Trent Edwards

[C.Biscuit97]

I'm saying Moss played A PART in Cassel's success (hell, so did Welker), last year, but McDaniels, Brady and Belicheat played a bigger part.

 

 

Come on Dean. you're a better poster than this. Now I gotta do some quick research.

 

Here is a quick view of QBs' career high in td passes with Moss (WM) and without Moss (WOM)

 

Brady: 50 WM, 28 WOM

 

Culpepper: 39 WM, 6 WOM

 

George: 23 in 10 starts (2.3 per game) WM, 29 in 16 starts (1.8)

 

Cunningham: 34 WM, 30 WOM

 

And obviously Cassel.

 

Moss is a douche and take plays off, but he is the most dangerous receiver maybe ever. The second you leave one on one coverage, no matter how good the corner is, it could be a touchdown. no receiver has ever had his speed, size, and leaping ability. He is combo of Hardy and Lee Evans. That is almost impossible to stop.

[C.Biscuit97]

You forgot Kevin Kolb ,who was drafted by the Eagles in the second rd.

Romo not drated

Kyle Orton 4th rd.

Jake Delhomme not drafted

Jeff Garcia not drafted

Kurt Warner not drafted.

Marc Bulger 6 rd draft choice.

Matt Hasselback 6 rd.

Tom Brady 6 rd.

Derek Anderson 6 rd.

Sage Rosnfels 4th rd.

Matt Schaub 3rd rd.

David Garrard 4th rd.

Matt Cassel 7th rd. Some very good QBs drafted or not drafted after 3rd rd. Plus Brady Quinn will be starting this year for somebody. Teams are ready to offer Cleveland a first for him. Matt Millan was the only G.M. who thought Stanton was worth a second round draft choice.

 

I don't really understand your point here. These guys all sat on the bench for a few years before they even palyed. Trent went right into the fire. That is a huge difference between sitting and learning for a few years, or playing in other pro leagues like some of this guys did.

[Hanoverbills]

Cassel sat 3 years behind the best QB in football. When he finally got to play, he got to play with the most dominant receiver in football who was the reason guys like Culpepper, Brady, and the over hill guys like Cunningham & Jeff George have by far their best seasons. Moss makes QBs.

 

Romo also sat 3 seasons before playing. When he did, he got to play with the 2nd best receiver of his generation and the league's best all around TE. Pretty nice situation for any QB to step into.

 

Warner played 5 seasons of pro football. Amazing experience. He then got to play with one of the most amazing offensive talent ever assembled. Obviously, he was a huge part of it but it was a great situation to set into.

 

Garcia played 3 or 4 seasons of pro football in Canada. got to play with TO in his absolute prime and Jerry Rice. Again, a great situation to set into.

 

Edwards had to play as a rookie with one legit receiving threat that opposing teams worry about. Not many QBs would be successful in that situation. For the first time in his career (though he still is at an earlier stage than all the QBs you named), he has at least a somewhat comparable cast. This is the season when we will know about Edwards. But not based off his first 2 seasons with Royal and Reed as a #2.

I quest Losman wasn't that bad, he only had one legit receiver threat.ha,ha,ha.

[Hanoverbills]

I don't really understand your point here. These guys all sat on the bench for a few years before they even palyed. Trent went right into the fire. That is a huge difference between sitting and learning for a few years, or playing in other pro leagues like some of this guys did.

Kyle Orton started as a rookie and the Bears went to the playoffs.

[The Dean]

Come on Dean. you're a better poster than this. Now I gotta do some quick research.

 

Here is a quick view of QBs' career high in td passes with Moss (WM) and without Moss (WOM)

 

Brady: 50 WM, 28 WOM

 

Culpepper: 39 WM, 6 WOM

 

George: 23 in 10 starts (2.3 per game) WM, 29 in 16 starts (1.8)

 

Cunningham: 34 WM, 30 WOM

 

And obviously Cassel.

 

Moss is a douche and take plays off, but he is the most dangerous receiver maybe ever. The second you leave one on one coverage, no matter how good the corner is, it could be a touchdown. no receiver has ever had his speed, size, and leaping ability. He is combo of Hardy and Lee Evans. That is almost impossible to stop.

 

 

QBs put up numbers with Moss...that's true. But the only team to win a SB with Moss was the Pats* and they won multiple SBs without him. Brady was a top QB before he showed up. Moss did nothing to make Brady better...he just helped him put up bigger numbers.

 

Also, Collins has had many years better than the ones with Oakland and Moss, where the team finished last in the division both years they played together.

 

Cassel didn't have a good year, and QB the Pats* to many wins because of Moss. Certainly Moss helped his total yards, but he didn't do that much to make him a better QB...just a QB with better stats. There is a BIG difference. Cassel was a good QB because he was on a good team, with a great coach, a fine QB coach and learned by sitting next to one of the best QBs in the game.l

 

Next you will be telling me that Fitzgerald made Warner a good QB.

 

Moss is a terrific WR, when he wants to be, and can help a QB's stats, no doubt about it. Make a QB great by himself? Not a chance.

