Hazed and Amuzed Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 I think that's a huge problem with this team. Our leaders show good qualities of leaders but not the talent many leaders possess. It makes for a very likable team but likable rarely wins championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 No. Whitner was moved to FS because they were getting atrocious play from Simpson and Scott was a better replacement at SS than anyone else BUT Whitner at FS. It also protected his injury a bit more. I'm glad Whitner has the ability to play FS when called upon. If Byrd shows anything in camp and pre-season, he will start at FS with (a healthy) Whitner moving back to "the position he was drafted for." GO BILLS!!! Agree on all your points. Simpson was a hole they were trying to cover up all season... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbyte Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Look he made plays in college. No one knows what Byrd can do in the pros until the games start. I do not think you will see him start in week 1 baring injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Very very interesting point. What do you base it on? I'm not asking to put you on the spot, I'm actually curious about the X's and O's of this possibility. IMO, I think the reason Whitner "looked so poor" at SS in the eyes of many TSW-er's is because he was forced to cover some of the FS resposibilities as well. Caught in no-man's land a number of times because Simpson just couldn't run well / took bad angles / flat out sucked last year. They should have benched Simpson much sooner, but I suspect they were holding out hope he'd somehow turn the corner and didn't want to ruin his confidence. When it finally became apparent he wasn't the same guy as before his injury, Whitner moved to FS and Scott became a passable SS option (who played the run well but struggled matching up with TEs). Better safety play than when Simpson was in the line up, but still not as good as if you had a better option than Scott on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 After watching the post-TD front office draft players and sign UFA's who never lived up to expectations it's clear that they know fans like something new. It's kinda like the kid who gets a new toy, plays with it for 10 minutes, and demands another. Casual uniformed Bills fans have no idea about the player, but because they're new, it has to be better. Four rookies starting is not good, especially when so many positions will see a new starter. And many of those guys are changing positions. It's not a formula for success and knowledgeable Bills fans know it's not ideal team-building. After all, this is the same front office minus Marv that signed 14 UFA's in 06-07 and only one remains. Heckuva track record. It's ironic that those invested in Marv's rampant success aren't around like they used to be. The Whinter pick was not heralded 3 years ago, and it's only gotten worse. You don't build around the secondary, and there are plenty who have said this. But there are posters who protected Whitner because they thought Marv was nearly infallible. It took 3 years, but the reality is Whitner is not a difference maker and he never will be. You know I agree with every word of this, but a case could be made that they moved in the right direction. The Buffalo Bills actually drafted a DE and 2 OGs in the first 2 rounds of a draft! Numbers like this usually span decades, or close to it. If they keep it up (highly unlikely but we can hope), this will be a good football team, and it probably won't take so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Is is as one poster stated: Solid. I'm not so sure he'll ever be more then that, which is too bad. However, if we build a top 5 defense around him he might excel as a leader on this defense, he has the right qualities to be a leader but not a star. Top 10 draft picks should be difference makers. Not the types who need support. That's why they're usually QB's, OT's, or DE's. Only teams without an idea on how to build draft a safety before fortifying their OL and DL. You know I agree with every word of this, but a case could be made that they moved in the right direction. The Buffalo Bills actually drafted a DE and 2 OGs in the first 2 rounds of a draft! Numbers like this usually span decades, or close to it. If they keep it up (highly unlikely but we can hope), this will be a good football team, and it probably won't take so long. Thing is Bill, it took them spending big bucks on flops like Dockery and wasting a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd to take McCargo. Their failures finally made them admit they had to go OL. I still think the DT position is thin, but OL at least has some hard working young guys. I'm not as worried about the rookie guards as I am about having a fat out of shape RT play the most physically demanding position on the OL. And then converting a guy from RG to RT who hasn't played the position in three years and never at the pro level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLZFAN4LIFE Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Top 