Tim Tebow

[Flbillsfan#1]

Bandit, any theoretical discussion is open to many possibilities, and we may be talking past each other here. I will say this: Few if any pro teams ever spend a high first round pick on a situational player who will force the team to adapt to him. Most players, indeed, are asked to modify their game in significant ways to match the realities of the NFL. If Tebow were to expect the NFL to change for him rather than vice versa (and to be clear, he has said no such thing, though his fans seem to love to say that on his behalf in a misguided effort to support him), then his appeal to any NFL team will be very limited.

 

He could still be drafted, and still be a success, but I will say that he is unlikely to be successful as an every down QB if he wants to play the same way he has played at FL. I also have a hard time imagining any NFL team being willing to develop a system where they rotate QBs, Pittsburgh in the late 1990s being the exception that proves the rule. If an NFL team spends real money on Tebow as QB, they will expect him to be able to play every down. Otherwise he is just a novelty act, and I cannot believe that either Tim Tebow himself or any NFL GM wants that. Thus, my original point returns, Tebow will have to develop the skills of a pocket passer to complement his other existing skills. (Note I am not saying he has to stop forever being what he has been up to now, lest we get lost in another forest of missed points...) If he can do that, great. If he does not, he is more likely to be Akili Smith than Peyton Manning.

 

You keep talking about "the right role in the right system," and my point has been that there are some systems and roles that have been more successful at the college level than they have ever been in the NFL. Tebow sounds like a great kid, and I understand the affection that Floridians have for him. If he is as smart as people say, then he probably knows this already; I am not sure that many of his acolytes do.

Tebow is as smart as people say he is. The PROOF of that is the fact he STAYED in school for his senior year. He knows he still needs to develop & has ONE MORE YEAR in College to do so. It is just STUPID to try to evaluate Tebow at this point in time. How many on this board say Trent is young & needs time to develop? Well Tebow is YOUNG & HAS time to develop before the draft next year.

[Flbillsfan#1]

Ummm... 64 TDs to 10 INTs (as I stated earlier). Is that a stat line that makes sense for someone who has no ability to be accurate, read defenses, or throw a decent football? Throughout this thread, you have shown you have some sort of irritated and heightened level of dislike for this kid. While I agree there are certainly some areas that may raise flags, to dismiss him as unable to play the position, whatsoever, is patently and blatantly stupid. Look no further than Pat White in this year's draft for a QB who doesn't exactly fit the mold of a NFL QB but still gets drafted relatively high.

 

Against this year's #1 draft pick, Matt Stafford, Tebow went 10 of 13, including 3 TDs and ran for two more in the all-important WIN.

 

And FYI, the biggest knock on Tom Brady was that he sucked -- at least according to the be-all-end-all, NFL scouts. As a QB, you don't stick around until the 6th round unless the prevailing line of thought is that you are a 2nd or 3rd stringer. Scouts rarely take into consideration the intangibles QBs possess; this is why you see guys with all the physical skills get reached for (i.e. Ryan Leaf, Kyle Boller, Josh Freeman) and why QBs who are not 6'5" 230, with spiral-throwing rockets for arms but who possess moxie and who are leaders of men, often slip further than they should (i.e. Drew Brees, Joe Montana, and yes, Tom Brady).

 

It is not an exact science. And if you often find your response being, "Show me one scout who thinks this or that," than you may want to examine the flimsiness of your point, formulate at least a bit of your own opinion, or step back, admitting that you don't have much of a frame of reference.

 

But for some that is too much abstract thinking. And to them, of course, all that matters is what scouts salivate over.

 

Signed,

Brian Bosworth

Ryan Leaf

Andre Ware

Vernon Gholston

Jim Drunkenmiller

Great post, but you can't argue with an IDIOT. Fingon for some reason seems to have a JP like HATRED for Tebow & even though he has probably only seen him on TV a couple times, & saw him throw a few bad passes, he IGNORES all of the posts by various posters that have seen Tebow play much more often than he has that say Tebow is actually an accurate passer.

