The Senator Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 The Pats have moved on (4-0 since this broke against your beloved Bills). As for a link, here you go. http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.ph...20078.msg415556 Your wishful thinking clouds any objective analysis. The Pats D is actually getting younger and faster. The only players on their D that would be considered old for their positions are Tedy and SPrings. These guys will not be expected to be every down guys any more. In the last few years, the Pats have focused on getting younger and faster. Guyton and Mayo were the 2 fastest LBs at the combine last year. Thomas is considered a very fast LB. Wheatley and Wilhite were two of the fastest CBs in last years draft, and Butler was the fastest at this years combine. D is weak everywhere? The D line is among the best in football. They have the returning Def ROY. Also, you may want to check Meriweather's stats vs Top 10 Whitner from last year. He's a lot more of a play maker than WHitner has been in any year of his career so far. But who lets actual truths get in the way? WTF are you hanging out here for? Raining in Provincetown? Or did your boyfriend dump you?
Kelly the Dog Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 Actually, they did not use the Poison Pill clause, but no point in using facts to back your argument. Here is an exerpt from the Globe about the trade for Welker. By that point, the only question was how to finalize the process. The Patriots were prepared to sign Welker to an offer sheet that included a "poison pill" that would make it difficult for the Dolphins to match. Yet in hopes of avoiding the bad blood that sometimes can accompany offer sheets - the Seahawks and Vikings recently engaged in a nasty back and forth with offensive lineman Steve Hutchinson and receiver Nate Burleson exchanging teams via offer sheets - the Patriots instead called the Dolphins and proposed a trade. The Dolphins were amenable, shipping Welker to the Patriots for second- and seventh-round draft choices. The Dolphins used the second-rounder (60th overall) to select Hawaii center Samson Satele, who has started all six games this season. The seventh-round pick (238th overall) yielded Abraham Wright, a linebacker from Colorado who has been inactive for every game Ummm... the Dolphins only did that so they wouldnt have the poison pill contract put on them. The Pats prepared it and the Fins knew it. That's WHY the Fins accepted the deal, otherwise they wouldnt have got the 2 and the 7 and would have lost him for nothing. It's even implicit in the link you showed.
ax4782 Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 The Pats have moved on (4-0 since this broke against your beloved Bills). As for a link, here you go. http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.ph...20078.msg415556 Your wishful thinking clouds any objective analysis. The Pats D is actually getting younger and faster. The only players on their D that would be considered old for their positions are Tedy and SPrings. These guys will not be expected to be every down guys any more. In the last few years, the Pats have focused on getting younger and faster. Guyton and Mayo were the 2 fastest LBs at the combine last year. Thomas is considered a very fast LB. Wheatley and Wilhite were two of the fastest CBs in last years draft, and Butler was the fastest at this years combine. D is weak everywhere? The D line is among the best in football. They have the returning Def ROY. Also, you may want to check Meriweather's stats vs Top 10 Whitner from last year. He's a lot more of a play maker than WHitner has been in any year of his career so far. But who lets actual truths get in the way? I would consider Seymour and Wilfork to be getting older, particularly at their positions. Wilfork is starting his seventh season and Seymour his ninth. No one said anything about Whitner. Calm down. No one said anything about Meriweather either. The fact is, you do have some young talented players, but they have little experience. You are also getting older at other positions. Why so defensive? I can admit that my team has weaknesses. For example, Schobel is getting older and we will likely have to go after another DE in the draft next year to ensure that we have two solid young DE pass rushers. Same goes for our SAM OLB. Ellison is adequate but not good enough IMO to be an every game starter. That is also going to have to be addressed either in the offseason that is left, or next year. The jury is out on whether Walker will be good enough to play LT. I think he will, but only time will tell. Your OL is starting to get old as well, and they haven't held up to the pass rush as well over the last 17 games. See the Pats* last SB game for some clear evidence. Also, I'm glad to see that you had no response for the first 90 percent of my post and rather chose to make personal attacks about "letting truths get in the way." Strange words coming from a Pats fan whose team was exposed for cheating. Oh the irony.
