Fake-Fat Sunny Posted November 3, 2004 Posted November 3, 2004 The suggestion has been made (by ICE who has returned again to TSW) and even hinted at as an eventuality by JMac of moving MW to LG. One certainly needs to tale this idea seriously as JMac has publicly mentioned this possibility. However, this strikes me as a radical mid-season move which would certainly be against the Bills interests if it was done now. Further, such a move may be possible in the off-season, but even then it strikes me as having such a limited chance of making this a better performing team given all the other OL question marks that this would need a lot of work, smart moves anmd good luck to work out. Look, on the field this move would trigger so many other changes to accomodate it would mean essentially rebuilding our OL on the fly in mid-season while at the same time a bunch of other factors would depend on how this worked. Specifically: 1. An opening would created at starting RT which I assume Price would fill, unless you have decided that depth chart listed back-up Dylan McFarland is worthy of being promoted to starting RT. 2. If Price is your starting RT, you now have McFarland backing up both tackle slots. Unless if an injury occurs to Jennings (not unlikely) or Price (it has happened before) you are now going to move MW back to the spot you decided he was inadequate to play. 3. The move of MW to LG means that you have decided to bench Lawrence Smith. While Smith is clearly not a world beater at LG, he actually has produced far more than the Bills should have reasonably expected from a UDFA journeyman who has moved from some the Ravens PS to be a Bills starter in the blink of a football eye. He has failed to produce in the redzone, but this problem was improved by bringing in Bannan to fill for him in the redzone on a half dozen or so plays. For the entire game against Miami, the Ravens and the bulk of the game against the Cards, Smith has been part of opening good holes for WM and a sackless game Sunday. He ain't great by a longshot, but certainly seems to merit playing time to get better from his recent youthful beginnings. 4. Who is sure MW is more productive for the Bills at LG than RT. This may work as opposing DTs are getting bigger and MW's huge size fits the demographics. However, it isa different game and different responsibilities at these 2 positions and even under the best of circumstances this move will take time to work. Mid-season with one QB folks call a statue, with an injured rookie QB who will be learning the game, and with WM on the rebuilding path seems an odd time to experiment with this move. These factors are why this move seems suicidal in mid-season and may even be tough in the off-season. It is doable if it is practiced and practiced again in mini-camps. However, this OL will have a number of uncertainties like: 1. Will Jennings be back? Doubful in my mind 2. Is Teague the man for center play? Possible in my mind but if a good center is gettable as an FA and Jennings is gone I probably move Teague to the LT slot he wanted when acquired. 3. Can Smith be developed at LG? I think so. He has come farther than anyone could have expected at this point and if this youngster continues to improvr even at a slower pace than his jump from UDFA to PS to starter he will fill the slot for us. He's not there yet and really did need to be replaced for a half dozen plus plays around the redzone but you find few good-to-go sarters on other team's PS. Simply making our team asa back-up would have been wonderful progress by him this year. To date MW has not played like a #4 choice should play. However, the penalty for this failure is not to cut him as some suggest or to move him (particularly if the tremor caused do not serve our interests), but he penalty is that he is not made a Pro Bowl player and his next contract will not grow or even lessen if the market allows. For now, I think the best bet for the Bills is for JMac to work this season to give his players what they didn't get under Vinky and Ruel. In the off-season we need to get additional players, but his will probably be an FA center so Teague can replace Jennings or an FA LT (unlikely due to cost). Perhaps you move MW to LG, but if you do you have given up on Smith developing and we have gaps at both tackles to fill in FA dealings this off-season and Teague is almost definitely your center..
JStranger76 Posted November 3, 2004 Posted November 3, 2004 You know, before the season I like many hoped for a bigger player at center. But, after looking at most teams centers, Teague is actually one of the bigger centers in the league and has played pretty darn good this year. I wouldn't mind if somehow we got a ProBowl center to come here, but I am more concerned about the tackle positions if MW was to move to LG this offseason. I think the Dylan McFarland as a starter talk is just plain silly, so we need two starting tackles if this happens. Jennings is 90% likely to leave, so there is work to be done. If J. Peters makes progree as a T, he could be a very good option at FT, leaving only LT as a big, gaping hole. I think Teague stays right where he is.