[thebandit27]

Golly Bandit, you are a good one for misconstruing the points people make, aren't you? There are limited paths to success in the NFL, based on what we have seen that has succeeded thus far. The future may be different, of course. It has a way of doing that. But in the end, there are basic elements of the game that have had significant continuity despite changes in the surface.

 

You want to believe that Tim Tebow will force some NFL team to transform itself, go right ahead. I would say that the stories of Urban Meyer considering modifying the FL offense to help Tebow prepare for the pros would suggest that he agrees with me much more than you. It is a free country, of course, so go ahead and think what you like.

 

Actually RJ, I don't care at all if an NFL team "transforms" itself around Tebow or anyone else. I don't really care about Tebow since I'm neither a Tebow fan or a Florida fan. What I have said, continuously, throughout the entire thread, that somehow continues to be lost on you, is that Tebow has the skills to make an NFL team better immediately. You seem to want to boil that all down to whether or not he is a pocket QB, which is--in my mind--nuts.

 

Let me use your own comment:

 

But in the end, there are basic elements of the game that have had significant continuity despite changes in the surface.

 

Would you qualify scoring touchdowns as one of those basic elements? I sure would. And the fact of the matter is that Tebow scores more touchdowns than any other college player, period.

 

Would you qualify winning big games as one of those basic elements? I sure would. And nobody in college football has won more big games than Tebow.

 

Here's the bottom line on Tebow: throughout the history of the NFL, there has always been room for guys that score touchdowns and win championships, and there's always been room for guys that are great athletes and have tremendous intangibless. There was room for Fran Tarkenton, Steve Young, Mark Brunell, Kordell Stewart (he did go to 2 AFC Championship games), Donovan McNabb, Vince Young, and Pat White. If you think that their coaches didn't change offenses around them, well, I'm not sure there's much point in continuing this dicsussion. There will be room for Tim Tebow.

 

Count on it.

[Ramius]

Great post, but you can't argue with an IDIOT. Fingon for some reason seems to have a JP like HATRED for Tebow & even though he has probably only seen him on TV a couple times, & saw him throw a few bad passes, he IGNORES all of the posts by various posters that have seen Tebow play much more often than he has that say Tebow is actually an accurate passer.

 

Actually only you 2 are arguing that tebag is a good passer.

 

And for the record, good completion % != good passer, especially in college. Completing a lot of passes doesn't all of a sudden mean that one has good mechanics. And as was said before, tebag's passing mechanics are garbage. He will not succeed as an NFL QB.

 

Perhaps i should put every other word in all caps so you understand my post.

[Flbillsfan#1]

Actually only you 2 are arguing that tebag is a good passer.

 

And for the record, good completion % != good passer, especially in college. Completing a lot of passes doesn't all of a sudden mean that one has good mechanics. And as was said before, tebag's passing mechanics are garbage. He will not succeed as an NFL QB.

 

Perhaps i should put every other word in all caps so you understand my post.

Actually if you bother to read other peoples posts in this thread & the Trent thread, a NUMBER of people have said Tebow is a good QB & can throw the ball. But as I said what would you know, being the fan of a GIRLS School.

[Fingon]

Some of you people are ridiculous. I can bring out what actual NFL scouts say about Tebow, and you say I'm an idiot. Please remove Tim Tebow's ball sack from your mouths. The fact is that scouts think Tebow is nowhere close to a good QB prospect, and guess what? It's their opinions that matter, and if they say he won't succeed... well, how many mid round picks develop into good players? Very few do. So, while Tebow does have a chance at success as an NFL QB... it's highly unlikely.

 

 

Like it or not, the opinions of scouts will dictate where he is drafted. If he is drafted earlier than round 5, it won't be to play full time QB.

 

 

So, stop parroting the bull sh-- line "i've seen him play, and i think he is god. SO HE MUST BE!!!1111" The scouts are much better talent evaluators than you are.

[Flbillsfan#1]

Some of you people are ridiculous. I can bring out what actual NFL scouts say about Tebow, and you say I'm an idiot. Please remove Tim Tebow's ball sack from your mouths. The fact is that scouts think Tebow is nowhere close to a good QB prospect, and guess what? It's their opinions that matter, and if they say he won't succeed... well, how many mid round picks develop into good players? Very few do. So, while Tebow does have a chance at success as an NFL QB... it's highly unlikely.