dave mcbride Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 That's nonsense. Most teams would never do it and it's only happened a couple times in history. It would happen every year if teams were willing to do it, and it's incredible the league hasnt officially made it illegal. It cracks me up that you of all people would take this stance, you of the "he left her for dead", and the constant criticism of posters for being mean to each other. I actually liked that part of you because it was consistent. But now sticking up for the poison pill? One of the most scumbag things you can do in all of sports? That's not taking advantage of the rules, it's taking hostages and extortion. I wouldn't conflate a violent (albeit unintentional) crime with standard issue NFL skullduggery (standard issue because there are precedents and because the NFL allows it). I guess I'm not at all upset by what they did; it's a byzantine system that has all sorts of irrationalities, and they took advantage of it legally. Don't blame them, blame the NFL. Were you so exercised by the Hutchinson move, which was a far bigger deal at the time? Ultimately, the blame lies with the Dolphins for not recognizing what they had and locking him up before free agency hit. That said, you're wise when it comes to these matters, and I respect your position. Personally, I just didn't think what they did was all that bad. To reiterate, I blame the Dolphins.
afcfan1 Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 I would consider Seymour and Wilfork to be getting older, particularly at their positions. Wilfork is starting his seventh season and Seymour his ninth. No one said anything about Whitner. Calm down. No one said anything about Meriweather either. The fact is, you do have some young talented players, but they have little experience. You are also getting older at other positions. Why so defensive? I can admit that my team has weaknesses. For example, Schobel is getting older and we will likely have to go after another DE in the draft next year to ensure that we have two solid young DE pass rushers. Same goes for our SAM OLB. Ellison is adequate but not good enough IMO to be an every game starter. That is also going to have to be addressed either in the offseason that is left, or next year. The jury is out on whether Walker will be good enough to play LT. I think he will, but only time will tell. Your OL is starting to get old as well, and they haven't held up to the pass rush as well over the last 17 games. See the Pats* last SB game for some clear evidence. Also, I'm glad to see that you had no response for the first 90 percent of my post and rather chose to make personal attacks about "letting truths get in the way." Strange words coming from a Pats fan whose team was exposed for cheating. Oh the irony. Your credibility was shot when you stated Wilfok is getting older. The guy is still in his rookie fricking contract. Your opinion on Walker is wishful thinking. He's tried left tackle, while with Oakland, and he was terrible. The Pats OL is not even close to old but may need to be addressed if Mankins walks after this year. Ellison is not even adequate. He's horrible. He's way undersized and can't run a lick.
ax4782 Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 Your credibility was shot when you stated Wilfok is getting older. The guy is still in his rookie fricking contract. Your opinion on Walker is wishful thinking. He's tried left tackle, while with Oakland, and he was terrible. The Pats OL is not even close to old but may need to be addressed if Mankins walks after this year. Ellison is not even adequate. He's horrible. He's way undersized and can't run a lick. Wilfork is in his sixth year, and will be turning 28 this year. That's coming to the end of prime years for a DT of his size. Sorry, but that's the NFL. Not saying he can't be productive. You are conflating the two notions, just that he's going to start losing a step in the speed and power department. Walker was the only good player on that Oakland line. His LG was a sieve, as was his center. When he played at RT, his RG was even worse. Walker had a bad last year in Oakland, but has looked much better for the Bills. Statistically and technically he was one of the best players at his position last year. Agree with you to some extent about Ellison. Like I said, that will have to be addressed. As for the Pats* OL, Hochstein, Nathan and Kaczur are all on the wrong side of 30 or will be by the end of the season. That's the entire starting corps of your interior offensive line. Sorry bub, but apparently people who aren't NE fans can be objective about your team's flaws. That fact is explained by Belicheck's statements that he wanted to draft Eric Wood if he fell to the second round. Guess even your coach is more willing to address the weaker points of your team than you are.
