Criminalizing legal advice - CIA, waterboarding

[drnykterstein]

I don't suppose you can find a actual record of the court martial and conviction, and not just apocryphal third-party statements about it, can you? Because until you do...pretty damned arguable.

 

.. do they post that kind of info online? would i not have to dig into some dusty old file in some library i don't have access to to get that info?

 

On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk." The picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier.

[DC Tom]

.. do they post that kind of info online? would i not have to dig into some dusty old file in some library i don't have access to to get that info?

 

Yes, I found that exact same phrase on thirty different pages (before I stopped looking). Have a primary source for that statement, perhaps?

 

Then post the one that says "February" (i.e. one month) instead of "two months". And the one that says "court martialled and convicted". And the one that says "officer" instead of "soldier"...four different reports of the same "documented" incident?

 

Of course, reading comprehension skills like yours, you probably can't see they're different anyway.

[GG]

.. do they post that kind of info online? would i not have to dig into some dusty old file in some library i don't have access to to get that info?

 

Don't you think it would be beneficial to find out whether the court martial was due to water-boarding and not something else the Army investigation discovered?

 

 

Did Al Capone go to jail for booze running?

[DC Tom]

Don't you think it would be beneficial to find out whether the court martial was due to water-boarding and not something else the Army investigation discovered?

 

 

Did Al Capone go to jail for booze running?

 

 

I was trying to avoid that point. I was afraid that much complexity would hurt his pointy little head.

[finknottle]

How can you assert that waterboarding is not illegal in this country in the face of these three precedents (japan, texas, and the soldier)? Name one time someone has been found waterboarding and not been punished for it.

 

And in how many of those three involved a non-citizen, non-uniformed enemy combatant water-boarded by a government under an authorized program?

 

Your logic leaves something to be desired. Would you say preventing a non-citizen from voting here is illegal because there is plenty of court precedent affirming voter rights in the US? Would you say that spying on somebody in Tehran without a warrant is illegal because it's illegal to do it to somebody in Denver?

[drnykterstein]

Yes, I found that exact same phrase on thirty different pages (before I stopped looking). Have a primary source for that statement, perhaps?

 

Then post the one that says "February" (i.e. one month) instead of "two months". And the one that says "court martialled and convicted". And the one that says "officer" instead of "soldier"...four different reports of the same "documented" incident?

 

Of course, reading comprehension skills like yours, you probably can't see they're different anyway.

 

So that's how you are going to justify this to yourself then? Question sources to the point where the sources we need none of us have access to. I mean do you deny it happened, Washington Post, NPR, and CBS News are among the outlets reporting this.

 

If so, we're done. I can't have rational arguments with people that are going to do irrational things like question sources that have no reason to be suspicious.

[drnykterstein]

I was trying to avoid that point. I was afraid that much complexity would hurt his pointy little head.

 

Why... what part of "court-martialed for water boarding a Vietnamese prisoner" leads you to think he was court-martialed for another reason. Or is it just that admitting it was for waterboarding causes to much of a rift in your republican beliefs, and thus cannot be accepted as truth?

 

Conclusions before evidence .. or conclusions because of evidence?

 

After World War II, U.S. military commissions prosecuted several Japanese soldiers for subjecting U.S. soldiers to waterboarding, according to Human Rights Watch. In 1968, a U.S. soldier was court-martialed for water boarding a Vietnamese prisoner.

 

"The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army," recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

 

If you aren't going to believe this stuff happened, say so. We'll be done. I don't want to argue with crazy people.

[drnykterstein]

Oh look... a 4th case.. I didn't even know about this one..

 

Earlier in 1901, the United States had taken a similar stand against water boarding during the Spanish-American War when an Army major was sentenced to 10 years of hard labor for water boarding an insurgent in the Philippines.

 

Does 4 cases count as precedent yet Tom? Or are you going to keep calling names?

[blzrul]

During the fighting in the Philippines, United States troops used waterboarding against Philippino insurgents. After the conclusion of fighting, Major Edwin Glenn and Lieutenant Edwin Hickman were tried for “conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline” by courts martial in Catlalogan, Samar in May, 1902 based upon infliction of the “water cure.” The defense was military necessity. Hickman was acquitted and Glenn was convicted.

Sources:

- Wallach, Evan. “Drop By Drop: Forgetting The History of Water Torture In U.S. Courts,” The Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, 2007.

- Wallach, Evan. “Waterboarding used to be a Crime,” Washington Post, Nov. 4, 2007.

 

After being convicted of murder in the state of Mississippi and sentenced to death, defendant Gerrard White appealed his murder conviction based upon arguments that his original confession was coerced through the use of the “water cure.” White won his appeal.

WHITE v. STATE.

No. 22114.

SUPREME COURT OF MISSISSIPPI

129 Miss. 182; 91 So. 903; 1922 Miss. LEXIS 36; 24 A.L.R. 699

 

In 1926, John Fisher, a man convicted of murder in Clarksdale Mississippi, had his murder conviction overturned on appeal due to the fact that his original confession had been coerced through the use of the “water cure.”

