Chandler#81 Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 No one has, and I think that no one will. I would even go further, and ask for the fun of it if any QB from a college program that ran some kind of pass-wacky spread (Houston, Texas Tech, Hawaii) has succeeded in the NFL.... Of course QBs should have some mobility, but it is interesting to note that in the long run even the most mobile QBs in the NFL have had to be able to stand in the pocket and make the hard throws if they wanted to succeed. This simple historical fact is consistently ignored by commentators and message board posters who keep wanting to proclaim the transformation of the QB. I don't know, 'Not That RJ'. IMO, Upstate Swagger made very good points about essential QB attributes, including accuracy and opposition strength. As for 'pro-style' offense, that line -such as it is- gets more blurred every year as teams try different tactics to catch defenses in an expected set vs. previous trends. I can't say Tebow will or won't make a good NFL QB, and no-one else can either. He's certainly loaded with moxie, he's accurate and possesses a cannon of an arm. Never been an NFL team that shied away from these attributes.
Ramius Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 What would you know? You are used to watching a GIRLS School play football.................& not VERY WELL at that for a number of years now. I have watched MUCH more of Tebow than you I would wager, His passing has IMPROVED every year & he has one more year to go before the Draft. You are saying he is not big enough to play QB in the NFL...........................but he is big enough to be a TE or H-back? That is just CRAZY. Try some reading comprehension. I said that "In the NFL, tebag will not be bigger and faster than almost everyone like he is now." Currently, he runs over and through people, because of his size. In the NFL, if he tries that, there are going to be 250 lb LBs and 280 lb DEs ready to tear his head off. He'll be carted off the field prior to halftime of his first game if he tries to use his college running style in the NFL. As for his passes, they speak for themselves. Often times they wobble and quack and have the trajectory of a WWII mortar. The guy simply has garbage passing mechanics. He can get by with that in college, but there's no way it will ever work in the NFL.
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 I don't know, 'Not That RJ'. IMO, Upstate Swagger made very good points about essential QB attributes, including accuracy and opposition strength. As for 'pro-style' offense, that line -such as it is- gets more blurred every year as teams try different tactics to catch defenses in an expected set vs. previous trends. I can't say Tebow will or won't make a good NFL QB, and no-one else can either. He's certainly loaded with moxie, he's accurate and possesses a cannon of an arm. Never been an NFL team that shied away from these attributes. I won't argue with those comments, '81. Tebow has a lot of skills, but the necessary adjustment to a more stable pro set and the talent level of the NFL will be challenges for him. We will see how well he adjusts. My general point, however, stands, that QBs who come into the NFL whose only experience is in gimmicky spreads have had a very hard time adjusting to the pro game. As long as Tebow is aware of that, he has a year to get ready... I think fans who believe he will simply continue as he has are missing that point.
thebandit27 Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 I won't argue with those comments, '81. Tebow has a lot of skills, but the necessary adjustment to a more stable pro set and the talent level of the NFL will be challenges for him. We will see how well he adjusts. My general point, however, stands, that QBs who come into the NFL whose only experience is in gimmicky spreads have had a very hard time adjusting to the pro game. As long as Tebow is aware of that, he has a year to get ready... I think fans who believe he will simply continue as he has are missing that point. Just as I believe that fans that want to pigeon hole every "there's a place for Tebow to be successful in the NFL" argument into a statement that he'll become a pocket-passer are missing the point. Who ever said that Tebow has to be an every-down, NFL, under-center, pocket-passing QB? Certainly not me. In fact, my point this entire thread has been that Tebow has a unique skill set that only a few coaches would/could handle right off the bat. The idea here is to use the skills he inherently possesses to make your football team better. How would using these skills at the pro level require him to make a more dramatic adjustment than any other player? You said yourself that Tebow has a lot of skills, so why on earth would a team ask him to do anything other than what he's done successfully? I stand by my stance: Put in the right role in the right system, Tebow has just as much of a chance to succeed in the NFL as anyone else.