Kelly the Dog Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 I wouldn't conflate a violent (albeit unintentional) crime with standard issue NFL skullduggery (standard issue because there are precedents and because the NFL allows it). I guess I'm not at all upset by what they did; it's a byzantine system that has all sorts of irrationalities, and they took advantage of it legally. Don't blame them, blame the NFL. Were you so exercised by the Hutchinson move, which was a far bigger deal at the time? Ultimately, the blame lies with the Dolphins for not recognizing what they had and locking him up before free agency hit. That said, you're wise when it comes to these matters, and I respect your position. Personally, I just didn't think what they did was all that bad. To reiterate, I blame the Dolphins. First, surely the Fins should have locked him up. I thought besides Jason Taylor that he was their best player. I don't see how they didnt know he wasnt great in 2006. He didnt even start and I think he was their leading receiver. But second, yes, I did think the Hutch thing was horrible, and was really pissed at the Wolford thing. I frankly have no idea why the NFL does allow it, but I surely don't equate things like stretching the rules a little on injury lists or other what you called "skullduggery" with signing a guy to a contract that says "if you play five games in the state of Florida, you get an extra 20 million dollars" so the Patriots can sign him to that deal and the Dolphins can't. That, to me, is extortion.
afcfan1 Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 Wilfork is in his sixth year, and will be turning 28 this year. That's coming to the end of prime years for a DT of his size. Sorry, but that's the NFL. Not saying he can't be productive. You are conflating the two notions, just that he's going to start losing a step in the speed and power department. Walker was the only good player on that Oakland line. His LG was a sieve, as was his center. When he played at RT, his RG was even worse. Walker had a bad last year in Oakland, but has looked much better for the Bills. Statistically and technically he was one of the best players at his position last year. Agree with you to some extent about Ellison. Like I said, that will have to be addressed. As for the Pats* OL, Hochstein, Nathan and Kaczur are all on the wrong side of 30 or will be by the end of the season. That's the entire starting corps of your interior offensive line. Sorry bub, but apparently people who aren't NE fans can be objective about your team's flaws. That fact is explained by Belicheck's statements that he wanted to draft Eric Wood if he fell to the second round. Guess even your coach is more willing to address the weaker points of your team than you are. 28 is not even close to old for a NT. See Casey Hampton and Jamaal Williams. The best NT the Pats have had was a guy you should be familiar with, Ted Washington. He was in his upper 30s. Wilfork has 7-8 solid years ahead of him. Walker was never even a good player with Oakland. He was horrendous, and only good at blocking kicks. On the Pats OL, you obviously are speaking from an uninformed position. I have no idea who this Nathan is and Hochstein is a backup. Kaczur will be 30 in July, and was already losing PT to Ryan O'Callaghan. The O Line is not even slightly a worry. Like I have said in previous posts, the one area of concern would be OLB opposite Thomas. Shawn Crable was drafted in the 3rd last year, and they have high hopes for him. There is a lot of talk about signing Jason Taylor which would also help that area. Unfortunately for you guys, the Pats are in a very strong position now and moving forward. BTW, the Pats go into next years draft with a 1st and 3 2nd round picks.
nucci Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 Your credibility was shot when you stated Wilfok is getting older. The guy is still in his rookie fricking contract. Your opinion on Walker is wishful thinking. He's tried left tackle, while with Oakland, and he was terrible. The Pats OL is not even close to old but may need to be addressed if Mankins walks after this year. Ellison is not even adequate. He's horrible. He's way undersized and can't run a lick. The only other option is he is getting younger.
afcfan1 Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 The only other option is he is getting younger. The implication was that his skills are, or are on the verge of diminishing due to his age. I should have worded the response differently. My bad.
nucci Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 The implication was that his skills are, or are on the verge of diminishing due to his age. I should have worded the response differently. My bad. I know. Just trying to lighten things up a bit.