10 draft picks should be difference makers. Not the types who need support. That's why they're usually QB's, OT's, or DE's. Only teams without an idea on how to build draft a safety before fortifying their OL and DL. According to most people around here though, it's impossible for an average fan to know better than an NFL front office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Top 10 draft picks should be difference makers. Not the types who need support. That's why they're usually QB's, OT's, or DE's. Only teams without an idea on how to build draft a safety before fortifying their OL and DL. Thing is Bill, it took them spending big bucks on flops like Dockery and wasting a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd to take McCargo. Their failures finally made them admit they had to go OL. I still think the DT position is thin, but OL at least has some hard working young guys. I'm not as worried about the rookie guards as I am about having a fat out of shape RT play the most physically demanding position on the OL. And then converting a guy from RG to RT who hasn't played the position in three years and never at the pro level. Again, everything you say is true. I guess I am just still elated that they at least went in the right direction wrt the draft. If they keep it up, it really shouldn't take long for them to have a team that can compete for a long time. It's a very big if, but it's the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 According to most people around here though, it's impossible for an average fan to know better than an NFL front office. Sometimes I wonder if it's better to be an average fan who watches the games, or a marketing guy who's concerned more with how to hype an underachieving team year after year. The problem with evaluating a GM is that it's not instant analysis type stuff. People realized TD was terrible after that final fateful season. Levy's failures are obvious now that he hasn't been around in two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afcfan1 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Let's see, Donte Whitner: slow, so can't cover (see him burned last year inceoverage?) not a good tackler fairly small mouthy Great pick there, Marv. Lot of money for a back-up safety. I don't know why Bills fans are so excited about Byrd. You can use all of the descriptions above to describe Byrd as well as Whitner. Watching a safety tandem of Top 10 Whitner and Cement-Footed Byrd should be fun to watch from a Bills opponent's perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazed and Amuzed Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I don't know why Bills fans are so excited about Byrd. You can use all of the descriptions above to describe Byrd as well as Whitner. Watching a safety tandem of Top 10 Whitner and Cement-Footed Byrd should be fun to watch from a Bills opponent's perspective. The guy hasn't played 1 NFL down so to make that statement shows a bit of ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Why are you guys making this more difficult than it is? Passing down = Whitner SS Byrd FS Running down = Witner FS Scott SS Everything in between = contingent on the formation- could see Whitner at Nickel CB with Byrd and Scott Behind him, Whitner could be the ONLY safety on some plays, and on others he could be one of three. Seems to me that Byrd gives us the leverage to put the BEST players on the field for THAT situation. Scott's better in coverage than Whitner and better at the run. Donte is playing this year because he was drafted #8. I hope the coaches and FO realize he was a blown pick and move on. Donte is good depth and honestly is worth cutting for his salary. Whitner just isn't good. He's good at the run, crappy in coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 IMO, I think the reason Whitner "looked so poor" at SS in the eyes of many TSW-er's is because he was forced to cover some of the FS resposibilities as well. Caught in no-man's land a number of times because Simpson just couldn't run well / took bad angles / flat out sucked last year. They should have benched Simpson much sooner, but I suspect they were holding out hope he'd somehow turn the corner and didn't want to ruin his confidence. When it finally became apparent he wasn't the same guy as before his injury, Whitner moved to FS and Scott became a passable SS option (who played the run well but struggled matching up with TEs). Better safety play than when Simpson was in the line up, but still not as good as if you had a better option than Scott on the field. When Simpson was on the bench and Whitner was at FS what did we see? Better skills at covering TEs and the stopping the run from Scott, and worse pass coverage from Donte who was exposed. Donte was picked on by OCs all year long. Especially for a run of games where they passed right at him. Watch the Raiders, Dolphins, and Cardinals games. He was completely picked on, worse than Simpson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 perspective. For the life of me, I can't fathom why someone's time is so utterly