The Big Cat Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Can someone explain what it means for an OL to "gel?" What sort of intrinsic skills and reads require this nebulous gel-time? It seems that knowing your teammates habits and having the capacity for non-verbal communication (two of the things I ASSUME to be part of the "gelling" process) would come after a training camp together, at the very least. Plus this whole "gelling" thing seems like a pretty Girl-Scout concept for a bunch of pros. Can someone shed a little technical light on this subject?
scribo Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 To preface, I have no idea. That said, it would behoove said linemen if they could get to a point where they could know what one another is thinking simply by looking at them. I would presume o-linemen see many different defensive fronts and packages over the course of a season. To really "gel," I think they would need to at least have a good idea of how one another are going to react to different techniques, strategies and abilities before they could approach flawless execution as a unit. What does that mean? Like I said, I have no idea.
The Big Cat Posted May 1, 2009 Author Posted May 1, 2009 To preface, I have no idea. That said, it would behoove said linemen if they could get to a point where they could know what one another is thinking simply by looking at them. I would presume o-linemen see many different defensive fronts and packages over the course of a season. To really "gel," I think they would need to at least have a good idea of how one another are going to react to different techniques, strategies and abilities before they could approach flawless execution as a unit. What does that mean? Like I said, I have no idea. Okay, then followup question: how important is it for an OLman to know what the guy next to him is GOING to do. And is that something which cannot be communicated verbally, cryptically, etc? I played a lot of sports, but never football. I'm skeptical of this whole "gelling" concept, so I really would appreciate as much insider logistical insight as this board can offer!
VABills Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Okay, then followup question: how important is it for an OLman to know what the guy next to him is GOING to do. And is that something which cannot be communicated verbally, cryptically, etc? I played a lot of sports, but never football. I'm skeptical of this whole "gelling" concept, so I really would appreciate as much insider logistical insight as this board can offer! What if there is a zone blitz. you have to be able to read and react. If both guys pick up the same player, it could leave someone on a delayed blitz free. They have to know who is going to peel off in each situation. Something that happens over time, and why coaching is great, it involves a heartbeat to think before you react. When you've been together a while, there isn't thinking it just happens.
The Big Cat Posted May 1, 2009 Author Posted May 1, 2009 What if there is a zone blitz. you have to be able to read and react. If both guys pick up the same player, it could leave someone on a delayed blitz free. They have to know who is going to peel off in each situation. Something that happens over time, and why coaching is great, it involves a heartbeat to think before you react. When you've been together a while, there isn't thinking it just happens. Okay, then basic OL 101 followup question: I assume if it's a run, unless a guy comes out to pull, they're just hitting the first guy in front of them, or at least a body in a pre-determined area. If it's a pass, things get a little more tricky, but you're still blocking someone in somewhat of a designated area. Does an OLman pass block with his head on a swivel, especially if he's doubled up on a defender? Are they all collectively looking for someone else to block? (i.e. the delayed blitzer like you mentioned) The reason I ask, is because the "gel" concept seems to assume zen-like expectations, the OLine moving in a synchronized, non-verbal harmony. And I get the impression that folks around here have been groomed to EXPECT this kind of gelling, as if OLine success if impossible without it.
VABills Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Okay, then basic OL 101 followup question: I assume if it's a run, unless a guy comes out to pull, they're just hitting the first guy in front of them, or at least a body in a pre-determined area. If it's a pass, things get a little more tricky, but you're still blocking someone in somewhat of a designated area. Does an OLman pass block with his head on a swivel, especially if he's doubled up on a defender? Are they all collectively looking for someone else to block? (i.e. the delayed blitzer like you mentioned) The reason I ask, is because the "gel" concept seems to assume zen-like expectations, the OLine moving in a synchronized, non-verbal harmony. And I get the impression that folks around here have been groomed to EXPECT this kind of gelling, as if OLine success if impossible without it. No they do not just hit the first guy. Sometimes you want to open a specific hole, so you have to get leverage to one side or another. Also, the FB plays in as he makes have to seal off as well. Finally as you mention with pulling, you have to know where the other guy pulls to or it's pretty easy to run into each other. You have to set up "lanes" and stay out of the FB, RB, and QB space as well. It really does get quite complex and not as simple as knocking the other guy off. Also, what if the defense is stacking a LB over a shoulder of a Dline? Who blocks who? Again, a lot goes into it.