ax4782 Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 The implication was that his skills are, or are on the verge of diminishing due to his age. I should have worded the response differently. My bad. As I stated, I didn't say he was going to start sucking. I said he is coming out of his prime. Ted Washington was a completely different kind of NT. Size wise they aren't even close. Washington was listed at 340 but played more like 380. Wilfork is not even close to that, and they aren't playing for the same type of role either. Washington's job was to stop the runs up the middle. At 380, that's not that hard, even at 35. Wilfork is asked to do a lot more than that, and after six or seven year of battling in the trenches you start to lose a step. Watch some tape of Walker playing in Oakland, and you'll quickly see that he was beaten not when he was covering for his primary responsibility, but rather trying to do another persons job who couldn't hold up at the line of attack. You are obviously talking from an outsider's perspective on this board.
MattM Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 The Pats have moved on (4-0 since this broke against your beloved Bills). As for a link, here you go. http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.ph...20078.msg415556 Your wishful thinking clouds any objective analysis. The Pats D is actually getting younger and faster. The only players on their D that would be considered old for their positions are Tedy and SPrings. These guys will not be expected to be every down guys any more. In the last few years, the Pats have focused on getting younger and faster. Guyton and Mayo were the 2 fastest LBs at the combine last year. Thomas is considered a very fast LB. Wheatley and Wilhite were two of the fastest CBs in last years draft, and Butler was the fastest at this years combine. D is weak everywhere? The D line is among the best in football. They have the returning Def ROY. Also, you may want to check Meriweather's stats vs Top 10 Whitner from last year. He's a lot more of a play maker than WHitner has been in any year of his career so far. But who lets actual truths get in the way? That link is busted--I got nothing when I clicked on it, but then again, considering the source, I'm not surprised. I agree that your D-line is good--hopefully you'll be able to re-sign both Wilfork and Seymour when they come up as FAs after this year, but somehow I doubt it. As Hobbs said this week, "guys got to get paid"--he's smart enough to realize that the days of playing in NE for below market deals is over since they have no rings to show for it lately. I also agree that your D is getting younger, but since it's with unproven draft picks and second year players, that hardly equates with quality. I was actually laughing at your other post on Crable--he sucked last year before going on IR and is apparently in BB's doghouse for lack of a work ethic (as per your own board). As for Meriweather, it helps when you have a D-line that can actually get pressure, but I'm still not convinced about him myself. My favorite memories of him are watching him get absolutely ripped apart by the Giants in that SB. Unlike you I'm sure (unless you're a masochist, but coming here and hanging out to get beaten on, maybe you are?), I've watched that 4th quarter on TIVO about 20 time and I laugh every time, especially on the Steve Smith catch where Brandon just got faked out of his jock and missed his man, leading to a key first down. And that after 19 games in the League, so I don't want to hear the "he was a rookie excuse"--priceless......
Ice Cold Bruschi Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 Wilfork is in his sixth year, and will be turning 28 this year. That's coming to the end of prime years for a DT of his size. Sorry, but that's the NFL. Not saying he can't be productive. You are conflating the two notions, just that he's going to start losing a step in the speed and power department. Walker was the only good player on that Oakland line. His LG was a sieve, as was his center. When he played at RT, his RG was even worse. Walker had a bad last year in Oakland, but has looked much better for the Bills. Statistically and technically he was one of the best players at his position last year. Agree with you to some extent about Ellison. Like I said, that will have to be addressed. As for the Pats* OL, Hochstein, Nathan and Kaczur are all on the wrong side of 30 or will be by the end of the season. That's the entire starting corps of your interior offensive line. Sorry bub, but apparently people who aren't NE fans can be objective about your team's flaws. That fact is explained by Belicheck's statements that he wanted to draft Eric Wood if he fell to the second round. Guess even your coach is more willing to address