thebandit27 Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Actually, in my post I thought I explained why I chose 1989, and I also noted specificaly that I was asking about the Florida QBs. I even mentioned Kelly, Kosar, and Testaverde in my post; did you not read past the first sentence? They all succeeded when Miami ran a pro-style offense, and were well-prepared to play in the NFL. Since 1989 with Steve Walsh going high in the first round, I cannot think of a single QB from one of those big FL schools being a success in the NFL. I find that fascinating, considering that those three schools have had such high powered offenses in the past 20 years, and which leads me to wonder whether the systems those teams have run have worked against producing successful pro QBs. I don't need you to tell me that the past does not predict the future. Though I must say that there can be correlations between past perfomance and the present. To respond to your own examples, both Cutler and Brady played in pro-style offenses in college, not in gimmicky spreads, which would actually come closer to proving my own point.... Tebow may indeed be a success in the pros, though I have a hard time believing that any NFL team will retool itself to fit his skill set. He will need to do at least as much retooling. Time will tell. I'm confused...is your point that Tebow plays at Florida, and thus won't do well? Or is it that he plays in the spread option, and thus won't do well? If it's the latter, you should know that Ben Roethlisberger operated out of the spread about 90% of the time at Miami (OH). I covered the MAC in college and every week his rushing/passing merits dominated the column.
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Bandit, any theoretical discussion is open to many possibilities, and we may be talking past each other here. I will say this: Few if any pro teams ever spend a high first round pick on a situational player who will force the team to adapt to him. Most players, indeed, are asked to modify their game in significant ways to match the realities of the NFL. If Tebow were to expect the NFL to change for him rather than vice versa (and to be clear, he has said no such thing, though his fans seem to love to say that on his behalf in a misguided effort to support him), then his appeal to any NFL team will be very limited. He could still be drafted, and still be a success, but I will say that he is unlikely to be successful as an every down QB if he wants to play the same way he has played at FL. I also have a hard time imagining any NFL team being willing to develop a system where they rotate QBs, Pittsburgh in the late 1990s being the exception that proves the rule. If an NFL team spends real money on Tebow as QB, they will expect him to be able to play every down. Otherwise he is just a novelty act, and I cannot believe that either Tim Tebow himself or any NFL GM wants that. Thus, my original point returns, Tebow will have to develop the skills of a pocket passer to complement his other existing skills. (Note I am not saying he has to stop forever being what he has been up to now, lest we get lost in another forest of missed points...) If he can do that, great. If he does not, he is more likely to be Akili Smith than Peyton Manning. You keep talking about "the right role in the right system," and my point has been that there are some systems and roles that have been more successful at the college level than they have ever been in the NFL. Tebow sounds like a great kid, and I understand the affection that Floridians have for him. If he is as smart as people say, then he probably knows this already; I am not sure that many of his acolytes do. Just as I believe that fans that want to pigeon hole every "there's a place for Tebow to be successful in the NFL" argument into a statement that he'll become a pocket-passer are missing the point. Who ever said that Tebow has to be an every-down, NFL, under-center, pocket-passing QB? Certainly not me. In fact, my point this entire thread has been that Tebow has a unique skill set that only a few coaches would/could handle right off the bat. The idea here is to use the skills he inherently possesses to make your football team better. How would using these skills at the pro level require him to make a more dramatic adjustment than any other player? You said yourself that Tebow has a lot of skills, so why on earth would a team ask him to do anything other than what he's done successfully? I stand by my stance: Put in the right role in the right system, Tebow has just as much of a chance to succeed in the NFL as anyone else.
