A basic Bills problem - lack of an identity

[BillsVet]

SOLIDIFY?? the front 7?? We have one really good player right now out of our front 7.

Our front 7 needs major construction.

 

Look, I'm down on this team almost as much as anyone. I'm not big on depending on rookies to come in, but for this defense to improve they need a pass rush a better WLB. If they can get production from a rookie DE and LB, and that's a huge if, they won't be bad.

 

The front 7 is aging though, and you've got 4 guys on the DL in Schobel, Stroud, Denney, and Kelsay who are or will turn 30 during the season. That's why you've got to go DL if there's one worthy of 11. I can't forget the team's inability to pressure Warner in AZ last year. Those long drives need to stop if they're going to win more than 6 games this season. Brees, Brady, perhaps P. Manning will carve them if they can't rush the passer.

 

Of course, protecting the QB will be an issue this year.

[dave mcbride]

Look, I'm down on this team almost as much as anyone. I'm not big on depending on rookies to come in, but for this defense to improve they need a pass rush a better WLB. If they can get production from a rookie DE and LB, and that's a huge if, they won't be bad.

 

The front 7 is aging though, and you've got 4 guys on the DL in Schobel, Stroud, Denney, and Kelsay who are or will turn 30 during the season. That's why you've got to go DL if there's one worthy of 11. I can't forget the team's inability to pressure Warner in AZ last year. Those long drives need to stop if they're going to win more than 6 games this season. Brees, Brady, perhaps P. Manning will carve them if they can't rush the passer.

 

Of course, protecting the QB will be an issue this year.

It'll be an issue, but the offense will be better despite Peters' departure. I'm pretty confident about that (see above).

[Guest dog14787]

Good NFL teams usually have an identity, and they strive to maintain it over a number of years. Tampa focused on a particular type of defense and defensive player for a decade. Same with the Steelers and the Ravens. SF in the 1980s/1990s did the same with their offense. Since 2001, NE has had a very definable identity on both sides, and they get players who can excel in their system. All Parcells teams strive to do certain things - get big guys on defense and punish people. They focus on certain types of people as a consequence.

 

The Bills have no identity, and haven't had one since John Butler was in town. I think there is a way forward, though, and it can begin with this draft. As I look at them, they're probably going to be competent on offense despite some offensive line issues. They have excellent receivers, a good RB corps, and a good young QB. So I think they're generally fine. A nice TE would help, but I don't think they should devote a first or second round pick on one. If Evans, Lynch, Edwards, Reed, and Owens stay healthy, they're going to move the ball reasonably well. Owens is a *huge* upgrade, and he'll make a big difference. At any rate, I'd leave the offense pretty much as is and focus squarely on the defense.

 

What they essentially need are the guys Jauron had in Chicago: Colvin/Briggs, and Alex Brown. If they draft the equivalent of Brown and Briggs/Colvin, the defense will be very, very good. Schoebel will be back, they're already pretty solid at DT (although getting John Henderson would sure be nice). If if you add a legit DE through the draft (Ayers?) they'll have the making of a very good front four. If they get an LB like Briggs/Colvin-type skills either with the 28th or 42nd pick (Briggs was a 3rd rounder and Colvin a 4th rounder) they'll have the makings of a dominant defense. Whitner is good player at free safety, and should perform better if he doesn't have to cover for the weaker LBs (as he does now). Scott isn't great, but he's functional. The CB trio is very good. Florence, who is a better zone than man player, is an upgrade at nickel. Youbouty probably falls to dime, but he appears to have some skills (he's injury prone, though, and therefore not to be relied upon). Both McGee and McKelvin are quite talented, and this is a big money year for McGee.

 

The point is, the Bills are just a couple of players away from being a very good defensive team. The draft can help in this regard. If they want to establish an identity that'll last a while, that would be my preferred path. In contrast to their offense, they actually adhere to an established system that can work if it has the right players. I'm not saying the offensive system is bad, but I think it's too formative right now to be a plug-in-the-right-guys-and-its-off-to-the-races sort of unit. The defense can be.

 

To that end, I'll be very happy if they draft DE and LB early. Defense wins championships, after all ...

 

Lack of identity or the identity we want? Because losers probably comes to mind more often then not when identifying with the Buffalo Bills, something that goes all the way back to our consecutive Superbowl losses.

 

Do I look at my team this way? Of course not, but it doesn't surprise me that other folks do.

 

You want a better identity? Then we need to win ball games any way we can and start winning more then we lose.

 

Our identity will take care of itself.