 

 

Like it or not, the opinions of scouts will dictate where he is drafted. If he is drafted earlier than round 5, it won't be to play full time QB.

Well lets see a LINK of what NFL scouts say about Tebow, NAME SOME NAMES. If you don't think Tebow goes before round 5, why are you too CHICKEN to bet that he won't?

[Fingon]

Well lets see a LINK of what NFL scouts say about Tebow, NAME SOME NAMES. If you don't think Tebow goes before round 5, why are you too CHICKEN to bet that he won't?

Well, Todd McShay says "NFL scouts are scared to death of" Tebow's mechanics.

 

 

how about:

 

 

Spectators of Florida's spring practices seem to freeze when Tebow reaches back during spring practice, squinting to detect the slightest difference in an arm that's been evaluated in biomechanics labs and lambasted by pro scouts.

 

Other scouts speak of potential accuracy problems

 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/coll...0,3041309.story

 

So yeah, the scouts ARE very down on Tebow. He has to prove that he can play QB in the NFL.

[thebandit27]

Well, Todd McShay says "NFL scouts are scared to death of" Tebow's mechanics.

 

 

how about:

 

 

Spectators of Florida's spring practices seem to freeze when Tebow reaches back during spring practice, squinting to detect the slightest difference in an arm that's been evaluated in biomechanics labs and lambasted by pro scouts.

 

Other scouts speak of potential accuracy problems

 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/coll...0,3041309.story

 

So yeah, the scouts ARE very down on Tebow. He has to prove that he can play QB in the NFL.

 

Very well then, how about watching the post-draft round table on NFL Network in which Jon Gruden raved about Tebow's NFL potential. The quote I keep remembering is something to the effect of "250 lbs of concrete cyanide". Gruden said he thinks Tebow should be the #1 pick next year.

 

So I guess it comes down to this: who's opinion do you trust? Todd McShay? Jeremy Fowler? Fingon and his minions of scouts?

 

Or how about the opinion of a Superbowl winning head coach that specializes on the offensive side of the ball?

 

I know who I believe.

 

UPDATE: I couldn't find the video, but here's a link to a similar discussion:

 

http://blogs.usatoday.com/thehuddle/2009/0...n-tebow-is.html

[Fingon]

Very well then, how about watching the post-draft round table on NFL Network in which Jon Gruden raved about Tebow's NFL potential. The quote I keep remembering is something to the effect of "250 lbs of concrete cyanide". Gruden said he thinks Tebow should be the #1 pick next year.

 

So I guess it comes down to this: who's opinion do you trust? Todd McShay? Jeremy Fowler? Fingon and his minions of scouts?

 

Or how about the opinion of a Superbowl winning head coach that specializes on the offensive side of the ball?

 

I know who I believe.

So, one person over the consensus of NFL scouts? Gruden doesn't even think he can run a tradition offense, he wants him to be a wildcat QB that also runs the spread offense. I've yet to see someone introduce evidence (by link) of him actually being a good pocket passer prospect.

 

 

Edit: Yes, it has been confirmed that Gruden would only draft him to run his Wildcat/spread offense "experiment". Which confirms my original analysis that he can't be a traditional QB. Thank you for proving my point.

[thebandit27]

So, one person over the consensus of NFL scouts? Gruden doesn't even think he can run a tradition offense, he wants him to be a wildcat QB that also runs the spread offense. I've yet to see someone introduce evidence (by link) of him actually being a good pocket passer prospect.

 

 

Edit: Yes, it has been confirmed that Gruden would only draft him to run his Wildcat/spread offense "experiment". Which confirms my original analysis that he can't be a traditional QB. Thank you for proving my point.

 

Man do you make it easy, Fingon.

 

What consensus? Show me one example of this supposed widely-held "NFL Scout" belief that you want to perpetuate.

 

And don't try to sell me that a writer from the Sun-Sentinel qualifies.

