Looks like the Patriots found themselves a diamond in

[dave mcbride]

Two out of their last three drafts before this year's (2006 and 2007) have stunk, actually, and that was with Dimitroff (now Falcons GM) and/or Pioli (ditto, KC). Last year's class had Mayo, a 2nd round CB most pundits thought was a 4th round reach (Wheatley), a 3rd round LB (Crable) who didn't play a down (even before going on IR mid-season) and who now sounds like he's in Belicheat's doghouse, a 3rd QB (O'Connell) who didn't play a meaningful down (not a big surprise for a QB ), but who many also thought was a reach last year, a 4th round CB (Wilhite)that some thought was better than the 2nd rounder, but who also didn't do much before getting injured IIRC, a 5th rounder (Slater) who all I remember about him is fumbling on a kickoff return last year and a 6th rounder they cut this week (Ruud). Outside Mayo (who I also think is a bit overrated, but is a good player), I ain't exactly shaking in my boots.....

Where is Welker and Moss on that list? I don't buy your argument about Moss either - sure, he wanted to go there, but he wanted to go there because the Pats are a team that makes people want to go there. So give them some credit.

 

As for them going down, how come their regular season record since the whole spygate episode has been 26-5 (I'm not including the season opener vs. the Jets in 07)? I think they would have gone to the Super Bowl last year too if they had made the playoffs. I certainly wouldn't have bet against them.

[dubs]

Where is Welker and Moss on that list? I don't buy your argument about Moss either - sure, he wanted to go there, but he wanted to go there because the Pats are a team that makes people want to go there. So give them some credit.

 

As for them going down, how come their regular season record since the whole spygate episode has been 26-5 (I'm not including the season opener vs. the Jets in 07)? I think they would have gone to the Super Bowl last year too if they had made the playoffs. I certainly wouldn't have bet against them.

 

 

They are not on there because the Pats didn't draft them. If the argument is that the Pats are great at drafting players or 'diamonds in the rough', like Chung, then Moss and Welker are irrelevant. The Pats have had some great picks, no doubt, but in the last few years especially, they haven't fared too well, other than Mayo. The Patriots have been the most successful team of the 00s, that's hard to debate. I don't think the reason is that they are great in the draft. They got EXTREMELY fortunate with Tom Brady (which you have to give them credit for) and the rest is average to below-average.

[MattM]

Where is Welker and Moss on that list? I don't buy your argument about Moss either - sure, he wanted to go there, but he wanted to go there because the Pats are a team that makes people want to go there. So give them some credit.

 

As for them going down, how come their regular season record since the whole spygate episode has been 26-5 (I'm not including the season opener vs. the Jets in 07)? I think they would have gone to the Super Bowl last year too if they had made the playoffs. I certainly wouldn't have bet against them.

 

Listening to their fans (are you one in disguise?) you'd think they were undefeated since 2000 and walk on water to boot. I've never met a more arrogant bunch. Funny how the Stillers have won two since the Pats* won their last Lombardi, but you never hear their fans crow about how they're basically unbeatable. I honestly wonder why that is, now that I mention it--must be something in the Boston bandwagon water.

 

As Easterbrook pointed out, people wanted to go to New England for a chance at a ring and cheating helped them with that chance and therefore unlevelled the playing field. How much of their winning was accomplished via smoke and mirrors (and videotape and beyond, since it's well documented that they're suspected of more than just Spygate) I suspect we'll never know for sure. On my last parenthetical point, check out a great article in the NYT from May of last year in which several members of the NFL Competition Committee basically came out and said that most of the complaints they got each week regarding teams being unethical or suspected of cheating were about New England.....

[dave mcbride]

Listening to their fans (are you one in disguise?) you'd think they were undefeated since 2000 and walk on water to boot. I've never met a more arrogant bunch. Funny how the Stillers have won two since the Pats* won their last Lombardi, but you never hear their fans crow about how they're basically unbeatable. I honestly wonder why that is, now that I mention it--must be something in the Boston bandwagon water.

 

As Easterbrook pointed out, people wanted to go to New England for a chance at a ring and cheating helped them with that chance and therefore unlevelled the playing field. How much of their winning was accomplished via smoke and mirrors (and videotape and beyond, since it's well documented that they're suspected of more than just Spygate) I suspect we'll never know for sure. On my last parenthetical point, check out a great article in the NYT from May of last year in which several members of the NFL Competition Committee basically came out and said that most of the complaints they got each week regarding teams being unethical or suspected of cheating were about New England.....