SuperKillerRobots Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Can someone explain what it means for an OL to "gel?" What sort of intrinsic skills and reads require this nebulous gel-time? It seems that knowing your teammates habits and having the capacity for non-verbal communication (two of the things I ASSUME to be part of the "gelling" process) would come after a training camp together, at the very least. Plus this whole "gelling" thing seems like a pretty Girl-Scout concept for a bunch of pros. Can someone shed a little technical light on this subject? I think by "gel" people mean that the line will be able to work together cohesively. This type of action by a group working closely together is probably pretty common in any group work setting. I can think of a few parallels that might help illustrate my point. Here is one: If anyone has ever worked in a kitchen, as a line cook or even sous-chef, they can probably relate to this idea. When you have multiple people preparing parts of the same thing, everyone has to be on the same page as far as how to get the food prepared, timing so everything comes out hot at the same time, presentation so that each palte looks the same and represents the indented feel set forth by the restuarant, and so each person knows their part in all of it. This allows all the poeplin the kitchen to work together quickly, in a small space, safely, and while decreasing errors. Familiarity breeds anticipation. This is a good anology because of the similarly high-stress and potentially dangerous working environment, as well as the obvious group work. Offensive linemen are trained to protect the QB and open up holes for the RB, but it is not as if they are blocking people standing in the same positions or making the same moves after the snap. It's more of a reactionary position in that you have to stop your guy from getting past you, despite the fact that you may not kno-w where he is going on that play or that you may not even know who it is supposed to be until after the snap. This is why it is so hard to judge individuals and you get so many varying opinions on paticular offensive linemen. As a group you can say one team has the best o-linemen, but it gets tougher to say which one is the best (or maybe a better way to put it would be most indispensible). They are all responsible for the same general duties, and need to make sure that they can function well together as a group. It seems like you are posing the question of why these "professionals" need to know what other people are doing when they could just come in and do their thing (and know it inside and out) and expect that everyone else does as well. The problem with this is that working together and understanding what the people next to you will do is crucial to being able to block effectively. It could be something as simple as where the center is going to take their step so the guard doesn't trip over them or something as complex as how the tackle and guard/center are going to handle a stunt (i.e. will the center tend to puch the DE back or to one side or the other). With adjusting on the fly a necessity, they muct have a certain level of familiarity with each other to succeed.
The Big Cat Posted May 1, 2009 Author Posted May 1, 2009 No they do not just hit the first guy. Sometimes you want to open a specific hole, so you have to get leverage to one side or another. Also, the FB plays in as he makes have to seal off as well. Finally as you mention with pulling, you have to know where the other guy pulls to or it's pretty easy to run into each other. You have to set up "lanes" and stay out of the FB, RB, and QB space as well. It really does get quite complex and not as simple as knocking the other guy off. Also, what if the defense is stacking a LB over a shoulder of a Dline? Who blocks who? Again, a lot goes into it. Okay, thank you for shedding light on to some of the intricacies of OL play. Now, how much of what you just mentioned are basic skills that an OLman should have by the NFL? I know the NFL is a great leap forward, but how much of what you just mentioned, in terms of what a UNIT can do, requires this supposedly prerequisite and arduous gelling process? And how well can an OLine function without it? Are we talking about the fractions of a second it takes for a guy to yell, "#55!" and have someone pick him up, as opposed to the pickup happening organically? Is said organic pickup the goal/byproduct of "gelling?"
The Big Cat Posted May 1, 2009 Author Posted May 1, 2009 I think by "gel" people mean that the line will be able to work together cohesively. This type of action by a group working closely together is probably pretty common in any group work setting. I can think of a few parallels that might help illustrate my point. Here is one: If anyone has ever worked in a kitchen, as a line cook or even sous-chef, they can probably relate to this idea. When you have multiple people preparing parts of the same thing, everyone has to be on the same page as far as how to get the food prepared, timing so everything comes out hot at the same time, presentation so that each palte looks the same and represents the indented feel set forth by the restuarant, and so each person knows their part in all of it. This allows all the poeplin the kitchen to work together quickly, in a small space, safely, and while decreasing errors. Familiarity breeds anticipation. This is a good anology because of the similarly high-stress and potentially dangerous working environment, as well as the obvious group work. Offensive linemen are trained to protect the QB and open up holes for the RB, but it is not as if they are blocking people standing in the same positions or making the same moves after the snap. It's more of a reactionary position in that you have to stop your guy from getting past you, despite the fact that you may not kno-w where he is going on that play or that you may not even know who it is supposed to be until after the snap. This is why it is so hard to judge individuals and you get so many varying opinions on paticular offensive linemen. As a group you can say one team has the best o-linemen, but it gets tougher to say which one is the best (or maybe a better way to put it would be most indispensible). They are all responsible for the same general duties, and need to make sure that they can function well together as a group. It seems like you are posing the question of why these "professionals" need to know what other people are doing when they could just come in and do their thing (and know it inside and out) and expect that everyone else does as well. The problem with this is that working together and understanding what the people next to you will do is crucial to being able to block effectively. It could be something as simple as where the center is going to take their step so the guard doesn't trip over them or something as complex as how the tackle and guard/center are going to handle a stunt (i.e. will the center tend to puch the DE back or to one side or the other). With adjusting on the fly a necessity, they muct have a certain level of familiarity with each other to succeed. Nice. Thank you! I'm still skeptical that all these intangible "gelling" elements can't be learned through OTA's, walkthroughs, and training camp. Still seems like "basic" stuff in the grand scheme of things.
