals' own "laws of war," they will invent apocryphal incidents from history in order to give aid and comfort to America's enemies and to undermine those who kept us safe for the past eight years.

[GG]

To me the outcry over the torture issue is torturous. So many politicians are being idiots about it and using it for political purposes. Wow, big surprise. Listening to most people on either side is painful, and I'd almost rather be waterboarded myself.

 

I do think it's a serious issue, however, and we flat shouldn't do it. We don't allow police officers to break the law to capture people breaking the law, and we are very willing to let lawbreakers and even murderers go to keep that the case. I think it's pretty close to the same thing. Again, however, I think it's hard to define torture, although the Geneva Convention to me is a good reference. I don't know, but it seems to me right now that the Bush Administration rigged the books. That's wrong, too. Although I think we should just ignore it and move on. Say we're agreeing on a definition, even if it includes waterboarding, and then stick to it.

 

Agreed, and that's why it should be a 5 minute discussion for the most ethical Congress and their POTUS to enact a law that outright bans it.

 

Any day now.

 

 

It's really not any different why there are so many drug dealers in inner cities and why ist easy to recruit poor kids for gangs. The kids there have little hope and they don't see a future for themselves and the big bad guys come recruiting, giving them a reason to live and fight and feel important. That's how the islamics prey on their kids, too. We're giving them too many tools.

 

Again, another feel good topic where the solution is blocked by the feel-gooders.

 

The best way to solve the crime in inner cities is a long term effort to increase the economic opportunities. Reforming education in inner cities is step 1. How's that coming along.

 

Far Asia & Mid East had the same standards of living roughly 40-50 years ago. Now it's not even close. As the rest of the world passes Mid East by, resentment is going to grow. You're not going to fix it by not including them in the global growth. But by including them in world growth, you need strong US & western presence & investment.

[Kelly the Dog]

Agreed, and that's why it should be a 5 minute discussion for the most ethical Congress and their POTUS to enact a law that outright bans it.

 

Any day now.

 

 

 

 

Again, another feel good topic where the solution is blocked by the feel-gooders.

 

The best way to solve the crime in inner cities is a long term effort to increase the economic opportunities. Reforming education in inner cities is step 1. How's that coming along.

 

Far Asia & Mid East had the same standards of living roughly 40-50 years ago. Now it's not even close. As the rest of the world passes Mid East by, resentment is going to grow. You're not going to fix it by not including them in the global growth. But by including them in world growth, you need strong US & western presence & investment.

Agreed on all accounts. Presence and investment doesn't really mean invasions and imperialism and buying a bunch of buckets and towels for waterboarding does it? This may not be exactly correct but I just read that in Indonesia in 2002 Americans had a 15% approval rating by the Islamic population. By 2005 it was 38%. Why? Because of the Tsunami. The Americans were seen as being generous. Granted, that is a little simplistic but you're right, they need to have some equality and hope. Bombing doesn't seem to do much for them. I think Obama is taking some good first steps. It ain't going to happen soon though.

[Wacka]

All this for what amounts to a swirly?

 

How about locking up high school bullies for giving swirlys?

[DrFishfinder]

How about Dickie the J and anyone.

[Booster4324]

 

So 3 complete and utter scumbags being waterboarded is a big deal to you? Got it. I can assure you Obama will probably do the same (only with allies to do the torturing) if similar people fall into his grasp. Will you denounce that too? Oh and btw, your comprehension on gun control (as with most things) is extremely simplistic. Why don't you stick to what you are bad at, like trying to determine who killed the latest white girl?

[Steely Dan]

Apparently, you did

 

PUNCH!!

 

You can't tell the difference between exaggerated anger and real anger. Priceless.

 

So 3 complete and utter scumbags being waterboarded is a big deal to you? Got it. I can assure you Obama will probably do the same (only with allies to do the torturing) if similar people fall into his grasp. Will you denounce that too? Oh and btw, your comprehension on gun control (as with most things) is extremely simplistic. Why don't you stick to what you are bad at, like trying to determine who killed the latest white girl?

 

PUNCH!!

 

Wow what an insightful post. One person being water boarded is too many. Tell me how we can tell people of the world that we aspire to a higher moral standing without them doing a spit take at us? Yes, if Obama has others water boarded I'll be pissed at him. My morals don't waver with who's in office.

 

The gun control issue should be in the gun control thread? Are you scared about talking discussing it with others. Since stupid comments are the peak of your cognitive abilities? Also, nice shot about nothing that has anything to do with this discussion.

 

BTW, If you want to exchange shots then why don't you learn how to use the board correctly?

[drnykterstein]

So 3 complete and utter scumbags being waterboarded is a big deal to you? Got it. I can assure you Obama will probably do the same (only with allies to do the torturing) if similar people fall into his grasp. Will you denounce that too?

 

Basically what I see you saying is that the president can break the law if he wants to. Are we not a country governed by the Rule of Law or what?