 

FISHER v. STATE. *

* Corpus Juris-Cyc. References: Criminal Law, 16CJ, p. 201, n. 31; p. 205, n. 65; p. 212, n. 52; p. 215,

n. 12; p. 722, n. 8; p. 723, n. 9, 10; p, 728, n. 78, 81; p. 733, n. 1; p. 734, n. 23; p. 735, n. 34, 40; p. 806,

n. 6.

No. 25903.

SUPREME COURT OF MISSISSIPPI

145 Miss. 116; 110 So. 361; 1926 Miss. LEXIS 8

 

 

“Charge: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, , at Fukoka Prisoner of War

Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asana, then a civilian

serving as an interpreter with the Armed Forces of Japan, a nation then at war with the

United States of America and its Allies, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.

Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did

willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and tortureMorris O. Killough, an American

Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring

water up his nostrils.

Specification 2: That on or about 15May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch

Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully,

brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O. Cash, and Munroe Dave

Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them, by forcingwater into

their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.

 

U.S. Military Commission, Yokohama, May 1-28, 1947

United States of America v. Hideji Nakamura, Yukio Asano, Seitara Hata,

and Takeo Kita

 

In 1983, James Parker (Texas Sheriff for San Jacinto County) and three of his deputies were charged by the Department of Justice with committing torture because of their use of water torture on prisoners. The four were convicted of “water torture,” which was upheld on appeal. They were sentenced to 10 years each. The case name was United States v. Parker et al.

UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. Carl LEE, Defendant-Appellant

No. 83-2675

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT

744 F.2d 1124; 1984 U.S. App. LEXIS 17759

[drnykterstein]

After being convicted of murder in the state of Mississippi and sentenced to death, defendant Gerrard White appealed his murder conviction based upon arguments that his original confession was coerced through the use of the “water cure.” White won his appeal.

WHITE v. STATE.

No. 22114.

SUPREME COURT OF MISSISSIPPI

129 Miss. 182; 91 So. 903; 1922 Miss. LEXIS 36; 24 A.L.R. 699

 

In 1926, John Fisher, a man convicted of murder in Clarksdale Mississippi, had his murder conviction overturned on appeal due to the fact that his original confession had been coerced through the use of the “water cure.”

 

FISHER v. STATE. *

* Corpus Juris-Cyc. References: Criminal Law, 16CJ, p. 201, n. 31; p. 205, n. 65; p. 212, n. 52; p. 215,

n. 12; p. 722, n. 8; p. 723, n. 9, 10; p, 728, n. 78, 81; p. 733, n. 1; p. 734, n. 23; p. 735, n. 34, 40; p. 806,

n. 6.

No. 25903.

SUPREME COURT OF MISSISSIPPI

145 Miss. 116; 110 So. 361; 1926 Miss. LEXIS 8

 

Oh look Tom, a 5th and 6th time that waterboarding was considered unconstitutional. That is 6 cases. Has precedent been set?

[VABills]

You still don't get it. "torture" against POW's is wrong, torture against foreign non=status enemies is not covered by international nor US law.

[drnykterstein]

You still don't get it. "torture" against POW's is wrong, torture against foreign non=status enemies is not covered by international nor US law.

 

"Non-status" is not a real status in the Geneva Conventions. Article 5 covers the case of a non-status anyways.

 

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Third_Geneva...ntion#Article_5

[GG]

"Non-status" is not a real status in the Geneva Conventions. Article 5 covers the case of a non-status anyways.

 

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Third_Geneva...ntion#Article_5

 

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but to me it's certainly ambiguous whether Article 5 confers POW status on everyone caught in a combat zone or whether it's a catch-all to determine precisely what kind of military they are. Considering international & US courts have generally been quiet on this issue, I'll take their silence as a bigger precedent than your interpretation.

[VABills]

"Non-status" is not a real status in the Geneva Conventions. Article 5 covers the case of a non-status anyways.

 

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Third_Geneva...ntion#Article_5

Wiki is opinions of idiots, not fact.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Wiki is opinions of idiots, not fact.

How funny is that.. Some one else told me that same exact thing. Weeks later they were using wiki to support their side of an argument.

It's 1 SOURCE of information. Nobody should take 1 source and run with it.

[Booster4324]

How funny is that.. Some one else told me that same exact thing. Weeks later they were using wiki to support their side of an argument.

It's 1 SOURCE of information. Nobody should take 1 source and run with it.

 

Actually it is Wikisource. I believe it only allows primary sources to be used. That doesn't mean it is correct, but it is different from the ordinary Wiki.

[drnykterstein]

Precedent Tom? Yes? No?

 

 

 

 

 

... or is it more calling names and not admitting you are wrong?

[RkFast]

Annie slays them again.

 

MUSLIMS: 'WE DO THAT ON FIRST DATES'

April 29, 2009

 

 

Without any pretense of an argument, which liberals are neurologically incapable of, the mainstream media are now asserting that our wussy interrogation techniques at Guantanamo constituted "torture" and have irreparably harmed America's image abroad.