 

Also, "it has been confirmed" by who? You? Please don't make passive statements that have no basis. I sure hope what you meant was "[Respected NFL coach/GM/scout] confirmed that Gruden would only draft him to run his Wildcat/spread offense 'experiment'." Although I doubt that's what you meant, because you didn't provide any type of backup for that.

 

However, I'm still happy to prove you wrong by pointing you back to the link I posted, here's a direct quote from Gruden:

 

"He throws well enough at any level to play quarterback."

 

Yeah, sounds real experimental to me. Maybe next time read the article, don't post unfounded jargon, and don't use age-old I-have-no-sound-logic rhetoric like "thank you for proving my point".

[UpstateSwagger]

Man do you make it easy, Fingon.

 

What consensus? Show me one example of this supposed widely-held "NFL Scout" belief that you want to perpetuate.

 

And don't try to sell me that a writer from the Sun-Sentinel qualifies.

 

Also, "it has been confirmed" by who? You? Please don't make passive statements that have no basis. I sure hope what you meant was "[Respected NFL coach/GM/scout] confirmed that Gruden would only draft him to run his Wildcat/spread offense 'experiment'." Although I doubt that's what you meant, because you didn't provide any type of backup for that.

 

However, I'm still happy to prove you wrong by pointing you back to the link I posted, here's a direct quote from Gruden:

 

"He throws well enough at any level to play quarterback."

 

Yeah, sounds real experimental to me. Maybe next time read the article, don't post unfounded jargon, and don't use age-old I-have-no-sound-logic rhetoric like "thank you for proving my point".

 

Yeah, Fingon's "life is pain" avatar just seems so appropriate.

 

This guy is such a cynical know-it-all he isn't fit to post on any level. Period. That's my scout's analysis on this one. This, also, from another well-respected scout working for... oh... let's see here, umm I forgot, and that doesn't matter anyway:

 

Well, after stellar words per minute numbers, and what seemed to be a complete immunity to carpel-tunnel, Fingon really turned off some scouts at his Pro Day. For starters, he came off a bit abraisive in a few trial threads, and then, some scouts said, after one-on-ones, he may lack some of the abstract thinking and outside-of-the-box rationale it takes to post on the next level. The final straw was his I'm-absolutely-right, no-discussion-needed-here attitude after refusing to take the mandated aptitude evaluation. "It would have been perfect anyway," he stated. "I know everything."

 

Scout's Grade: UDFA

[C.Biscuit97]

Tebow is as smart as people say he is. The PROOF of that is the fact he STAYED in school for his senior year. He knows he still needs to develop & has ONE MORE YEAR in College to do so. It is just STUPID to try to evaluate Tebow at this point in time. How many on this board say Trent is young & needs time to develop? Well Tebow is YOUNG & HAS time to develop before the draft next year.

 

 

I will say this: when you get a man crush on a QB, you will defend them to the end.

 

Now please respond back with I love Trent post.

[Flbillsfan#1]

I will say this: when you get a man crush on a QB, you will defend them to the end.

 

Now please respond back with I love Trent post.

Happy to oblige Pot. We ALL know about your mancrush on Trent & you do a GREAT job defending him.........sincerely; Kettle.

[Cru Jones]

How 'bout a little respect for the intangibles, gentleman. Hell, I have little or no preference here (I think we may have our guy in Trent) but don't compare Tebow to Vince Young, and don't make it sound as though he's Eric Crouch and won a Heisman with 10 TDs and 12 INTs.

 

As for the intangibles:

 

The kid clearly has limitless leadership skills.

 

He is just about everything you could hope for character wise.

 

He seemingly doesn't get hurt.

 

He appears to be a machine as far as training and preparation.

 

His faith is an absolute asset, given how religious the average NFL player is.

 

And for all you knuckleheads, who may have had the SEC run up your asses the last few years, a few facts to set things straight:

 

FACT: Tebow has a career QB rating of over 172.

 

FACT: Tebow's lowest completion percentage for a year is over 64%.