[Dan]

Much agree with much of this thread. The Bills have lacked any identity at all for quite some time. Furthermore, they've really seemed to lack a passion for the game the last couple of years. Add the 2 together and you have the pitiful mess that we watched week after week during the last half of the '08 season.

 

What I don't understand is they currently have the tools and players to be a much better team. Sure, a few more pieces are needed, but I don't think we have nearly as many holes as so many think. But, we can be pretty good. Just look at the first 5 or 6 games of last season. Then look at the last 5 or 6 games. It almost looks like 2 different teams.

 

I watched the Chargers/Bills replay this weekend and it was incredible. I couldn't help but think.. wow, what happened to that team? On Offense: they mixed the run and pass effectively; used play action regularly; found the tight end in the passing game; and moved the ball with a good tempo. On Defense: they blitzed when needed, disguised their coverage schemes well, and contained the running lanes effectively. In short.. they looked like a completely competent and well balanced team. But then they completely reverted back to the vanilla, predictable, let's try to outsmart people approach that we witnessed.

 

So, I just don't get it. How can they look so competent in one game and then become so inept afterward? All I can figure is they have no identity and try to be all things all the time - sometimes they get it right, but most of the time they don't.

[Orton's Arm]

If you look at the Bears over the years (including after Jauron left), they've gotten good pressure from their LBs, and LBs have been core to that defense overall. I know that some teams discount the importance of linebacker, but I don't think the Bills should. Keith Ellison simply isn't good enough. If the Bills had had someone like Briggs, they could have shifted Mitchell over to the weak side last year and gotten both some pressure and stoutness from the strong side too. The Bills probably would have taken Keith Rivers last year if he hadn't been taken by Cincy, and it would have been just as good a pick as McKelvin.

I agree that Keith Ellison isn't the answer at OLB. But I think that a team with as many holes as the Bills needs to set priorities. Protecting the passer, and generating a good pass rush with the front four, should take precedence over all else. If the Bills were solid in those two areas, I would have no problem with using a very high draft pick on an OLB.

 

I also think that a good pass catching TE should be very high on the priority list. Add a couple good offensive linemen and a very good TE, and the Bills' offense could become similar to the offense the Giants had when they beat the Bills 20-19 in the Super Bowl.

 

I think that you're over-estimating the importance of Terrell Owens. First and foremost, he's only here for a season. Even if he delivers the single best season by an NFL WR ever, nothing he does will help us beyond 2009.

 

Secondly, Terrell Owens is getting on in years. Older players typically fade a little in the second half of the season, because their bodies don't recover as well from the pounding as they once did.

 

Thirdly, some of the teams for which Owens has played in the past were--at least before he joined--a good WR away from having solid offensive units. The Eagles, for example, had a good offensive line in place, had good players at QB and RB, and just needed a dominant WR to make it all come together. You could make the same argument about the Cowboys. While their offensive line wasn't perfect, it was a lot better than the line the Bills could put on the field if the season were to start today. A team needs a good--or at least decent--offensive line to get maximum benefit from Owens.

 

Fourth, it's rare for rookie players to contribute much, unless they're DBs, RBs, or LBs. The draft should be about building the best team you can for the long haul, not about maximizing players' rookie year contributions. And in the long haul, the Bills are going to need an infusion of talent on offense, no matter how well Owens might play this season.

 

And fifth, it's not like the Bills are going to go very far in the playoffs this season anyway, and nothing the Bills do in the upcoming draft is going to change that. But what they can do is use the upcoming draft to help build the foundation for a dominant season next year.

[dave mcbride]

I agree that Keith Ellison isn't the answer at OLB. But I think that a team with as many holes as the Bills needs to set priorities. Protecting the passer, and generating a good pass rush with the front four, should take precedence over all else. If the Bills were solid in those two areas, I would have no problem with using a very high draft pick on an OLB.

 

I also think that a good pass catching TE should be very high on the priority list. Add a couple good offensive linemen and a very good TE, and the Bills' offense could become similar to the offense the Giants had when they beat the Bills 20-19 in the Super Bowl.

 

I think that you're over-estimating the importance of Terrell Owens. First and foremost, he's only here for a season. Even if he delivers the single best season by an NFL WR ever, nothing he does will help us beyond 2009.

 

Secondly, Terrell Owens is getting on in years. Older players typically fade a little in the second half of the season, because their bodies don't recover as well from the pounding as they once did.

 

Thirdly, some of the teams for which Owens has played in the past were--at least before he joined--a good WR away from having solid offensive units. The Eagles, for example, had a good offensive line in place, had good players at QB and RB, and just needed a dominant WR to make it all come together. You could make the same argument about the Cowboys. While their offensive line wasn't perfect, it was a lot better than the line the Bills could put on the field if the season were to start today. A team needs a good--or at least decent--offensive line to get maximum benefit from Owens.