the weaker points of your team than you are. What are you talking about on Wilfork? Ted Washington, Pat Williams, Sam Adams? Theres all kinds of precedent for big nose tackles playing well into their thirties. And if we can't resign him we drafted his eventual replacement in the 2nd round this year. As for Walker whatever he's okay but not great, we've never had a problem with using him for a revolving door on pass rushes but thats just the pats and we own you so he might play better against other teams. As for our Line do you know what you're talking about? Our interior line consists of Dan Koppen, Stephen Neal and Logan Mankins I don't know who this "Nathan" guy is (only nathan on the roster is our freshly drafted long snapper), Hochstein is our jack of all trades back up filling in at guard on both sides and center and Nick Kaczur plays right tackle (not interior line). The only one whose getting old is Matt Light and he's been fine the last two seasons (pro bowl 2 years ago in fact) But we did draft a tackle in the second round to eventually replace Kaczur. You may have a low opinion of Belichick but I hope you're not under the assumption that he's an idiot whos letting his team crumble around him
MattM Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 What are you talking about on Wilfork? Ted Washington, Pat Williams, Sam Adams? Theres all kinds of precedent for big nose tackles playing well into their thirties. And if we can't resign him we drafted his eventual replacement in the 2nd round this year. As for Walker whatever he's okay but not great, we've never had a problem with using him for a revolving door on pass rushes but thats just the pats and we own you so he might play better against other teams. As for our Line do you know what you're talking about? Our interior line consists of Dan Koppen, Stephen Neal and Logan Mankins I don't know who this "Nathan" guy is (only nathan on the roster is our freshly drafted long snapper), Hochstein is our jack of all trades back up filling in at guard on both sides and center and Nick Kaczur plays right tackle (not interior line). The only one whose getting old is Matt Light and he's been fine the last two seasons (pro bowl 2 years ago in fact) But we did draft a tackle in the second round to eventually replace Kaczur. You may have a low opinion of Belichick but I hope you're not under the assumption that he's an idiot whos letting his team crumble around him I actually agree with you on Wilfork not being old for his position--DTs do play well into their 30s, as do OL in some cases. Speed is what goes first on athletes, which is why it's RB, WR, LB, DB and DE that you don't want on the wrong side of 30. If I were a Pats* fan, however, and after I contemplated suicide long and hard, I'd personally be worried that Big Vince is going to suffer a career ending knee injury when someone else gives him a Vince Wilfork-style cheap shot--and I'm only half joking about that. I never root for injuries, but he might be one guy I'd consider an exception for.....
The Senator Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 What are you talking about on Wilfork? Ted Washington, Pat Williams, Sam Adams? Theres all kinds of precedent for big nose tackles playing well into their thirties. And if we can't resign him we drafted his eventual replacement in the 2nd round this year. As for Walker whatever he's okay but not great, we've never had a problem with using him for a revolving door on pass rushes but thats just the pats and we own you so he might play better against other teams. As for our Line do you know what you're talking about? Our interior line consists of Dan Koppen, Stephen Neal and Logan Mankins I don't know who this "Nathan" guy is (only nathan on the roster is our freshly drafted long snapper), Hochstein is our jack of all trades back up filling in at guard on both sides and center and Nick Kaczur plays right tackle (not interior line). The only one whose getting old is Matt Light and he's been fine the last two seasons (pro bowl 2 years ago in fact) But we did draft a tackle in the second round to eventually replace Kaczur. You may have a low opinion of Belichick but I hope you're not under the assumption that he's an idiot whos letting his team crumble around him Actually, we're under the well-founded and time-proven assumption that you're an idiot, along with ALL NE* ersatz sports* fans*, and that you will go right back to being a NJ Giants fan once Belicheat* and his Cheatriettes* go 8-8 this season. OMFG, the incessant whining from you stupid tools is gonna be great. Bunch of band-wagon queers is all you got for fans up there in Boys' Town. That's why you almost lost your team to Hartford not that long ago. Try not to choke while you slobber over your anatomically correct Tom Brady blow-up doll.
