Stupid civilians and their guns

[ExiledInIllinois]

You're a nut. do you really want the UN to regulate gun controll through out the world/ Thats what you're saying?

 

You've said before that you believe that socialism is something we should try, do you still feel that way?

 

 

No. I don't want one entity regulating it. All I am saying is that if one wants control to work, everybody has to be on the same page. Yes I am a nut. If nobody is making guns for public consumption, it would be like going out and trying to buy a tank. Of course, you can always get a tank or make your own. The problem is that guns sell.

 

I am indifferent to whichever way things go.

[Steely Dan]

12,000 guns were traced. Compared to how many guns that are in Mexico?

 

 

I'm not saying the US doesn't contribute, but explain to me why the US is the problem in Mexico, but we're not the problem in Canada?

 

And if we ban guns, do you think Mexicans will simply stop trying to get them?

 

Are you suggesting that the US change its laws simply because Mexico has let its country go to schiit?

 

Just curious what your take is on all of this.

 

Did you read the article;

 

In all, the military has 305,424 confiscated weapons locked in vaults, just a fraction of those used by criminals in Mexico, where an offensive by drug cartels against the military has killed more than 10,750 people since December 2006. But each weapon is a clue to how the cartels are getting arms, and possibly to the traffickers that brought them here.

 

The U.S. has acknowledged that many of the rifles, handguns and ammunition used by the cartels come from its side of the border. Mexican gun laws are strict, especially compared to those in most U.S. border states.

 

The Mexican government has handed over information to U.S. authorities to trace 12,073 weapons seized in 2008 crimes — particularly on guns from large seizures or notorious crimes.

 

They've only handed over information on 12,073 of the guns seized in Mexico in one year. They aren't sending over all of the guns they confiscate because that would be a daunting task for the understaffed Mexican and American governments.

 

So the article I posted is still right. 90% of the weapons sent over from Mexico to be traced came from America.

 

 

So you're saying in the past year, American drug cartels have killed more than 10,000 American people, of which more than 4,000 are police chiefs, mayors, judges and politicians? Gee, you'd think we'd read more about that kind of thing, but I guess it just doesn't make the news here.

 

I have no idea where you're getting that from. I believe that's Mexican police chiefs, judges and politicians, not American

[IDBillzFan]

Did you read the article;

 

In all, the military has 305,424 confiscated weapons locked in vaults, just a fraction of those used by criminals in Mexico, where an offensive by drug cartels against the military has killed more than 10,750 people since December 2006. But each weapon is a clue to how the cartels are getting arms, and possibly to the traffickers that brought them here.

 

The U.S. has acknowledged that many of the rifles, handguns and ammunition used by the cartels come from its side of the border. Mexican gun laws are strict, especially compared to those in most U.S. border states.

 

The Mexican government has handed over information to U.S. authorities to trace 12,073 weapons seized in 2008 crimes — particularly on guns from large seizures or notorious crimes.

 

They've only handed over information on 12,073 of the guns seized in Mexico in one year. They aren't sending over all of the guns they confiscate because that would be a daunting task for the understaffed Mexican and American governments.

 

So the article I posted is still right. 90% of the weapons sent over from Mexico to be traced came from America.

 

 

 

 

I have no idea where you're getting that from. I believe that's Mexican police chiefs, judges and politicians, not American

 

Okay, I'll do this one more time. Slowly. If you are unable to understand the point of my post, or reply to the questions, I'll move along, okay?

 

You posted that 90% of the 12,000 confiscated, traceable guns came from the US. Traceable. With me so far? Okay, assuming you are and you're not just wrapped up in a big number like NINETY PERCENT, then keep going. In response, I pointed out that Mexico has over 300,000 confiscated guns, and that this number is a mere fraction of the number of guns that are in Mexico right now. So you see that less than 11,000 Mexican gang guns of what is clearly hundreds of thousands of guns came from the US. What of the untraceable guns? Where did they come from? Do you know? No, of course you don't. And yet seem you think that less than 1% of the gang guns in Mexico proven to have come from the US is reason enough for the US to change ITS laws?

 

So let's return to my questions so I can understand your position here.

 

(a) If we ban guns in the US, do you think Mexicans will simply stop trying to get them?

 

(b) Should the US change its laws simply because Mexico has let its country go to schiit?