 

And yes if Obama breaks the law and tortures people I will denounce it also.

[Booster4324]

PUNCH!!

 

You can't tell the difference between exaggerated anger and real anger. Priceless.

 

 

 

PUNCH!!

 

Wow what an insightful post. One person being water boarded is too many. Tell me how we can tell people of the world that we aspire to a higher moral standing without them doing a spit take at us? Yes, if Obama has others water boarded I'll be pissed at him. My morals don't waver with who's in office.

 

The gun control issue should be in the gun control thread? Are you scared about talking discussing it with others. Since stupid comments are the peak of your cognitive abilities? Also, nice shot about nothing that has anything to do with this discussion.

 

BTW, If you want to exchange shots then why don't you learn how to use the board correctly?

 

Very well, you advocated torture to a man. Now you say you are kidding. I will take you at your word.

 

Are you actually suggesting that torture of 1 man who helped killed thousands is worse than execution? Surely execution is justified in this instance. Yet letting him live and getting info out of him by means that are mostly psychological is somehow worse. Is that your stance?

[Booster4324]

Basically what I see you saying is that the president can break the law if he wants to. Are we not a country governed by the Rule of Law or what?

 

And yes if Obama breaks the law and tortures people I will denounce it also.

 

I will hold you to that, I imagine it will happen and with Obama's knowledge.

[Steely Dan]

Very well, you advocated torture to a man. Now you say you are kidding. I will take you at your word.

 

Are you actually suggesting that torture of 1 man who helped killed thousands is worse than execution? Surely execution is justified in this instance. Yet letting him live and getting info out of him by means that are mostly psychological is somehow worse. Is that your stance?

 

 

Yeah, every time I tell someone I'm going to kill them I mean it literally too. If I found out they had actually done that, I'd be against it.

[GG]

Basically what I see you saying is that the president can break the law if he wants to. Are we not a country governed by the Rule of Law or what?

 

And yes if Obama breaks the law and tortures people I will denounce it also.

 

I know we've been through this before, but what the hey? Which law was broken?

[GG]

PUNCH!!

 

You can't tell the difference between exaggerated anger and real anger. Priceless.

 

Nope. All I can see is morality of a weathervane. Which way is the outrage pointing this week, mr dildo?

[drnykterstein]

I know we've been through this before, but what the hey? Which law was broken?

 

UN Convention Against Torture. Signed by the President, and ratified by the senate.

 

Here's a sample..

This convention bans torture under all circumstances and establishes the UN Committee against Torture. In particular, it defines torture, requires states to take effective legal and other measures to prevent torture, declares that no state of emergency, other external threats, nor orders from a superior officer or authority may be invoked to justify torture. It forbids countries to return a refugee to his country if there is reason to believe he/she will be tortured, and requires host countries to consider the human rights record of the person's native country in making this decision.

 

Also, the Geneva Conventions Treaties that we've co-authored, signed and ratified.

[GG]

Agreed on all accounts. Presence and investment doesn't really mean invasions and imperialism and buying a bunch of buckets and towels for waterboarding does it?

 

If these events started single-handedly by the US in 2002 with nothing leading up to them, then surely few people would argue. But, the US' actions were a direct response to an attack.

 

Is the US imperialistic? Yeah. But don't you think you should put US imperialistic nature in proper context that it's the extension of the British empire that's been going on ever since its founding. Just because the USA's sphere of influence extends around the world and not west of the Ohio River doesn't mean much.

 

US has had a heavy presence in Mid East since the '50's. Are you willing to disown the Cold War and the battle for controlling the shipping lanes from USSR? That's what it goes back to. The initial attacks by Islamists on USA's interests are decades old. Way before anyone associated waterboarding with torture than with surfing.

 

This didn't start when some idiot decided it would be funny to build a human pyramid in Abu Ghraib. All those individual incidents are despicable outliers of a huge military force that by and large is doing a pretty good job, especially when put into context of managing a massive cluster-Jauron.

[GG]

UN Convention Against Torture. Signed by the President, and ratified by the senate.

 

Not a law of the US.

 

 

Also, the Geneva Conventions Treaties that we've co-authored, signed and ratified.

 

People who were waterboarded, were not covered by the Geneva conventions.

[drnykterstein]

Not a law of the US.

 

WTF? So are telling yourself we have no law saying we have to abide by treaties? Dude get out of here. Now you are just telling lies.

 

 

 

People who were waterboarded, were not covered by the Geneva conventions.

 

Are you talking about their prisoner status? We've covered that here. That is also covered under Geneva convention. Anyone who's status is unknown defaults to a enemy combatant status until a status is decided.

 

Also I listed TWO treaties. You can't just pick one out, tell a lie about it and pat yourself on the back as job well done.

[The Big Cat]

A chip right off the old block.

 

Snarl sneer and all.