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 I'm confused...is your point that Tebow plays at Florida, and thus won't do well?Or is it that he plays in the spread option, and thus won't do well? If it's the latter, you should know that Ben Roethlisberger operated out of the spread about 90% of the time at Miami (OH). I covered the MAC in college and every week his rushing/passing merits dominated the column. My point is neither. My point was that in the past 20 years, none of the Florida QBs has done well in the NFL, and I do think that the spread offenses common down there, which have led to inflated QB stats and lots of hype, have something to do with that. Ben played in the spread, yes, but he has also learned to stand in the pocket and deliver the ball, which is what it takes to be a successful NFL QB. My point all along has been that any college QB who wants to succeed has to learn how to do that.
thebandit27 Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Bandit, any theoretical discussion is open to many possibilities, and we may be talking past each other here. I will say this: Few if any pro teams ever spend a high first round pick on a situational player who will force the team to adapt to him. Most players, indeed, are asked to modify their game in significant ways to match the realities of the NFL. If Tebow were to expect the NFL to change for him rather than vice versa (and to be clear, he has said no such thing, though his fans seem to love to say that on his behalf in a misguided effort to support him), then his appeal to any NFL team will be very limited. He could still be drafted, and still be a success, but I will say that he is unlikely to be successful as an every down QB if he wants to play the same way he has played at FL. I also have a hard time imagining any NFL team being willing to develop a system where they rotate QBs, Pittsburgh in the late 1990s being the exception that proves the rule. If an NFL team spends real money on Tebow as QB, they will expect him to be able to play every down. Otherwise he is just a novelty act, and I cannot believe that either Tim Tebow himself or any NFL GM wants that. Thus, my original point returns, Tebow will have to develop the skills of a pocket passer to complement his other existing skills. (Note I am not saying he has to stop forever being what he has been up to now, lest we get lost in another forest of missed points...) If he can do that, great. If he does not, he is more likely to be Akili Smith than Peyton Manning. You keep talking about "the right role in the right system," and my point has been that there are some systems and roles that have been more successful at the college level than they have ever been in the NFL. Tebow sounds like a great kid, and I understand the affection that Floridians have for him. If he is as smart as people say, then he probably knows this already; I am not sure that many of his acolytes do. I understand your point, but last time I checked, the only NFL team to run a spread-offense this decade went 16-0.
Fingon Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 I understand your point, but last time I checked, the only NFL team to run a spread-offense this decade went 16-0. Except Tebow has nowhere near the skill of Tom Brady. Brady can actually throw the ball well.
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Except Tebow has nowhere near the skill of Tom Brady. Brady can actually throw the ball well. Nicely put. That spread offense of NE did not rely on Brady to run. It relied on him being able (say it with me, friends!) to stand in the pocket, survey the field, and find the open man....
Peter Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 It is going to be interesting to see whether Urban Meyer uses more of a pro style offense this year to try to help Tebow's chances in the draft. Although I am not a Gator fan at all, Tebow has done exceptionally well on the college level in the offense that Urban Meyer brought to the Gators. How that translates to the NFL, only time will tell. It would not surprise me if Urban Meyer, as a reward for Tebow's staying in college, tinkers with that offense to improve Tebow's chances. I did read that they brought in an NFL QB coach to improve Tebow's mechanics etc.
thebandit27 Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Except Tebow has nowhere near the skill of Tom Brady. Brady can actually throw the ball well. Except that the biggest knock on Brady coming out of college was that he wasn't a good enough passer to play in the NFL, so while it's really easy to say that 10 years later, you sort of have to evaluate now, since time travel isn't an available asset.
thebandit27 Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Nicely put. That spread offense of NE did not rely on Brady to run. It relied on him being able (say it with me, friends!) to stand in the pocket, survey the field, and find the open man.... And since we all know that there's only one path to success in the NFL...
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 And since we all know that there's only one path to success in the NFL... Golly Bandit, you are a good one for misconstruing the points people make, aren't you? There are limited paths to success in the NFL, based on what we have seen that has succeeded thus far. The future may be different, of course. It has a way of doing that. But in the end, there are basic elements of the game that have had significant continuity despite changes in the surface. You want to believe that Tim Tebow will force some NFL team to transform itself, go right ahead. I would say that the stories of Urban Meyer considering modifying the FL offense to help Tebow prepare for the pros would suggest that he agrees with me much more than you. It is a free country, of course, so go ahead and think what you like.