 

Now, when you get done answering those questions. wrap your noggin around this:

 

ExiledinIllinois said that the problems facing Mexico are the same problems facing the US, which is why I responded with my comment "So you're saying in the past year, American drug cartels have killed more than 10,000 American people, of which more than 4,000 are police chiefs, mayors, judges and politicians? Gee, you'd think we'd read more about that kind of thing, but I guess it just doesn't make the news here."

 

If you're really unable to connect the dots, perhaps you should put the pen down.

[ExiledInIllinois]

ExiledinIllinois said that the problems facing Mexico are the same problems facing the US, which is why I responded with my comment "So you're saying in the past year, American drug cartels have killed more than 10,000 American people, of which more than 4,000 are police chiefs, mayors, judges and politicians? Gee, you'd think we'd read more about that kind of thing, but I guess it just doesn't make the news here."

 

 

They are... Just different people getting killed.

 

That is apples and oranges. Of course the circle of violence is filtering down to the lowest common denominator/country... Just as arms have been entering Africa since the slave trade. I just don't get what you are saying (sorry, I am slow)... To me it doesn't matter who is getting killed and some societies are more prone or have a more severe culture of violence. That culture of violence of course is not being abated by what the US or other countries have been doing.

[VABills]

The guns the Mexicans have are obtained illegally through the U.S.. The gun smuggling done for the bad guys there is from the USA. What do you think that means? Since they can't get guns easily in Mexico they have to import them from a country that has laws making it very easy to obtain them.

Way to miss my point. You and EII are a piece of work. At least EII understands that the only way to prevent criminals from having guns is if guns didn't exist worldwide, ever. Since they do and even if all gun manufacturing ceased to exist, criminals would still have guns but the law abiding citizens wouldn't and would be easier targets. At least now criminals in certain places have to think twice before they pull a gun, as the intended victim might have one as well. Well except most major cities in the US, where liberal controls have banned weapons. DC, Detroiit, etc... all have had no guns permitted, yet these cities are always at the top of the murder and gun violence lists every year.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

interesting... so the whole thing is fake?

Did I say it was fake? or I said interesting. One boy with a weapon hidden in his backpack “surprised” 2 armed thugs.

 

 

It was reported that 2 "gunmen" (counting bullets) had separated the boys from the girls and they just happened NOT to notice one person reach for a backpack and produce a gun.

 

BTW .... Who the frak counts bullets during an armed robbery? Talk about dumb crooks.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

FAUX News reports

 

The FAUX fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S. (so let's ignore the possibility that the untraced might be from the US)

 

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

 

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

 

Ummm it's the BLACK MARKET!!!! Geeze. they forgot to register their "illegal" guns sales with the IRS again.

[Steely Dan]

Okay, I'll do this one more time. Slowly. If you are unable to understand the point of my post, or reply to the questions, I'll move along, okay?

 

You posted that 90% of the 12,000 confiscated, traceable guns came from the US. Traceable. With me so far? Okay, assuming you are and you're not just wrapped up in a big number like NINETY PERCENT, then keep going. In response, I pointed out that Mexico has over 300,000 confiscated guns, and that this number is a mere fraction of the number of guns that are in Mexico right now. So you see that less than 11,000 Mexican gang guns of what is clearly hundreds of thousands of guns came from the US. What of the untraceable guns? Where did they come from? Do you know? No, of course you don't. And yet seem you think that less than 1% of the gang guns in Mexico proven to have come from the US is reason enough for the US to change ITS laws?

 

So let's return to my questions so I can understand your position here.

 

(a) If we ban guns in the US, do you think Mexicans will simply stop trying to get them?

 

(b) Should the US change its laws simply because Mexico has let its country go to schiit?

 

Now, when you get done answering those questions. wrap your noggin around this:

 

ExiledinIllinois said that the problems facing Mexico are the same problems facing the US, which is why I responded with my comment "So you're saying in the past year, American drug cartels have killed more than 10,000 American people, of which more than 4,000 are police chiefs, mayors, judges and politicians? Gee, you'd think we'd read more about that kind of thing, but I guess it just doesn't make the news here."

 

If you're really unable to connect the dots, perhaps you should put the pen down.

 

Ok, I'll type slowly because you it's difficult for you to read. The hundreds of thousands of guns weren't confiscated in one year.