 

FACT: In his two years as a starter, he has thrown for a combined 62 TDs to 10 INTs, against the best defensive competition in the country. Take a look at how many first-round defensive players the SEC turns out every year.

 

FACT: In addition to his very stellar passing numbers, Tebow has a chance to break the SEC RUSHING TD record this year. Yes, that includes Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson.

 

FACT: Tebow has a damn good chance of becoming the most decorated football player in college history.

 

Now, I can understand people being unreceptive to someone like Tebow, and hell, I can understand some of the skepticism with his game, but give me a break with all that "translates to a TE or h-back" bullsh!t. That is myopic and just plain ridiculous.

 

I'm not sure his name on here, although I remember that he has a really stupid avatar of a stick figure poking itself in the eye, said something along the lines of " Have you ever seen him throw a ball? It's terrible. It looks like a coach says 'pull.'"

 

Shut up, stick-figure-guy. That's just stupid. I believe you also said Drew Willy was a better pro-prospect. Get a clue.

 

But, I'll beat you to it: "All the scouts say he sucks." We'll see when draft-time rolls around next year. Who would you rather have leading your huddle?

 

I can understand the criticism, but there have been plenty of QBs, without the off-the-chart measurables, who have been franchise players in this league. INTANGIBLES ladies: Some QBs just have that necessary moxie.

 

At the very least, I think it's silly to write this kid off before his senior year has even begun.

 

 

FACT: He couldn't make a second read to save his life.

 

FACT: He's been coached to run when the first read isn't there since he's been at UF, and it isn't going to change.

 

FACT: He runs when there are open recievers.

 

FACT: Alex Smith has all the intangibles you speak of, he played in the same Urban Meyer offense and put up insane numbers just like TT

 

I believe TT should play on sundays, and believe he can be a factor, but only as a "Slash" player. Otherwise hes a long term project because he needs to learn to play QB between the ears like NFL guys do. I'm not saying hes stupid at all, but there are high school QBs that play in more sophisticated passing offenses and know how to go through thier progressions better than he does. He's an incredible college player; a man amongst boys, and his phisical gifts are the reason he didnt need to and probably won't develop into gifted passer. You cant expect a kid whose played QB one way since he was in JR High to all of the sudden accept that on pass plays: his second, third and fourth option isnt to run. I've heard that Meyer is going to throw in some wrinkles to make him more NFL ready, I dont believe that. Why would a coach for national championship contender put his teams success in jeopardy to make Tebow more NFL ready? As for Tebow, hes not going to jeopardize his, and his teams success for a first round grade and to look good on film, because of those intangibles, and because he is a great team mate, but that isnt getting him into the NFL, it will be his physical ability that does. He should be drafted as a QB, not as the future of a franchise, but to be used in situations where he causes matchup problems(it wont be every play) like pat white will be for the fish.

[Trader]

I live in Fla and it seems like the guy can do nothing wrong. He is home schooled and does missionary work overseas. He reminds me of a much bigger version of Doug Flutie. Say what you want, all the guy does is win. We have not had a passer of merit since Kelly. Tebow has the mental toughness of Kelly. Tebow has the size to do well in the frigid northeast. We could do worse at qb.

 

I love the guy I would draft him if we had the chance with our first pick. I would not care what we needed. I would not even care if he played special teams and was a situational player his entire carrer. Tim Tebow is a leader and a winner.

He has champion written all over him.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

I love the guy I would draft him if we had the chance with our first pick. I would not care what we needed. I would not even care if he played special teams and was a situational player his entire carrer. Tim Tebow is a leader and a winner.

He has champion written all over him.

 

God almighty, thanks for that. Been a while since I had a real good laugh. Tim Tebow has collegiate champion written all over him - but no team is going to draft him with a high first round pick. There are 2 reasons Tebow has been successful at Florida: 1) receiving corps that no team can cover, 2) a dominating offensive line that allows him to run that mid-line option between the tackles. He will have neither luxury to the same extent in the NFL due to the much more competitive nature of the league, and hence will never be as effective. Also, it is Tebow's feet that makes him a real threat, not his arm. He has a solid arm, but nothing to ejaculate over. He burns people on big passes because they have to load up the box to stop the running game/mid-line option and then Tebow scrambles a little bit and chunks it deep. This offense will not work in the NFL, and spread QBs never seem able to play up to standard when they are working in an offense that is not overwhelmingly more talented that every defense it lines up against...