VABills Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Okay, thank you for shedding light on to some of the intricacies of OL play. Now, how much of what you just mentioned are basic skills that an OLman should have by the NFL? I know the NFL is a great leap forward, but how much of what you just mentioned, in terms of what a UNIT can do, requires this supposedly prerequisite and arduous gelling process? And how well can an OLine function without it? Are we talking about the fractions of a second it takes for a guy to yell, "#55!" and have someone pick him up, as opposed to the pickup happening organically? Is said organic pickup the goal/byproduct of "gelling?" What you said at the end. I never played at the pro level so I honestly can't tell you from first hand experience how good they are.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 I don't pretend to understand offensive line play. Like many fans I try to pay attention to it but it's pretty easy to be "distracted" by the skill positions and the actual location of the ball. I tried to find (unsuccessfully) an article I read about the Steelers line in crisis last year around late October and how the O-linemen took it upon themselves to eat, drink, breath, sleep and talk football for every second available to them and how they credited this commitment with turning around their play. It may be hard (I have no first hand knowledge) to understand the extent to which this unit needs to be in synch. I've played on sports teams before and in workplaces but I don't know if any of this even remotely approaches the commitment needed to succeed in professional sports where the "win at all costs" mentality pervades virtually every single opponent you play against. It seems like these guys have to work lots of voluntary overtime just to stay on par with their opponents (remember Donte Whitner's regular DB meetings during the season). Offensive line play is as simple as John Madden makes it sound and is also probably very difficult to master as a unit. Like they say about Texas Hold'em, "it takes five minutes to learn and a lifetime to master." Here's the very excellent Wikipedia entry on Zone Blocking schemes. Some teams use Zone blocking, others Man blocking, and most teams use a combination of both. It's a fascinating read and I hope many of you will check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_blocking
billybob Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Ever play basketball? - If you run with the same guys all the time- you can often beat better players who don't run together - because you know where you teammates want the ball, where to set picks, who needs help on defense, where to go for rebounds on your teammates shots, and so on- never played on the OL but I would imagine it's the same sort of thing there.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 gel, set, solify, congeal, coalesce aka solidify as a whole
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Ever play basketball? - If you run with the same guys all the time- you can often beat better players who don't run together - because you know where you teammates want the ball, where to set picks, who needs help on defense, where to go for rebounds on your teammates shots, and so on- never played on the OL but I would imagine it's the same sort of thing there. Agree to an extent. I played ice hockey for many years. Hockey and basketball are free-flow games. Football is not. I don't disagree with your point and I think that's why this is such an interesting discussion. I would say that besides the differences in the sports, it might come down to this: It's a matter of degree.
The Big Cat Posted May 1, 2009 Author Posted May 1, 2009 Agree to an extent. I played ice hockey for many years. Hockey and basketball are free-flow games. Football is not. I don't disagree with your point and I think that's why this is such an interesting discussion. I would say that besides the differences in the sports, it might come down to this: It's a matter of degree. Yeah, I wasn't thrilled with his analogy either. No offense William Robert. Mainly because you can fail in a free-flow game and then have the opportunity to make up for it seconds later. Seems to me that "failures" on the offensive line are brutally costly. Having said that, just read Guahgagan's blurb about our new interior being "super smart:" how much of this 'gelling' nonsense falls to the three guys inside, and how much will those meaty brains expedite the "process?"
Magox Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Nice. Thank you! I'm still skeptical that all these intangible "gelling" elements can't be learned through OTA's, walkthroughs, and training camp. Still seems like "basic" stuff in the grand scheme of things. practice doesn't make perfect
The Big Cat Posted May 1, 2009 Author Posted May 1, 2009 practice doesn't make perfect You're right. Perfect practice makes perfect. That's why I'm so glad to have the infallible Dick Jauron at the helm.
flmike Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 The advantage of smart interior linemen is that they can change variations of a blocking scheme on the spot. When the center calls out the change, smart guys can quickly retrieve the new assignment AND remember where everyone else will be. Add to that a change in snap count, well... being quick witted helps. Offsides often occurs when the center or QB makes a change and the OT or OE doesn't hear it or remembers incorrectly. Mike
bobgonzo Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 My guys need time to"Gel" = Coaches speak for My Guys S__k at this point in the season With a revamped Off. line I hope this not what you hear midway through the season. They have from now till Sep. to "Gel" ( Jello in M. Williams case") They need to be playing at least a half of every preseason game maybe more, or this is what you'll hear.
billybob Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 This what I really know about Gelling- If the Bills are starting a bunch of people who have never played together or are playing new positions Bills fans will say that gelling is coach speak hogwash- if the Bills suck in 2009, Bills fans will say we'll get them in 2010 when our OL gells- yes it's all about the gelling everybody knows that.
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