 

Fourth, it's rare for rookie players to contribute much, unless they're DBs, RBs, or LBs. The draft should be about building the best team you can for the long haul, not about maximizing players' rookie year contributions. And in the long haul, the Bills are going to need an infusion of talent on offense, no matter how well Owens might play this season.

 

And fifth, it's not like the Bills are going to go very far in the playoffs this season anyway, and nothing the Bills do in the upcoming draft is going to change that. But what they can do is use the upcoming draft to help build the foundation for a dominant season next year.

I would contend that every qualification you make regarding TO is undercut by his own record. Sometimes, great skill players do make an offense significantly better, and sometimes a WR is more impactful than an LT. There's no rule about this except a rule of thumb, which is not to be trusted. The Niners in the early 2000s were not a talent rich team on offense. TO didn't single-handedly raise them to a different level, but he came pretty close. In his last year there, they finished 5th in offense. The next year, they finished 26th. Philly was 18th in offense prior to the year he joined the team. Dallas was 13, 14, and 15 in the years prior to his arrival, and their o-line was hardly talent rich. Flozell Adams isn't any more talented physically than Langston Walker. And let's not forget that TO is a large part of the reason Romo put up some staggering stats for a young, inexperienced QB with no pedigree. Moreover, Owens was damn good in most games last season. I see no reason why one would think he'd enter a precipitous decline this year. He's in great shape.

 

If you have any evidence suggesting that TO is less impactful than a LT, I'd appreciate it. I doubt you'll find any. This isn't to say that the Bills should ignore the position. It's more about recognizing that cliches about position importance don't always apply.

 

Finally, why can't the Bills make the playoffs next year? 7-9 isn't great, but it's not as if they're a bottom feeder. Such teams make the jump all the time, and the Bills have as good a shot as anyone else, in my opinion. If they don't get hit by injuries, they're a solid contender.

[Dan]

I would contend that every qualification you make regarding TO is undercut by his own record. Sometimes, great skill players do make an offense significantly better, and sometimes a WR is more impactful than an LT. There's no rule about this except a rule of thumb, which is not to be trusted. The Niners in the early 2000s were not a talent rich team on offense. TO didn't single-handedly raise them to a different level, but he came pretty close. In his last year there, they finished 5th in offense. The next year, they finished 26th. Philly was 18th in offense prior to the year he joined the team. Dallas was 13, 14, and 15 in the years prior to his arrival. And let's not forget that TO is a large part of the reason Romo put up some staggering stats for a young, inexperienced QB with no pedigree. Moreover, Owens was damn good in most games last season. I see no reason why one would think he'd enter a precipitous decline this year. He's in great shape.

 

If you have any evidence suggesting that TO is less impactful than a LT, I'd appreciate it. I doubt you'll find any. This isn't to say that the Bills should ignore the position. It's more about recognizing that cliches about position importance don't always apply.

 

Finally, why can't the Bills make the playoffs next year? 7-9 isn't great, but it's not as if they're a bottom feeder. Such teams make the jump all the time, and the Bills have as good a shot as anyone else, in my opinion. If they don't get hit by injuries, they're a solid contender.

He plays for the Bills now. Hello.....

[Sisyphean Bills]

Jauron = vanilla pudding.

 

The Bills will have an identity when they get a coach that can instill one.

In 8 years as a head coach, Jauron has had 4 different offensive coordinators and each has subscribed to a somewhat different philosophy. When Jauron came to Buffalo, he felt that "The Greatest Show on Turf" and the "Tampa 2" were the systems to use, and they were hot tickets at the time. But, is it just me or does that smack a little more of "copy cat" than it does innovation, long-term planning, and following one's own path to success? 3 short years later, teams are dumping those systems and many NFL execs are already retooling their offenses to re-energize a power attack and grind up the smaller, quicker defenses that Dungy and his disciples had success with.

[dave mcbride]

In 8 years as a head coach, Jauron has had 4 different offensive coordinators and each has subscribed to a somewhat different philosophy. When Jauron came to Buffalo, he felt that "The Greatest Show on Turf" and the "Tampa 2" were the systems to use, and they were hot tickets at the time. But, is it just me or does that smack a little more of "copy cat" than it does innovation, long-term planning, and following one's own path to success? 3 short years later, teams are dumping those systems and many NFL execs are already retooling their offenses to re-energize a power attack and grind up the smaller, quicker defenses that Dungy and his disciples had success with.