I can't stand the Pats, but I respect them (and especially their coach) and honestly think the Spygate stuff is overblown. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of teams pulled that stuff, and I think the Raiders/Cowboys in the 70s probably did worse.

 

As for the Steelers, I doubt Browns fans would agree with you.

 

No offense, but you didn't address the content of the post.

[MattM]

I can't stand the Pats, but I respect them (and especially their coach) and honestly think the Spygate stuff is overblown. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of teams pulled that stuff, and I think the Raiders/Cowboys in the 70s probably did worse.

 

As for the Steelers, I doubt Browns fans would agree with you.

 

No offense, but you didn't address the content of the post.

 

Past performance is no guarantee of future returns, as they say in my business. An aging team generally (although that's nothing that some old HGH can't cure, just ask Rodney), an unproven secondary (they're only proven players there are old guys), an O-line that got exposed in the SB, a QB who may or may not come back all the way, running backs on the wrong side of 30 (HGH might help these guys, too) except Maroney the bust, linebackers slow as dirt, for some starters. Don't get me wrong--I don't think they're going 1-15, I just don't think they're the elite team they were or that their fans think they are.

 

As for your question on the draft--I did answer that and I don't think you ever answered me. As noted above, Welker and Moss don't count, as they weren't drafted by the Pats, but were ID-ed long after their playing careers started. I do give the Pats* credit for giving up a 2 for Welker and recognizing his talent, but again, that was after he'd played 2-3 years in the League.

 

As for Spygate being overblown, I believe the contrary--they push the envelope far more than anyone else and were not caught for most of what they do.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/f...2007&st=cse

 

"The N.F.L. team executive said the Patriots were the subject of most of the accusations discussed in the rules committee’s deliberations. The team’s recent success and tight-lipped approach, as personified by Belichick, has played a role.

 

“They were the only team, really,” the executive said. “Clearly, they were the team mentioned far more than anybody else.”

 

or

 

"The committee heard accusations that the Patriots had taped opposing coaches’ signals, placed microphones on defensive players to steal quarterbacks’ audible signals and manipulated clocks and coach-to-quarterback radio systems."

 

Tip of the iceberg, my man, tip of the iceberg--why, just look at all of the suspicious calls in their games over the years, just in their games against us alone, not to mention things like the Tuck Rule or the AFCCG vs. the Colts.....

[afcfan1]

Havent the Patriots had very mediocre drafts the last several years?

 

http://www.fftoday.com/nfl/drafttracker.ph...amp;TeamID=9003

 

 

I wouldn't say that at all. Last year for example, Mayo, Wheatley (before he got hurt), Wilhite, and Crable (before he got hurt) all were making contributions. The Patriots drafts are always solid, but they are very deep and just don't have as many holes to fill as most teams, so a lot of the bottom tier rookies don't have much of a shot of making their roster. They just stick them on the practice squad for insurance to injuries.

[dave mcbride]

Past performance is no guarantee of future returns, as they say in my business. An aging team generally (although that's nothing that some old HGH can't cure, just ask Rodney), an unproven secondary (they're only proven players there are old guys), an O-line that got exposed in the SB, a QB who may or may not come back all the way, running backs on the wrong side of 30 (HGH might help these guys, too) except Maroney the bust, linebackers slow as dirt, for some starters. Don't get me wrong--I don't think they're going 1-15, I just don't think they're the elite team they were or that their fans think they are.

 

As for your question on the draft--I did answer that and I don't think you ever answered me. As noted above, Welker and Moss don't count, as they weren't drafted by the Pats, but were ID-ed long after their playing careers started. I do give the Pats* credit for giving up a 2 for Welker and recognizing his talent, but again, that was after he'd played 2-3 years in the League.

 

As for Spygate being overblown, I believe the contrary--they push the envelope far more than anyone else and were not caught for most of what they do.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/f...2007&st=cse

 

"The N.F.L. team executive said the Patriots were the subject of most of the accusations discussed in the rules committee’s deliberations. The team’s recent success and tight-lipped approach, as personified by Belichick, has played a role.

 

“They were the only team, really,” the executive said. “Clearly, they were the team mentioned far more than anybody else.”

 

or

 

"The committee heard accusations that the Patriots had taped opposing coaches’ signals, placed microphones on defensive players to steal quarterbacks’ audible signals and manipulated clocks and coach-to-quarterback radio systems."

 

Tip of the iceberg, my man, tip of the iceberg--why, just look at all of the suspicious calls in their games over the years, just in their games against us alone, not to mention things like the Tuck Rule or the AFCCG vs. the Colts.....