worthless that they waste it trolling another teams' message board. Then again, I see the two posts above me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 When Simpson was on the bench and Whitner was at FS what did we see? Better skills at covering TEs and the stopping the run from Scott, and worse pass coverage from Donte who was exposed. Donte was picked on by OCs all year long. Especially for a run of games where they passed right at him. Watch the Raiders, Dolphins, and Cardinals games. He was completely picked on, worse than Simpson. Well, if you watch the three games you are talking about, Whitner was at SS the entire game against the Raiders and Cardinals. So we certainly didn't see the better coverage and tackling by Scott in those. Sure saw a LOT of crappy play by Simpson, though. In the 1st Miami game, Ginn caught 7 for 175 while singled up against an ailing McGee. Whitner actually made a couple nice plays to prevent him from scoring on a couple throws. In the second Miami game Ginn was pedestrian at best. Since you ludicrously failed to mention the play of McGee you would have us believe the first Miami game was all on Whitner. And since you like to cherry pick, the TE, Fasano, caught a key TD pass in BOTH Miami games while your whipping boy was playing FS. Were both of Fasano's TDs Scott's fault? Not that simple. Go ahead and blame Whitner for the Johnny Lee Higgins play against Oakland if you want to, but you'd just be demonstrating a misunderstanding of the coverage. Long story short, the SS on that play had DEEP coverage responsibility. That was a quick pass (that came close to being broken up), Simpson took his patented sh*t angle and missed his tackle. And it was a footrace. NO SS IN THE LEAGUE IS GONNA MAKE THAT TACKLE AGAINST HIGGINS RUNNING FULL SPEED! Here's what we DO KNOW: the coaches felt we needed a change at FS. When Whitner replaced Simpson we got SUPERIOR FS play than what we got from Simpson and that resulted in better overall DBackfield play. When Whitner got injured against the Jets and went out we got WORSE play from Simpson again. When Whtiner comes back to FS we get better DBackfiled play again. You tell me if that's coincidence or not. But before you do, please better acquaint yourself with what coverages we were in at what time. Because if you just make blanket statements like your mention of the games you cite above without that context (let alone not realizing Whitner was at SS in 2 of those games), then it's just b.s. for the sake of not liking Whitner. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJBuffalo Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 It wouldn't surprise me to see scott in at LB on passing downs once Byrd gets adjusted. He will still be our SS on short yardage situations and possibly basic packages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 SO it is now 4 years later and people are still whining about the Whitner pick??? Anyways, it will be hilarious when he is a pro bowler this season. I guess he would suddenly be worth the #8 overall pick then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazed and Amuzed Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 SO it is now 4 years later and people are still whining about the Whitner pick??? Anyways, it will be hilarious when he is a pro bowler this season. I guess he would suddenly be worth the #8 overall pick then. It will be hilarious. I hope it happens, on the other hand if it doesn't and he's average again, for the 4th year will it still be hilarious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 It will be hilarious. I hope it happens, on the other hand if it doesn't and he's average again, for the 4th year will it still be hilarious? He's still a very solid player that is talented enough to play several spots in the secondary. He is still very young, has a lot of leadership ablities, never complained when he was starting next to an UDFA at corner and safety in 2007, and seems to enjoy being a Bill. There are a ton of positives about Whitner but people just to focus on all the negative ones becuase of his draft place. It's done and no amount of female dogging will change that. Though almost a full 2 years younger than Bob Sanders at similar points in their career, Whitner has similar stats. Sanders became Defensive MVP after his 4th season. So Whitner may not be amazing, he is still a big positive on this team. Stop dwelling on the past and look towards the future where will have one of the youngest and most talented secondaries in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 This debate will not be resolved by discussion. The reason is that opinion is split almost 50/50 and the principles on both sides of the argument are entrenched. No one is changing any one else's opinion. There is plenty of ammo for both sides. In this respect it's no different than the Edwards debate, the Peters debate, the Poszluzny debate, the Jauron debate or any of the other debates we have here. But by all means, argue away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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