 

From your posted article;

 

The seized weapons are kept in the vaults as long as they are needed as evidence, Monsivais said. Most have been there for years, an indication of how slow criminal investigations proceed and how few crimes are ever solved.

Indeed, the ATF gave the AP data showing the average "time to crime" — the time between when a gun was sold and when it was seized in a crime — is 14 years

The Mexican government has handed over information to U.S. authorities to trace 12,073 weapons seized in 2008 crimes — particularly on guns from large seizures or notorious crimes.

 

from my article;

 

Federal agents say about 90 percent of the 12,000 pistols and rifles the Mexican authorities recovered from drug dealers last year and asked to be traced came from dealers in the United States, most of them in Texas and Arizona.

 

Since Congress lifted the ban on assault rifles in 2004, more and more of the weapons recovered in Mexico have been military-style rifles like the AK-47s or the AR-15, the authorities in both countries say.

Some local law enforcement officials argue that the A.T.F., which has about 2,500 special agents watching 78,000 gun dealers nationwide, is overwhelmed.

 

“The gun issue is the single one thing we can address, and we are not seeing it,” said Victor Rodriguez, the chief of police in McAllen, Tex., a border town that has 19 gun dealers.

Although federal agents say licensed dealers are the source of most guns going to Mexico, some come from private sellers at gun shows, where even noncitizens can buy guns. Dozens of shows are held each year across Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.

At a recent show in Pharr, Tex., another border town, a college freshman with a wispy beard arrived with two AR-15 rifles strapped to his body, spidery black guns designed for combat, tricked out with features that soldiers prize: collapsible stocks, pistol grips, extra long magazines.

 

The student, who asked to be identified only as Shane, was asking $1,900 for one of his rifles. As for paper work, he wanted only a handwritten receipt with the buyer’s name and address. He was not worried, he said, about the gun’s falling into the hands of drug cartels in Mexico.

 

____________________________________________

 

Yes, there are other sources of guns but I would put a very high percentage coming from the U.S. since in one year of the traceable guns. We know that out of the 12,073 guns seized and are traceable 10,065.7 came from America in one year. This does not include guns from gun shows, guns with the serial number filed off, guns from shops that have been pressured by gangs and legal shops that don't bother to record their records as per law.

 

Also from my article;

 

Dealers are not obligated to tell the authorities about multiple sales of rifles like the AK-47, as they must do with pistols.

 

In Texas and Arizona, where most of the guns recovered in Mexico come from, there is even less regulation on private sales. Individuals may sell guns at gun shows or even through classified advertisements without running a criminal background check or even recording the buyer’s name. “If you wanted to create a system that is basically legal but designed to facilitate gun trafficking, you couldn’t have a better system than you have here,” said Tom Diaz, a researcher with the Violence Policy Center in Washington.

 

 

Way to miss my point. You and EII are a piece of work. At least EII understands that the only way to prevent criminals from having guns is if guns didn't exist worldwide, ever. Since they do and even if all gun manufacturing ceased to exist, criminals would still have guns but the law abiding citizens wouldn't and would be easier targets. At least now criminals in certain places have to think twice before they pull a gun, as the intended victim might have one as well. Well except most major cities in the US, where liberal controls have banned weapons. DC, Detroiit, etc... all have had no guns permitted, yet these cities are always at the top of the murder and gun violence lists every year.

 

I am not for banning pistols.Just placing stricter laws for them. I'm also saying that strict laws need to be placed on assault weapons. If you need an assault weapon you're probably involved in something illegal, JMO.

[DC Tom]

The FAUX fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S. (so let's ignore the possibility that the untraced might be from the US)

 

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

 

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

 

 

This is the clearest example I've ever seen of how to use statistics to lie.

 

 

And what's really funny is that after demonstrating precisely that, you STILL accept the numbers you're spoon-fed at face value.

[finknottle]

You're a nut. do you really want the UN to regulate gun controll through out the world/ Thats what you're saying?

 

You've said before that you believe that socialism is something we should try, do you still feel that way?

 

I disagree with ExiledinIllinois on most topics, but there is nothing wrong with his assessment about controls. You are upset because the target is guns. Change it to nuclear weapons and you (or most people, anyway) would probably agree.

 

So the argument should not be about his logic, but rather on where one ought to draw the line on universally embargoed products.