 

All that being said, Tebow still is a better pure QB than Sam Bradford. You mark my words. That guy is going to flop worse than Alex Smith, and I don't care what ESPN thinks about him. He is a spread QB, and there actually is a logical reason why spread QBs always appear so much better than they are, but I won't go into that in this post.

[thebug]

I love the guy I would draft him if we had the chance with our first pick. I would not care what we needed. I would not even care if he played special teams and was a situational player his entire carrer. Tim Tebow is a leader and a winner.

He has champion written all over him.

 

 

Thank god you are not running the Bills. TT is a great college player and may do well in the pros, but not worth our first pick. I like his intensity, his leadership, his toughness, etc etc, but I hope we don't spend a first rounder on this guy. A few rounds later, sure.

[thebandit27]

God almighty, thanks for that. Been a while since I had a real good laugh. Tim Tebow has collegiate champion written all over him - but no team is going to draft him with a high first round pick. There are 2 reasons Tebow has been successful at Florida: 1) receiving corps that no team can cover, 2) a dominating offensive line that allows him to run that mid-line option between the tackles. He will have neither luxury to the same extent in the NFL due to the much more competitive nature of the league, and hence will never be as effective. Also, it is Tebow's feet that makes him a real threat, not his arm. He has a solid arm, but nothing to ejaculate over. He burns people on big passes because they have to load up the box to stop the running game/mid-line option and then Tebow scrambles a little bit and chunks it deep. This offense will not work in the NFL, and spread QBs never seem able to play up to standard when they are working in an offense that is not overwhelmingly more talented that every defense it lines up against...

 

All that being said, Tebow still is a better pure QB than Sam Bradford. You mark my words. That guy is going to flop worse than Alex Smith, and I don't care what ESPN thinks about him. He is a spread QB, and there actually is a logical reason why spread QBs always appear so much better than they are, but I won't go into that in this post.

 

I disagree with you on a couple of things:

 

1) He'll be a top 15 pick at worst. Guys that talented, productive, and successful always are.

2) The receivers at Florida were apparently so good that they've done what exactly in the pros? Last I checked, the likes of Andre Caldwell and Dallas Baker can't even get on the field in the NFL, so apparently Tebow wasn't precisely riding their coat-tails. Percy Harvin? Smells like the next Reggie Bush to me.

3) The offensive line at Florida is apparently so good that they haven't had an offensive linemen drafted in the top 3 rounds in the last 4 years, and that's not likely to change come next April, so apparently NFL scouts are completely lost. You'd think that these outstanding Florida linemen that make Tebow look as good as he does would get noticed going against the likes of Glenn Dorsey, Tyson Jackson, Terrence Cody, Peria Jerry, etc.

4) Tebow doesn't need to have the greatest arm in the universe, he needs to have an NFL arm. It seems like, by your own admssion, you'd agree that he does.

 

Lastly, and this is not a poke at you personally, but I keep seeing people write about the lack of success from spread option QBs. Who are we really talking about here? The spread option is relatively (and I stress the word "relatively") new in its wide-spread use in the college game. So really, your talking about Alex Smith and Vince Young. Although, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, Ben Roethlisberger ran the spread option in college (yes, a similar spread option to the one Urban Meyer runs in Florida, only Ben wasn't quite as fast or run-savvy as Tebow), and made the NFL transition with tremendous success. In light of all that, I think it's too early to be passing off Tebow with a simple "spread QBs never seem able to play up to standard".

[thebandit27]

Thank god you are not running the Bills. TT is a great college player and may do well in the pros, but not worth our first pick. I like his intensity, his leadership, his toughness, etc etc, but I hope we don't spend a first rounder on this guy. A few rounds later, sure.

 

Yeah and while we're at it, how about if Buffalo drafts Sam Bradford in the 7th round?