Bear Posted November 3, 2004 Posted November 3, 2004 Here's how I see it: Moving MW to LG should signify the end to any attempt to make the playoffs, and instead start seriously preparing for next season. Since we are out of the playoff hunt as it is, why the hell not? 1. An opening would created at starting RT which I assume Price would fill, unless you have decided that depth chart listed back-up Dylan McFarland is worthy of being promoted to starting RT.2. If Price is your starting RT, you now have McFarland backing up both tackle slots. Unless if an injury occurs to Jennings (not unlikely) or Price (it has happened before) you are now going to move MW back to the spot you decided he was inadequate to play. Once this move is made, it would also be time to move other people around as well. Move Teague to LT and let Jennings play RT. Jennings played his best ball, by far, while playing RT, and should be an upgrade at this point. While you are finding out if MW can play LG, you are also finding out if Teague can play LT. It makes sense. By the end of the season, you have a good idea of what positions need upgraded. Jennings will probably leave, so we know we will need a RT, but if Teauge plays well at LT and Mike plays well at LG, then the only other need is Center. 3. The move of MW to LG means that you have decided to bench Lawrence Smith. I love the fact that LS has come in, played his ass off and earned the starting job. That said, his talent level is "backup". He will make a very good backup guard for us, and that is exactly where he should be. Making these moves in the middle of the season is NOT way to win now. It's a way to get ready to win next year. If we wait until mini-camps to find out what we have, we will have missed out on FA and the draft. Why draft/sign a LT if Teague can play the position? Why NOT get a RT if MW excels at guard and they decide to move him there? These questions can be answered THIS season, and fixed before next year.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted November 3, 2004 Author Posted November 3, 2004 Let the 2005 pre-season begin and let it begin now. Actually I think that as a business move this option is precluded until the chance for the playoffs is nunerically impossible. For the Bills the vast majority of the tickets for the remaining games are already sold, but declaing the season essentially over and done until 2005 will have impacts on our bottomline in terms of lower turnstile count, less parking, etcetera and an even bigger impact on the league in terms of TV eyeballs on games where the Bills are clearly experimenting and not fielding the most competitive team for this year. The end of the season is one thing in terms of teams being more interested in winning late instead of winning now, but I don't see the Bills partners taking kindly to the team pulling the plug so early. Besides, if win next week at home, a 3-5 record in the first half of the season clearly means this team will need to show up to win this year every game or you build a losing ethic in your players.
Guest Guest_keithg_* Posted November 3, 2004 Posted November 3, 2004 I am starting to think that we leave Big Mike right where he is...get him down about 15 lbs to get quicker and let him settle in to the RT spot for the next 6-8 years. I just don't see him being able to pull and get around the corner as OG's need to do. I think we are O.K. with the tandem of Teague/Tucker at center and CV at RG...so the only concerns for me are as follows: I beleive that JJ is gone next year...so I say start MP at left tackle and groom a Jason Peters/McFarland/FA to back up at tackle. I would then go into Free Agency and sign another solid vet ala Villereal for LG and use Lawrence Smith and Tucker as experienced back ups who can start if anyone gets injured on the interior of the line. LT M Price...LG Vet FA...C Teague...RG C Villereal...RT M Williams Get a starting LG through FA and a solid FA tackle as a back up. I think with this O line and Losman's mobility, we would be fine.
San-O Posted November 3, 2004 Posted November 3, 2004 Let the 2005 pre-season begin and let it begin now. Actually I think that as a business move this option is precluded until the chance for the playoffs is nunerically impossible. For the Bills the vast majority of the tickets for the remaining games are already sold, but declaing the season essentially over and done until 2005 will have impacts on our bottomline in terms of lower turnstile count, less parking, etcetera and an even bigger impact on the league in terms of TV eyeballs on games where the Bills are clearly experimenting and not fielding the most competitive team for this year. The end of the season is one thing in terms of teams being more interested in winning late instead of winning now, but I don't see the Bills partners taking kindly to the team pulling the plug so early. Besides, if win next week at home, a 3-5 record in the first half of the season clearly means this team will need to show up to win this year every game or you build a losing ethic in your players. 99880[/snapback] So, they should leave MW at left tackle to sell more hotdogs?