[ExiledInIllinois]

FAUX News reports

 

The FAUX fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S. (so let's ignore the possibility that the untraced might be from the US)

 

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

 

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

 

Ummm it's the BLACK MARKET!!!! Geeze. they forgot to register their "illegal" guns sales with the IRS again.

 

What gets me too is this whole "Don't Lie" campaign they wage... I see them on billboards... It is about how one can spend time in jail if they purchase a gun for somebody else legally... But, it really falls on preaching people to "don't lie"...

 

Ya, like somebody is going to say they bought a gun legally for somebody else and face 10 years in prison or whatever...

 

How hard is it to say it was "stolen" and report it stolen? Hence I suppose the whole "don't lie" angle...

 

Effing crazy culture we live in... "Don't lie" <_<

[ExiledInIllinois]

I disagree with ExiledinIllinois on most topics, but there is nothing wrong with his assessment about controls. You are upset because the target is guns. Change it to nuclear weapons and you (or most people, anyway) would probably agree.

 

So the argument should not be about his logic, but rather on where one ought to draw the line on universally embargoed products.

 

 

Bingo! We have a winner.

 

I still contend that my logic has many of the bottom feeders in a tail spin...

 

"Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance." ~Sun Tzu

[erynthered]

Bingo! We have a winner.

 

I still contend that my logic has many of the bottom feeders in a tail spin...

 

"Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance." ~Sun Tzu

 

Theres something hanging from your lip, slurp it up.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Theres something hanging from your lip, slurp it up.

 

Now, now... Let's not get nasty.

 

[Jim in Anchorage]

I disagree with ExiledinIllinois on most topics, but there is nothing wrong with his assessment about controls. You are upset because the target is guns. Change it to nuclear weapons and you (or most people, anyway) would probably agree.

 

So the argument should not be about his logic, but rather on where one ought to draw the line on universally embargoed products.

 

Right. Worked great in North Korea. Anyone who even mentions nuclear weapons[or tanks,or any of the other absolutely ridiculous comparisons] in a gun discussion instantly loses any creditably with me. Who is going to enforce this would wide gun ban? The UN?

[VABills]

Right. Worked great in North Korea. Anyone who even mentions nuclear weapons[or tanks,or any of the other absolutely ridiculous comparisons] in a gun discussion instantly loses any creditably with me. Who is going to enforce this would wide gun ban? The UN?

Obama will raise his magic hand, create another 3 trillion dollars, raise our taxes and it shall be done.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Right. Worked great in North Korea. Anyone who even mentions nuclear weapons[or tanks,or any of the other absolutely ridiculous comparisons] in a gun discussion instantly loses any creditably with me. Who is going to enforce this would wide gun ban? The UN?

 

Playing devils advocate:

 

The manufacturers.

 

Not saying there won't be guns... Just make them harder to get one's hands on them say as with uranium.

[Jim in Anchorage]

Playing devils advocate:

 

The manufacturers.

 

Not saying there won't be guns... Just make them harder to get one's hands on them say as with uranium.

 

I can make a gun in my basement. Enriched uranium is a little harder to cook up. Also are not the drugs these poor Mexican cartels are killing each other over universally illegal? Do you really think someone capable of importing thousands of kilos of cocaine is going to give up guns because of a US law?

[ExiledInIllinois]

I can make a gun in my basement. Enriched uranium is a little harder to cook up. Also are not the drugs these poor Mexican cartels are killing each other over universally illegal? Do you really think someone capable of importing thousands of kilos of cocaine is going to give up guns because of a US law?

 

No. That is not what I am saying. Like finknottle said: universally embargoed products. I am not saying there still wouldn't be the stuff floating around. What's that place in the Hindu Kush mts. where one can have any weapon duplicated/ replicated? I think it is in the Hindu Kush or somewhere near Paki-India?

[Alaska Darin]

No. That is not what I am saying. Like finknottle said: universally embargoed products. I am not saying there still wouldn't be the stuff floating around. What's that place in the Hindu Kush mts. where one can have any weapon duplicated/ replicated? I think it is in the Hindu Kush or somewhere near Paki-India?

Which completely ignores reality. AK-47s are traded as currency throughout the world. Has been that way since their invention and it's not going to stop because liberals want to save the world from itself.

 

If you over-regulate manufacturing in "civilized" countries, manufacturing will simply move underground and criminals will be the only ones who get guns. Guess who wins then?

 

Ideology land exists only in your head. Stick to screwing over the queers.