 

Only the second of those alleged facts is true: The president's release of the Department of Justice interrogation memos undoubtedly hurt America's image abroad, as we are snickered at in capitals around the world, where they know what real torture is. The Arabs surely view these memos as a pack of lies. What about the pills Americans have to turn us gay?

 

The techniques used against the most stalwart al-Qaida members, such as Abu Zubaydah, included one terrifying procedure referred to as "the attention grasp." As described in horrifying detail in the Justice Department memo, the "attention grasp" consisted of:

 

"(G)rasping the individual with both hands, one hand on each side of the collar opening, in a controlled and quick motion. In the same motion as the grasp, the individual is drawn toward the interrogator."

 

The end.

 

There are rumors that Dick "Darth Vader" Cheney wanted to take away the interrogators' Altoids before they administered "the grasp," but Department of Justice lawyers deemed this too cruel.

 

And that's not all! As the torments were gradually increased, next up the interrogation ladder came "walling." This involves pushing the terrorist against a flexible wall, during which his "head and neck are supported with a rolled hood or towel that provides a C-collar effect to prevent whiplash."

 

People pay to have a lot rougher stuff done to them at Six Flags Great Adventure. Indeed, with plastic walls and soft neck collars, "walling" may be the world's first method of "torture" in which all the implements were made by Fisher-Price.

 

As the memo darkly notes, walling doesn't cause any pain, but is supposed to induce terror by making a "loud noise": "(T)he false wall is in part constructed to create a loud sound when the individual hits it, which will further shock and surprise." (!!!)

 

If you need a few minutes to compose yourself after being subjected to that horror, feel free to take a break from reading now. Sometimes a cold compress on the forehead is helpful, but don't let it drip or you might end up waterboarding yourself.

 

The CIA's interrogation techniques couldn't be more ridiculous if they were out of Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition sketch:

 

Cardinal! Poke her with the soft cushions! ...

Hmm! She is made of harder stuff! Cardinal Fang! Fetch ... THE COMFY CHAIR!

 

So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! ...

 

Now -- you will stay in the Comfy Chair until lunchtime, with only a cup of coffee at 11.

 

Further up the torture ladder -- from Guantanamo, not Monty Python -- comes the "insult slap," which is designed to be virtually painless, but involves the interrogator invading "the individual's personal space."

 

If that doesn't work, the interrogator shows up the next day wearing the same outfit as the terrorist. (Awkward.)

 

I will spare you the gruesome details of the CIA's other comical interrogation techniques and leap directly to the penultimate "torture" in their arsenal: the caterpillar.

 

In this unspeakable brutality, a harmless caterpillar is placed in the terrorist's cell. Justice Department lawyers expressly denied the interrogators' request to trick the terrorist into believing the caterpillar was a "stinging insect."

 

Human rights groups have variously described being trapped in a cell with a live caterpillar as "brutal," "soul-wrenching" and, of course, "adorable."

 

If the terrorist manages to survive the non-stinging caterpillar maneuver -- the most fiendish method of torture ever devised by the human mind that didn't involve being forced to watch "The View" -- CIA interrogators had another sadistic trick up their sleeves.

 

I am not at liberty to divulge the details, except to mention the procedure's terror-inducing name: "the ladybug."

 

Finally, the most savage interrogation technique at Guantanamo was "waterboarding," which is only slightly rougher than the Comfy Chair.

 

Thousands of our troops are waterboarded every year as part of their training, but not until it was done to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed -- mastermind of the 9/11 attack on America -- were liberal consciences shocked.

 

I think they were mostly shocked because they couldn't figure out how Joey Buttafuoco ended up in Guantanamo.

 

As non-uniformed combatants, all of the detainees at Guantanamo could have been summarily shot on the battlefield under the Laws of War.

 

Instead, we gave them comfy chairs, free lawyers, better food than is served in Afghani caves, prayer rugs, recreational activities and top-flight medical care -- including one terrorist who was released, whereupon he rejoined the jihad against America, after being fitted for an expensive artificial leg at Guantanamo, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer.

 

Only three terrorists -- who could have been shot -- were waterboarded. This is not nearly as bad as "snowboarding," which is known to cause massive buttocks pain and results in approximately 10 deaths per year.

 

Normal human beings -- especially those who grew up with my older brother, Jimmy -- can't read the interrogation memos without laughing.

 

At Al-Jazeera, they don't believe these interrogation memos are for real. Muslims look at them and say: THIS IS ALL THEY'RE DOING? We do that for practice. We do that to our friends.

 

But The New York Times is populated with people who can't believe they live in a country where people would put a caterpillar in a terrorist's cell.

 

www.anncoulter.com

[finknottle]

In the early colonies, courts ruled that feeding prisoners lobster more than once a week constituted cruel and unusual punishment.

[IDBillzFan]

Maybe I'm the only one who finds this funny and interesting at the same time, but apparently the US has no problem releasing memos outlining the country's interrogation methods, and is even considering the release of interrogation photos per a request by ACLU lawyers.

 

HOWEVER...

 

According to the NY Post, the $300,000 photos taken of Air Force One scaring the bejeezus out of NYC are "classified" and will not be released.

 

Glad we have our priorities straight.