[C.Biscuit97]

I quest Losman wasn't that bad, he only had one legit receiver threat.ha,ha,ha.

 

1) Peerless Price was a former 1,200 yard receiver and a much better #2 receiver than Reed. People had to respect his speed.

 

2) Losman was in his 4th season when he lost his job. Edwards is just starting his 3rd.

 

3) If you honestly can make an argument for JP being a good QB after last season, i think you may have lost your mind.

[C.Biscuit97]

Kyle Orton started as a rookie and the Bears went to the playoffs.

 

Yeah, it was Orton's 59.7 QB rating and 9 tds to 13 int that led the Bears to the playoffs. I'm sure the #1 ranked defense had nothing to do with it.

 

And Orton's performance was so impressive he got benched for the playoff game for Rex Grossman, who started 1 game all season.

[C.Biscuit97]

QBs put up numbers with Moss...that's true. But the only team to win a SB with Moss was the Pats* and they won multiple SBs without him. Brady was a top QB before he showed up. Moss did nothing to make Brady better...he just helped him put up bigger numbers.

 

Also, Collins has had many years better than the ones with Oakland and Moss, where the team finished last in the division both years they played together.

 

Cassel didn't have a good year, and QB the Pats* to many wins because of Moss. Certainly Moss helped his total yards, but he didn't do that much to make him a better QB...just a QB with better stats. There is a BIG difference. Cassel was a good QB because he was on a good team, with a great coach, a fine QB coach and learned by sitting next to one of the best QBs in the game.l

 

Next you will be telling me that Fitzgerald made Warner a good QB.

 

Moss is a terrific WR, when he wants to be, and can help a QB's stats, no doubt about it. Make a QB great by himself? Not a chance.

 

 

I don't know what more to tell you. I guess we jsut completely disagree. moss is the most dangerous receiver ever. He changes game plans. I'm sure if asked Welker, he tell you Moss deserves a tough of credit for the player he is. Moss run deep and take 2 or 3 guys with you, Wes run across the middle. Break.

 

And Fitz is a top 5 receiver right now, if not the best in the game. But he doesn't have the world class speed of Moss. Moss is a much faster version of Fitz. That's insane. And while I demonstrated the moss has made 5 QBs have career years, Fitz played with 3 QBs and one failed pretty badly (Leinart). Obviously, it's not Fitz's fault but Moss has never had a QB paly that poorly and that is because of Moss.

 

Side note: If I spent half the time i do looking up meaningless football stats actually doing school work, I'd probably have a 4.0.

[Hanoverbills]

Yeah, it was Orton's 59.7 QB rating and 9 tds to 13 int that led the Bears to the playoffs. I'm sure the #1 ranked defense had nothing to do with it.

 

And Orton's performance was so impressive he got benched for the playoff game for Rex Grossman, who started 1 game all season.

You said none of those qbs started as a rookie.I told you Orton started. I wonder who his starting recievers were his rookie year. I think Dick was his head coach and A- Train was starting runningback.

[Hanoverbills]

1) Peerless Price was a former 1,200 yard receiver and a much better #2 receiver than Reed. People had to respect his speed.

 

2) Losman was in his 4th season when he lost his job. Edwards is just starting his 3rd.

 

3) If you honestly can make an argument for JP being a good QB after last season, i think you may have lost your mind.

Dude I was joking and also Your right Price was former 1200 reciever who was dump by Atlanta and Dallas before Buffalo sign him ,because nobody else wanted him.

[Thurman#1]

Correlating wins and losses to the single player who touches the ball the most is far from a stretch.

 

 

 

It really is a stretch. Unless you think that Archie Manning was a worse QB than, say, Mark Rypien or Trent Dilfer or Jim McMahon.

 

About the only thing you can say is that it is ever so slightly less of a stretch than correlating wins and losses with, say, a defensive tackle. Or an LT. Etc.

 

Football is a team game. If you want to evaluate QBs, look at QB-related stats.

[Thurman#1]

1) Peerless Price was a former 1,200 yard receiver and a much better #2 receiver than Reed. People had to respect his speed.

 

2) Losman was in his 4th season when he lost his job. Edwards is just starting his 3rd.

 

3) If you honestly can make an argument for JP being a good QB after last season, i think you may have lost your mind.

 

 

 

Peerless Price had one good year. One.

 

Losman has played just over 30 games in his career. Edwards has played just over 20. In other words, Edwards has already had two-thirds of the games that Losman has.

 

Losman had one very good year, and got significantly better almost instantly when we opened up the offense halfway through that year. The next two years, we closed the offense up again and wondered why he didn't play well. And also took away the ability to audible, putting him in many situations he couldn't control. There are many totally legitimate arguments showing that JP may make a fine QB in the right situation. If you don't choose to believe them, fine. Doesn't mean they aren't legit arguments.