Tipster19 Posted May 3, 2009 Author Posted May 3, 2009 I thought SpyGate was pushing it but this takes the cake. What's next, chicken blood and a seance? http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachus...stadium/?page=1
Ice Cold Bruschi Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 I thought SpyGate was pushing it but this takes the cake. What's next, chicken blood and a seance? http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachus...stadium/?page=1 The Dalai Lama came to UB two years ago and spoke in Bulls Stadium, so what?
ax4782 Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 What are you talking about on Wilfork? Ted Washington, Pat Williams, Sam Adams? Theres all kinds of precedent for big nose tackles playing well into their thirties. And if we can't resign him we drafted his eventual replacement in the 2nd round this year. As for Walker whatever he's okay but not great, we've never had a problem with using him for a revolving door on pass rushes but thats just the pats and we own you so he might play better against other teams. As for our Line do you know what you're talking about? Our interior line consists of Dan Koppen, Stephen Neal and Logan Mankins I don't know who this "Nathan" guy is (only nathan on the roster is our freshly drafted long snapper), Hochstein is our jack of all trades back up filling in at guard on both sides and center and Nick Kaczur plays right tackle (not interior line). The only one whose getting old is Matt Light and he's been fine the last two seasons (pro bowl 2 years ago in fact) But we did draft a tackle in the second round to eventually replace Kaczur. You may have a low opinion of Belichick but I hope you're not under the assumption that he's an idiot whos letting his team crumble around him Nothing in my post said anything about my opinion of Belicheat. I think he is a cheater, but he's also a good coach. Stop making assumptions based on things that weren't said. Second, if you are going to post on a message board and respond to someone, try reading the posts before yours. I said, just prior to your post that Wilfork wasn't going to suck, but that he was getting close to 30 and would begin to slow down. As was pointed out, speed is what goes first. No one said he wouldn't play into his thirties. I merely said that he wasn't going to be as fast and be able to use his size AND speed as effectively. As for Walker, I don't know what two games you were watching last year, but I don't actually think that Walker gave up a sack against NE in either game last year. He has been very good on the right side of the line. That said, I don't know how well is going to do at LT replacing Peters. Either way, try actually watching games and seeing how players do before you open your mouth. No one said it was just your interior line that was getting old. I said you have some age problems on the OL. No Pats* fans want to admit that there is one thing wrong with your team, but you all do have faults and weaknesses just like everyone else. The fact is, both teams are going to be competitive next year. We'll see where the chips fall at the end of the season, but I'm hoping you guys are still hurting about losing the Division crown to the Dolfags.
Ramius Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 I wouldn't conflate a violent (albeit unintentional) crime with standard issue NFL skullduggery (standard issue because there are precedents and because the NFL allows it). I guess I'm not at all upset by what they did; it's a byzantine system that has all sorts of irrationalities, and they took advantage of it legally. Don't blame them, blame the NFL. Were you so exercised by the Hutchinson move, which was a far bigger deal at the time? Ultimately, the blame lies with the Dolphins for not recognizing what they had and locking him up before free agency hit. That said, you're wise when it comes to these matters, and I respect your position. Personally, I just didn't think what they did was all that bad. To reiterate, I blame the Dolphins. First, surely the Fins should have locked him up. I thought besides Jason Taylor that he was their best player. I don't see how they didnt know he wasnt great in 2006. He didnt even start and I think he was their leading receiver. But second, yes, I did think the Hutch thing was horrible, and was really pissed at the Wolford thing. I frankly have no idea why the NFL does allow it, but I surely don't equate things like stretching the rules a little on injury lists or other what you called "skullduggery" with signing a guy to a contract that says "if you play five games in the state of Florida, you get an extra 20 million dollars" so the Patriots can sign him to that deal and the Dolphins can't. That, to me, is extortion. Both of you guys are forgetting that Welker was a RFA and the fins tendered him at the 2nd round level. The pats* then backed the fins into a corner by threatening to use the poison pill if the fins didn't trade welker. In the real world, that's called extortion. For their troubles, the fins got an extra 7th round pick out of it. Had they refused the trade, the pats* use the poison pill and the fins end up with a second rounder. The fins should have tagged him at the 1st or 1st/3rd level, but that doesn't make what the pats* did any less despicable.
Recommended Posts