Fingon Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Except that the biggest knock on Brady coming out of college was that he wasn't a good enough passer to play in the NFL, so while it's really easy to say that 10 years later, you sort of have to evaluate now, since time travel isn't an available asset. Actually, the biggest knock on Brady coming out of college was not his ability to throw the ball. It was his arm strength and his extremely bad mobility, in fact Brady ran one of the slowest 40s for a QB... ever. I believe it was a 5.22. All Brady proves is that you need to be accurate, read defenses, and throw a good ball to be a successful NFL QB. Tebow can do none of those.
Thoner7 Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Im sure everyone has seen a lot of Tebow on tv. Everytime I watch, I see him throw perfect fade routes to his WR -- the fade is the hardest pass to throw -- and he puts it on the money every time. Go find a copy of the FL St game this past season when Tebow was extremely accurate with his throws in what was hurricane type weather. People knock his arm, I just dont see it. He is accurate and its more than strong enough for the NFL. He is also a big body like Roethlisburger and has very good pocket awarness. Whether you like his as a QB or not, I dont think you could find one NFL fan that wouldn't want Tebow on their team. I hope he is a late round guy so the Bills take him, he is going to be a great player.
UpstateSwagger Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Actually, the biggest knock on Brady coming out of college was not his ability to throw the ball. It was his arm strength and his extremely bad mobility, in fact Brady ran one of the slowest 40s for a QB... ever. I believe it was a 5.22. All Brady proves is that you need to be accurate, read defenses, and throw a good ball to be a successful NFL QB. Tebow can do none of those. Ummm... 64 TDs to 10 INTs (as I stated earlier). Is that a stat line that makes sense for someone who has no ability to be accurate, read defenses, or throw a decent football? Throughout this thread, you have shown you have some sort of irritated and heightened level of dislike for this kid. While I agree there are certainly some areas that may raise flags, to dismiss him as unable to play the position, whatsoever, is patently and blatantly stupid. Look no further than Pat White in this year's draft for a QB who doesn't exactly fit the mold of a NFL QB but still gets drafted relatively high. Against this year's #1 draft pick, Matt Stafford, Tebow went 10 of 13, including 3 TDs and ran for two more in the all-important WIN. And FYI, the biggest knock on Tom Brady was that he sucked -- at least according to the be-all-end-all, NFL scouts. As a QB, you don't stick around until the 6th round unless the prevailing line of thought is that you are a 2nd or 3rd stringer. Scouts rarely take into consideration the intangibles QBs possess; this is why you see guys with all the physical skills get reached for (i.e. Ryan Leaf, Kyle Boller, Josh Freeman) and why QBs who are not 6'5" 230, with spiral-throwing rockets for arms but who possess moxie and who are leaders of men, often slip further than they should (i.e. Drew Brees, Joe Montana, and yes, Tom Brady). It is not an exact science. And if you often find your response being, "Show me one scout who thinks this or that," than you may want to examine the flimsiness of your point, formulate at least a bit of your own opinion, or step back, admitting that you don't have much of a frame of reference. But for some that is too much abstract thinking. And to them, of course, all that matters is what scouts salivate over. Signed, Brian Bosworth Ryan Leaf Andre Ware Vernon Gholston Jim Drunkenmiller
Fingon Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Ummm... 64 TDs to 10 INTs (as I stated earlier). Is that a stat line that makes sense for someone who has no ability to be accurate, read defenses, or throw a decent football? Throughout this thread, you have shown you have some sort of irritated and heightened level of dislike for this kid. While I agree there are certainly some areas that may raise flags, to dismiss him as unable to play the position, whatsoever, is patently and blatantly stupid. Look no further than Pat White in this year's draft for a QB who doesn't exactly fit the mold of a NFL QB but still gets drafted relatively high. Against this year's #1 draft pick, Matt Stafford, Tebow went 10 of 13, including 3 TDs and ran for two more in the all-important WIN. And FYI, the biggest knock on Tom Brady was that he sucked -- at least according to the be-all-end-all, NFL scouts. As a QB, you don't stick around until the 6th round unless the prevailing line of thought is that you are a 2nd or 3rd stringer. Scouts rarely take into consideration the intangibles QBs possess; this is why you see guys with