[ganesh]

QBs put up numbers with Moss...that's true. But the only team to win a SB with Moss was the Pats* and they won multiple SBs without him. Brady was a top QB before he showed up. Moss did nothing to make Brady better...he just helped him put up bigger numbers

 

Actually the Pats are yet to win a championship with Moss.

[Hanoverbills]

Actually the Pats are yet to win a championship with Moss.

And Moss only played in one Superbowl ,same as Owens.

[Philly McButterpants]

Funny how lots of posters state that Cutler's (Insert any QB except Trent here) won-loss record doesn't matter cuz he was saddled with a lousy defense . . . However, Trent sucks, won't develop, can't throw downfield, yada-yada-yada . . .

 

Where was Trent's outstanding defense? or O-Line for that matter? Why do I continue to read these posts and threads?

 

Trent -Haters: Face facts; the Bills FO likes Trent and thinks he has the tools and mental ability to be a successful QB in the league. So please stop wasting your time (and ours) thinking about trading for, or drafting another QB . . . it's not going to happen, at least not in this season . . .

[billsfreak]

QBs put up numbers with Moss...that's true. But the only team to win a SB with Moss was the Pats* and they won multiple SBs without him. Brady was a top QB before he showed up. Moss did nothing to make Brady better...he just helped him put up bigger numbers.

 

Also, Collins has had many years better than the ones with Oakland and Moss, where the team finished last in the division both years they played together.

 

Cassel didn't have a good year, and QB the Pats* to many wins because of Moss. Certainly Moss helped his total yards, but he didn't do that much to make him a better QB...just a QB with better stats. There is a BIG difference. Cassel was a good QB because he was on a good team, with a great coach, a fine QB coach and learned by sitting next to one of the best QBs in the game.l

 

Next you will be telling me that Fitzgerald made Warner a good QB.

 

Moss is a terrific WR, when he wants to be, and can help a QB's stats, no doubt about it. Make a QB great by himself? Not a chance.

I don't believe Moss has ever won a Super Bowl, he went to one and they got upset by the Giants.

[Magox]

Funny how lots of posters state that Cutler's (Insert any QB except Trent here) won-loss record doesn't matter cuz he was saddled with a lousy defense . . . However, Trent sucks, won't develop, can't throw downfield, yada-yada-yada . . .

 

Where was Trent's outstanding defense? or O-Line for that matter? Why do I continue to read these posts and threads?

 

Trent -Haters: Face facts; the Bills FO likes Trent and thinks he has the tools and mental ability to be a successful QB in the league. So please stop wasting your time (and ours) thinking about trading for, or drafting another QB . . . it's not going to happen, at least not in this season . . .

don't you know? since they can't use those excuses that you mentioned regarding defense and etc., now they say Trent can only beat teams with bad defenses! Then of course I shot that one down, and showed them that Cutler was only able to beat teams with bad defenses as well. Then yesterday, someone said, now get ready for this one:

 

Trent Edwards couldn't of started for many of the big College Football Programs

 

I guess it is easier to start as a QB in the NFL then it is for Michigan, UCLA, Tennessee or one of those college football programs.

 

classic

 

where will they go next?

[K-9]

Peerless Price had one good year. One.

 

Losman has played just over 30 games in his career. Edwards has played just over 20. In other words, Edwards has already had two-thirds of the games that Losman has.

 

Losman had one very good year, and got significantly better almost instantly when we opened up the offense halfway through that year. The next two years, we closed the offense up again and wondered why he didn't play well. And also took away the ability to audible, putting him in many situations he couldn't control. There are many totally legitimate arguments showing that JP may make a fine QB in the right situation. If you don't choose to believe them, fine. Doesn't mean they aren't legit arguments.

 

See, here's the problem I have with the "then they closed up the offense" argument: why would they DO that? Do you honestly think the same OC (Fairchild) who opened up the SAME offense in the second half of '06 and saw the SAME success we all saw, would DELIBERATELY change it BACK before the '07 season? Why would a coach DO that to his promising "named" STARTING QB going into the season? The answer: he didn't. In a nutshell, that OPENED offense everbody alludes to (going deep to Evans), was taken away by opposing DCs. Throw in the fact we didn't have enough complimentary offensive weapons and it was (and STILL is until proven otherwise) VERY easy for teams to stack the LOS, man-over Evans, send pressure and DARE Losman to beat them with another option. JP failed miserably. And assuming that Fairchild/Jauron really handcuffed him when it came to audibles, it's STILL on the QB to say "F-that" if he reads another option and makes plays. Sure the coaches aren't pleased at first but when a QB consistently PROVES he can do it, trust me, they don't mind. EVERY HC, OC, or assistant coach I've ever talked to, the ego-maniacs notwithstanding, WANTS his QB to take the reigns completely. But a QB, especially young ones, have to prove they're up to the task. JP didn't.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[The Dean]

Actually the Pats are yet to win a championship with Moss.

 

 

Of course...my bad. Thanks ganesh.

[Mr. WEO]

Obviously, it's not Fitz's fault but Moss has never had a QB paly that poorly and that is because of Moss.

 

Andrew Walter.