 

Seems to me the best player on the Bills d-line last year had a steroid suspension, so I don't know if we should be casting stones at the Pats re: that issue. Now we're hearing that Starcaps were passed around like candy in the Bills locker room in the early 2000s. Read into that what you will.

 

The Colts pull that stuff too, if rumors are to be believed. Virtually all teams will do something borderline to get ahead if they think they can get away with it. Just think of Shanahan's blocking schemes, which showed no remorse about going after defenders' legs to the point of injuring them. It worked.

[Kelly the Dog]

I wouldn't say that at all. Last year for example, Mayo, Wheatley (before he got hurt), Wilhite, and Crable (before he got hurt) all were making contributions. The Patriots drafts are always solid, but they are very deep and just don't have as many holes to fill as most teams, so a lot of the bottom tier rookies don't have much of a shot of making their roster. They just stick them on the practice squad for insurance to injuries.

 

I suppose if you count a guy who has two tackles and two pass defensed in six games, and another guy who makes no tackles or assists in eight games "making contributions", then I guess you would think they had great drafts.

[afcfan1]

Past performance is no guarantee of future returns, as they say in my business. An aging team generally (although that's nothing that some old HGH can't cure, just ask Rodney), an unproven secondary (they're only proven players there are old guys), an O-line that got exposed in the SB, a QB who may or may not come back all the way, running backs on the wrong side of 30 (HGH might help these guys, too) except Maroney the bust, linebackers slow as dirt, for some starters. Don't get me wrong--I don't think they're going 1-15, I just don't think they're the elite team they were or that their fans think they are.

 

As for your question on the draft--I did answer that and I don't think you ever answered me. As noted above, Welker and Moss don't count, as they weren't drafted by the Pats, but were ID-ed long after their playing careers started. I do give the Pats* credit for giving up a 2 for Welker and recognizing his talent, but again, that was after he'd played 2-3 years in the League.

 

As for Spygate being overblown, I believe the contrary--they push the envelope far more than anyone else and were not caught for most of what they do.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/f...2007&st=cse

 

"The N.F.L. team executive said the Patriots were the subject of most of the accusations discussed in the rules committee’s deliberations. The team’s recent success and tight-lipped approach, as personified by Belichick, has played a role.

 

“They were the only team, really,” the executive said. “Clearly, they were the team mentioned far more than anybody else.”

 

or

 

"The committee heard accusations that the Patriots had taped opposing coaches’ signals, placed microphones on defensive players to steal quarterbacks’ audible signals and manipulated clocks and coach-to-quarterback radio systems."

 

Tip of the iceberg, my man, tip of the iceberg--why, just look at all of the suspicious calls in their games over the years, just in their games against us alone, not to mention things like the Tuck Rule or the AFCCG vs. the Colts.....

 

Slow LBs???? Guyton was the fastest LB at the combine last year and Mayo was 2nd. A Thomas is extremely fast. Aging team??? Brusci, Springs and Taylor are the only real regulars one would consider old for their positions, and they are not going to be expected to be every down guys anymore. As for RB and Maroney being a bust... They realize that RB is one of the most overrated positions in the NFL. You do not need an absolute stud at that position to win games. Didn't some guy from the Patriots with like 20 names run for over 100 against the Bills last year. As long as the Hoodie is there, they are going to be the favorites in the AFC East.

[afcfan1]

I suppose if you count a guy who has two tackles and two pass defensed in six games, and another guy who makes no tackles or assists in eight games "making contributions", then I guess you would think they had great drafts.

 

The point is they draft for depth. If you have a large number of rookies making contributions in a given year, it most likely means you have a sorry team. And yes, I would call any draft that nets you the Rookie of the Year a great draft.

[Kelly the Dog]

The point is they draft for depth. If you have a large number of rookies making contributions in a given year, it most likely means you have a sorry team. And yes, I would call any draft that nets you the Rookie of the Year a great draft.

 

Just because they have a good team where it's difficult to break into the line-up doesn't mean you have a great draft either just because you draft back-ups. Pretty much every team drafts the first two rounds as starters and anyone after that a project or bonus. The other guys didnt seem to produce, they weren't real surprises. Mayo was obviously a great pick. Frankly, I would have taken the Bills drafts over the Pats drafts the last two years previous and this one, too (although that is based on the fact I think Hardy will become a good player).