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted November 3, 2004 Author Posted November 3, 2004 So, they should leave MW at left tackle to sell more hotdogs? 100021[/snapback] Even this feeble suggestion makes more football sense than moving him to LG right now.
ICE Posted November 3, 2004 Posted November 3, 2004 How someone could equate moving MW to LG = Giving up on the season blah blah blah is beyond me. MW to guard UPGRADES the OL as a whole. Putting a FASTER and more EXPERIENCED Price at RT UPGRADES the position and the line. It is a win win. bottom line is this, Mike williams will always be too big and too slow in this league as a tackle. ESPN did a HUGE Story on tackles being too big in this league and how DE's are only about 265 and QUICK! Jim McNally had stated in August he wanted MW there at Guard and Price at Tackle. Now somone other than him has obviously over ruled him. What pisses me off is this....why bring in JMac? I mean if you bring in one of the best and he wants to put this player there and that player over here and you over rule him....Why bother? But again the thing that just amazes me is how anyone can sit there and equate MW to guard a sign of giving up the playoffs (Which we are out of) or cashing in the season. I mean WTF????
JStranger76 Posted November 3, 2004 Posted November 3, 2004 I'm not against it at all myself. In the early 90's it was go big on the outside and more athletic on the inside. Now DT's are huge and it's mostly speedrusher's at end. There are some guards out there making some big money RIGHT NOW because of this( Thomas on the Skins, Larry Allen, Damian Woody to name a few ) so sorry, the Mike Williams makes to much money to play guard argument just doesn't hold up anymore. You can still say he was drafted to high to play guard, but not overpaid if he plays at a Pro Bowl level there, which is very possible.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted November 3, 2004 Author Posted November 3, 2004 How someone could equate moving MW to LG = Giving up on the season blah blah blah is beyond me. MW to guard UPGRADES the OL as a whole. Putting a FASTER and more EXPERIENCED Price at RT UPGRADES the position and the line. It is a win win. bottom line is this, Mike williams will always be too big and too slow in this league as a tackle. ESPN did a HUGE Story on tackles being too big in this league and how DE's are only about 265 and QUICK! Jim McNally had stated in August he wanted MW there at Guard and Price at Tackle. Now somone other than him has obviously over ruled him. What pisses me off is this....why bring in JMac? I mean if you bring in one of the best and he wants to put this player there and that player over here and you over rule him....Why bother? But again the thing that just amazes me is how anyone can sit there and equate MW to guard a sign of giving up the playoffs (Which we are out of) or cashing in the season. I mean WTF???? 100361[/snapback] I think moving MW to LG downgrades the performance of this line in the short term until he learns the new position and there is always the potential that he doesn't succeed at making the move. Even worse the tremors and effects this move has on the entire line makes this a proposition that essentially leaves one builidng the OL from scratch. A team can do this with some planning, work, preparation and dilgence by the unit but it is a move that takes time and will need the off-season and many minicamps to pull off. I assume you were at least suggesting this for the off-season as in some other posts, but to do it now strikes me as suicide and a declaration that we were turning the rest of 2004 into a pre-season for 2005. I don't see this happening until we are mathermatically eliminated or the last couple of games this season. If someone is proposing moving MW to LG right now, then they must know something about Dylan McFarland the rest of us don't know because since you are moving Price into the RT starter slot, this leaves not only skips over McFarland who is the reserve RT on the depth char, but actually makes him the reserve LT as well since Price is now starting. Given Jennings frequency of injury you are pretty much guaranteeing him a start on one side or the other since one of the main wraps on Price is that while he is a great back-up an injury he suffered earlier this season as a Bill and the events of his career raise questions about relying on him full time. In addtion to acting on the suggestion that MW is not an adequate player to start and tackle money this suggestion means giving up on Smith starting at LG. This is probably a reasonable assessment of his current skills and production, but remember how far he has come from being a UDFA who qualified for the Ravens PS last year to becoming our starting LG after Sullivasn and Pucillo failed at the job in pre-season. I'd be surprised to find out that there wasn't a major deficit in his game (which redzone play is) at this point. He's a youngster who has really come far very fast. He will get better if he plays and I don't see us panicking and benching him completely at this point, particularly when we have found a way with Bannan to produce in the weak areas of his game. Overall, I think you read too much into JMacs comments and what is going on behind the scenes at OBD regarding OL development. I read JMacs comments at the time as mostly designed to light a fire under MW that unless his play improved and he began to behave like a professional he risked being moved to LG out of the big dollar tackle job. I think lighting this fire under MW had the desired effect as his conditioning an play have improved as the season has gone on. Feel free to not believe me, but it was the team that awarded him a gameball for his play Sunday, his work resulted in O sacks of the QB. I think your theories of the motivation behind these movesare little more than theory.