all the physical skills get reached for (i.e. Ryan Leaf, Kyle Boller, Josh Freeman) and why QBs who are not 6'5" 230, with spiral-throwing rockets for arms but who possess moxie and who are leaders of men, often slip further than they should (i.e. Drew Brees, Joe Montana, and yes, Tom Brady). It is not an exact science. And if you often find your response being, "Show me one scout who thinks this or that," than you may want to examine the flimsiness of your point, formulate at least a bit of your own opinion, or step back, admitting that you don't have much of a frame of reference. But for some that is too much abstract thinking. And to them, of course, all that matters is what scouts salivate over. Signed, Brian Bosworth Ryan Leaf Andre Ware Vernon Gholston Jim Drunkenmiller Are you really this dumb? College numbers mean nothing, and when it comes down to it, Tebow shows that he does not have what it takes to be a good pocket passer. I have explained the reasons previously. Also, scouts did not think Tom Brady sucked, they just realized that if he was forced to be mobile, he would utterly fail. And guess what? Brady succeeded because he has one of the best offensive lines in the league. His horrible mobility does not come into play often. Have you even seen Tebow play? A lot of his passes flutter in the air and are not even spirals, he has extremely bad mechanics, horrid footwork, and plays in an offense that will in no way prepare him for the NFL. None of those points can be debated. However, you seem to think that because the scouts have been wrong, that makes their opinions irrelevant. Say it with me.... Just because a few late round picks every few years become great players DOES NOT mean that pro-scouts are always wrong. In fact, they are more right that wrong. Probably only 1-2% of those selected in the later rounds become pro-bowlers. Furthermore, the only reason that Tebow has insane numbers is because his ability to run makes the defense commit players to be "QB spies", secondly he was playing with probably the best talent in the country at Florida, and the spread offense will always be productive with very good talent. Does the name Jason White ring a bell? How about Cody Hodges? Both those quarterbacks put up insane numbers, and guess what? They did nothing in the NFL because they didn't have the skills to make it. Both those guys were better pocket passers than Tebow. You can say the scouts analysis is wrong, but the fact remains that Tebow is NOT an NFL pocket passer. Pat White was drafted to play WR/Wildcat QB... that is a far cry from being an every down QB. Also, Miami is the only team that runs the wildcat several times a game.
UpstateSwagger Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Are you really this dumb? College numbers mean nothing, and when it comes down to it, Tebow shows that he does not have what it takes to be a good pocket passer. I have explained the reasons previously. Also, scouts did not think Tom Brady sucked, they just realized that if he was forced to be mobile, he would utterly fail. And guess what? Brady succeeded because he has one of the best offensive lines in the league. His horrible mobility does not come into play often. Have you even seen Tebow play? A lot of his passes flutter in the air and are not even spirals, he has extremely bad mechanics, horrid footwork, and plays in an offense that will in no way prepare him for the NFL. None of those points can be debated. However, you seem to think that because the scouts have been wrong, that makes their opinions irrelevant. Say it with me.... Just because a few late round picks every few years become great players DOES NOT mean that pro-scouts are always wrong. In fact, they are more right that wrong. Probably only 1-2% of those selected in the later rounds become pro-bowlers. Furthermore, the only reason that Tebow has insane numbers is because his ability to run makes the defense commit players to be "QB spies", secondly he was playing with probably the best talent in the country at Florida, and the spread offense will always be productive with very good talent. Does the name Jason White ring a bell? How about Cody Hodges? Both those quarterbacks put up insane numbers, and guess what? They did nothing in the NFL because they didn't have the skills to make it. Both those guys were better pocket passers than Tebow. You can say the scouts analysis is wrong, but the fact remains that Tebow is NOT an NFL pocket passer. Once again, would you not acknowledge that there are certain intagibles that are integral for a NFL QB? Say it with me now... Leadership, command of the huddle, respect from teammates, work ethic... These are things that can, also, not be debated. He's a unique talent. Comparisons to anyone else are kind of silly, being that there hasn't been anyone like him.
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