[afcfan1]

Just because they have a good team where it's difficult to break into the line-up doesn't mean you have a great draft either just because you draft back-ups. Pretty much every team drafts the first two rounds as starters and anyone after that a project or bonus. The other guys didnt seem to produce, they weren't real surprises. Mayo was obviously a great pick. Frankly, I would have taken the Bills drafts over the Pats drafts the last two years previous and this one, too (although that is based on the fact I think Hardy will become a good player).

 

 

You'd be in a very small minority.

[MattM]

The point is they draft for depth. If you have a large number of rookies making contributions in a given year, it most likely means you have a sorry team. And yes, I would call any draft that nets you the Rookie of the Year a great draft.

 

 

Go back up a bit and look at the 2006 and 2007 drafts (which contain a decent number of folks either not longer playing for the Pats* or not even in the League any more) and tell me they had good drafts with a straight face. The facts don't bear that out.....

[eball]

What I find more notable is that Patrick Chung is the second Chung the Pats have drafted. Do they own the franchise on Chinese American players?

His full name is Patrick Chungstein. He's not really Chinese.

[MattM]

You'd be in a very small minority.

 

Actually, to any objective fans, I doubt it. Mayo's the only decent player you've picked in the last three years of drafting.....

[afcfan1]

Go back up a bit and look at the 2006 and 2007 drafts (which contain a decent number of folks not even in the League any more) and tell me they had good drafts with a straight face. The facts don't bear that out.....

 

 

Do you mean the 07 draft where they got Welker for a 2nd and Moss for a 4th? Yes, I can say with a straight face that worked out pretty well for them.

[MattM]

Seems to me the best player on the Bills d-line last year had a steroid suspension, so I don't know if we should be casting stones at the Pats re: that issue. Now we're hearing that Starcaps were passed around like candy in the Bills locker room in the early 2000s. Read into that what you will.

 

The Colts pull that stuff too, if rumors are to be believed. Virtually all teams will do something borderline to get ahead if they think they can get away with it. Just think of Shanahan's blocking schemes, which showed no remorse about going after defenders' legs to the point of injuring them. It worked.

 

You sure you're not a Pats* fan? That anti-Colts riff gives you away every time--the Pats* are about the only folks on earth who seem to have something against Dungy.

 

That Starcaps stuff is garbage--from what I've read even if it was drunk in the Bills locker room all of the occurred in 2002 before the problem ingredient in Starcaps was banned.

 

You didn't really respond to that NYT article (which contained actual quotes from actual NFL execs) too well, did you? Let's see some links, for ex., to those "rumors" about the Colts or about how "virtually all teams cheat".....

[MattM]

Do you mean the 07 draft where they got Welker for a 2nd and Moss for a 4th? Yes, I can say with a straight face that worked out pretty well for them.

 

 

Yeah, they "drafted" those guys, didn't they? Please read above before posting, moron.....

[San Jose Bills Fan]

His full name is Patrick Chungstein. He's not really Chinese.

 

Nice try. From Wikipedia:

 

Patrick Christopher Chung (born August 19, 1987 in Kingston, Jamaica) is an American football safety for the New England Patriots of the National Football League. He was drafted by the Patriots in the second round of the 2009 NFL Draft. He played college football at Oregon. Chung is of Chinese Jamaican descent, his father being half-Chinese, half-Jamaican and mother Jamaican.. He has four brothers and three sisters, and was a political science major at Oregon. Chung went to Rancho Cucamonga High School.

 

Chung's mother, Sophie George-Chung, was a top Jamaican reggae artist in the 1980s. Her song, "Girlie Girlie," released in 1985, was a No. 1 hit in Jamaica and made it into the Top 10 in the United Kingdom.

 

BTW, the other Chung, Eugene Chung the VATech OT the Patriots drafted 13th overall in the 1992 Draft was Korean-American. He wasn't very good, staying in the league for five years, long enough to be given the nickname (and he was the original I believe) "The Human Turnstile."

[afcfan1]

Yeah, they "drafted" those guys, didn't they? Please read above before posting, moron.....

 

You're right dude. The Bills Front Office and Talent Evaluators blow the Pats away (if you can say that with a straight face, you're an idiot). That is why Buffalo is such a talented football team. Just because the Bills draft guys that make their starting lineup doesn't mean thy have great drafts, it means the Bills lack talent. For example, was K Ellison a great draft pick because he starts for the Bills? No, he wouldn't even make the Pats roster. Same for Kyle Williams,McCargo and Simpson. How you can defend a Front Office that passes on Ngata for Donte frickin Whitner is beyond me.

 

Speaking of Top 10 Whitner, I believe Meriweather had a better year than he did last year.