JStranger76 Posted November 3, 2004 Posted November 3, 2004 Agreed. Like it or not, Williams has been getting better and better. I have no problem with him playing RT or LG, either way I see him soon becoming a great player at either position.
ICE Posted November 3, 2004 Posted November 3, 2004 Having talked several times with a former Bill that started Center, Guard and tackle I can tell you GUARD is by far the easiest position on the team. There is no real "Learning the position". He has the center right by him to assist with his assignment on blocking schemes. The move would be an easy one for an athlete with 1/2 a brain. BTW...that is a direct quote from the same person. I also have talked in depth with Mike Baab former Center for the Cleveland Browns (Bernie Kozar) who now throws in the highland games with me. AGAIN another Offensive linemen that has played the positions agrees...the move to Guard is an easy one. So according to those who have played the position at a Pro level.... 1) it does NOT take a signifigant ammount of time. 2) it will NOT require several mini camps to do. 3) it will NOT Take planning, work, preparation and dilgence by the unit . 4) we have Teague if needed to play backup at either tackle position. The same position he played for the Broncos. Tucker is doing fine at Center. 5) We had a friggin DEFENSIVE TACKLE plugged in there for something like 15-18 plays last week alone. If it is so damn hard, why did we plug in a DEFENSIVE tackle at Left Guard. It doesn't take several paragraphs to state the obvious, the move CAN Be made. It CAN be made on the fly. It does NOT take a ton of work or planning. The ONLY reason MW was not at guard come August is this...he is a #4 overall pick. He is being paid Tackle money and #4 pick money. Tom Donahoes EGO will not accept the fact this guy will be average at best and could be damn good at Guard. That folks is the ONLY reason MW isn't playing LG right now.....Money.
JStranger76 Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 I agree on the fact that TD's ego won't allow the move to guard, however I think MW is average at worst at tackle right NOW. Sure he is getting paid an obscene amount of money, but we could do A LOT worst at RT. Mike Williams is at worst one of the top 10 RT's in the game right now, if not top 5. The only clear cut guy better that I can think of right now is Willie Anderson of the Bengals actually. Oh and Jon Jansen when healthy. Sorry if I ruined anyone's day.
ICE Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 This is the last I am saying on this issue...I have talked to PRO Offensive linemen and they agree, The easiest move is from any other OL position to guard. One of these has seen WM play and agrees GUARD is his position. It doesn't matter TD Drafted him 4th. I will go with those who have played the positions oppinions.
renfruzetz Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 Marcus Price was a great pickup for us. He's a very good flip tackle and may start next year when JJ walks. He's also 32, a sixth rounder, and has started fewer NFL games than MW. I believe the slight possible increase of production at RT would be offset by the loss of chemistry which is why JMac didn't mess with the line in the pre season. (or maybe it was forced on him- I don't know) Depth at both tackles is also a big concern.
JStranger76 Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 It might not matter to you or me ICE, but I'm sure it does to TD. I never said don't move to guard, I just said it isn't like he has stunk up the place at tackle this year, like many are insisting. I think he would be awesome guard actually.