That's why they traded for Stroud and signed Mitchell (a big LB - 253 pounds) and why I think they really want a tougher LB at the other outside spot. Allen Wilson, who appears to have a good relationship with Fewell, has stressed again and again that Ellison isn't good enough because he's too small. I expect (hope?) the Bills prioritize OLB this draft.

[SuperKillerRobots]

Good NFL teams usually have an identity, and they strive to maintain it over a number of years. Tampa focused on a particular type of defense and defensive player for a decade. Same with the Steelers and the Ravens. SF in the 1980s/1990s did the same with their offense. Since 2001, NE has had a very definable identity on both sides, and they get players who can excel in their system. All Parcells teams strive to do certain things - get big guys on defense and punish people. They focus on certain types of people as a consequence.

 

The Bills have no identity, and haven't had one since John Butler was in town. I think there is a way forward, though, and it can begin with this draft. As I look at them, they're probably going to be competent on offense despite some offensive line issues. They have excellent receivers, a good RB corps, and a good young QB. So I think they're generally fine. A nice TE would help, but I don't think they should devote a first or second round pick on one. If Evans, Lynch, Edwards, Reed, and Owens stay healthy, they're going to move the ball reasonably well. Owens is a *huge* upgrade, and he'll make a big difference. At any rate, I'd leave the offense pretty much as is and focus squarely on the defense.

 

What they essentially need are the guys Jauron had in Chicago: Colvin/Briggs, and Alex Brown. If they draft the equivalent of Brown and Briggs/Colvin, the defense will be very, very good. Schoebel will be back, they're already pretty solid at DT (although getting John Henderson would sure be nice). If if you add a legit DE through the draft (Ayers?) they'll have the making of a very good front four. If they get an LB like Briggs/Colvin-type skills either with the 28th or 42nd pick (Briggs was a 3rd rounder and Colvin a 4th rounder) they'll have the makings of a dominant defense. Whitner is good player at free safety, and should perform better if he doesn't have to cover for the weaker LBs (as he does now). Scott isn't great, but he's functional. The CB trio is very good. Florence, who is a better zone than man player, is an upgrade at nickel. Youbouty probably falls to dime, but he appears to have some skills (he's injury prone, though, and therefore not to be relied upon). Both McGee and McKelvin are quite talented, and this is a big money year for McGee.

 

The point is, the Bills are just a couple of players away from being a very good defensive team. The draft can help in this regard. If they want to establish an identity that'll last a while, that would be my preferred path. In contrast to their offense, they actually adhere to an established system that can work if it has the right players. I'm not saying the offensive system is bad, but I think it's too formative right now to be a plug-in-the-right-guys-and-its-off-to-the-races sort of unit. The defense can be.

 

To that end, I'll be very happy if they draft DE and LB early. Defense wins championships, after all ...

 

I absolutely agree with your sentiment that the Bills should go for a dominant defense this year. If we can get two high quality, impact players for the front 7, we can be that good. Turning those two first rounders (and whatever it cost to trade up if needed) for Ayers/etc and Clay Matthews/Brian Cushing, they would be able to improve the defense. Unfortunately this depends on Bell probably starting at one of the tackles positions this year, for better or worse.

[Guest dog14787]

Lack of identity or the identity we want? Because losers probably comes to mind more often then not when identifying with the Buffalo Bills, something that goes all the way back to our consecutive Superbowl losses.

 

Do I look at my team this way? Of course not, but it doesn't surprise me that other folks do.

 

You want a better identity? Then we need to win ball games any way we can and start winning more then we lose.

 

Our identity will take care of itself.

 

 

 

I think my post from early today sucks and the fact that not one person called me out on this post tells me folks are pretty down and I'm sorry for not having something more constructive to say.

 

This is a good thread and I agree that we do need to find an identity and build on it.

[PromoTheRobot]

I think the identity evetually comes down to "good" vs "suck".

 

PTR

[Tcali]

Look, I'm down on this team almost as much as anyone. I'm not big on depending on rookies to come in, but for this defense to improve they need a pass rush a better WLB. If they can get production from a rookie DE and LB, and that's a huge if, they won't be bad.

 

The front 7 is aging though, and you've got 4 guys on the DL in Schobel, Stroud, Denney, and Kelsay who are or will turn 30 during the season. That's why you've got to go DL if there's one worthy of 11. I can't forget the team's inability to pressure Warner in AZ last year. Those long drives need to stop if they're going to win more than 6 games this season. Brees, Brady, perhaps P. Manning will carve them if they can't rush the passer.

 

Of course, protecting the QB will be an issue this year.

I'm not worried so much about the age of our D line. Its the talent thats the problem.Stroud is the only good player there.

So of course u have to go D line.