Cutting Drew With Dignity Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 Having talked several times with a former Bill that started Center, Guard and tackle 100451[/snapback] Did you and Ostrosky compare and toss poles after this discussion, or is that something you're only comfortable doing with Baab?
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted November 4, 2004 Author Posted November 4, 2004 It doesn't take several paragraphs to state the obvious, the move CAN Be made. It CAN be made on the fly. It does NOT take a ton of work or planning. 100451[/snapback] ICE, obviously feel free to reply or not as you wish, I'll try to keep this shorter because obviously in reading the many words of my previous posts you miss the main point as your "final" points do not reply to them at all. The main reason why the move you describe will take lots of time is not because it will take MW a lot of time to learn the new position (though I believe he will even this in no sure thing and is difficult to predict as speed of adoption is determined as much or more by desire and attiude as it is by expertise). The reason why this move will take a lot of time to sort out is because it strongly impacts the play at RT, LG and LT (particularly given Jennings record of getting nicked and the number of starts Price has gotten as a back-up). Why do you have such faith in Dylan McFarland? Have you seen something in his game which merits him backing up both tackle positions? Are you so certain that Jennings and Price will go through the remainder of season playing every moment of every game? If McFarland as the prime back-up at both tackle position isn't your plan is it to simply put MW whom you judge to be inadequate back in at tackle if there is an injury? After your juggle MW around and go back to him in case of an injury do you then feel fine about going back to Lawrence Smith you judge to be inadequate as you are replacing him? All this are merely the football implications and do not even get into whatever the mental aspects of player management are as these moves make definite statements about the inability of players like MW or Smith. I have little true idea what these impacts will be as I do not know these men and I certainly am not good at reading minds as you seem to be with your statements of certainty about TDs motivations.
Bear Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 This is the last I am saying on this issue... 100565[/snapback] Thanks.
Nanker Posted November 4, 2004 Posted November 4, 2004 1 Cincinnati Carter, Ki-Jana RB Penn State 2 Jacksonville Boselli, Tony T Southern California 3 Houston McNair, Steve QB Alcorn State 4 Washington Westbrook, Michael WR Colorado 5 Carolina Collins, Kerry QB Penn State 6 St. Louis Carter, Kevin DE Florida 7 Philadelphia Mamula, Mike DE Boston College 8 Seattle Galloway, Joey WR Ohio State 9 N.Y. Jets Brady, Kyle TE Penn State 10 San Francisco Stokes, J.J. WR UCLA 11 Minnesota Alexander, Derrick DE Florida State 12 Tampa Bay Sapp, Warren DT Miami 13 New Orleans Fields, Mark OLB Washington State 14 Buffalo Brown, Ruben G Pittsburgh That's the 1995 NFL Draft down to Buffalo. We needed OL help and drafted 14th. Who was picked between 4th and 14th that you would rather have had helping the OL? If Buffalo had the #4 pick in that draft - would they have drafted Ruben there? Probably they would have. To remind those who may have forgotten him, Ruben played LG and went to six or seven ProBowls. Mikey Willllllliams could probably pull his weight at LG. And for Christ's sake, TD brought in over 20 tackles from the end of last year to now and they've been trying to make centers and OGs out of them with zero success so far. The guys that are there now are really tackles. Fatass Mike would do no worse there than the bunch of bindlestiffs they've stuck in those spots. Tackle is not the worry. A friggin blocking TE, FB, and RB will help the pass protection. The RT spot should have someone more nimble than Mr. Personality has shown evidence of being. And, note to the board - we're not making the playoffs this year. Shhhh! Keep it down! It's a big secret and nobody around the league is supposed to know yet. Gee, I just bought a 4" China bristle brush and I started to paint my car. It's an expensive brush too - the best I could find, but I can't get it to stop making streaks. It must be a bad brush. I'm going to continue to use it and finish painting my car because: a.) I don't want to admit I made a mistake and got the wrong tool for the job. b.) What would the neighbors think after they saw me painting my car for hours then gave up on the brush? c.) There are simply no alternatives available to me. d.) I'm obstinate and dumb as a box of rocks to boot. e.) Who gives a stevestojan about painting a car, this is a football board.
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