Per PFT: Bills Shopping Parrish

[Jerry Christ]

Roscoe ='s great field position

[bowery4]

I kind of agree with you Magox but kind of doubt there is a 3rd to be had for him.I think it is ok to shop anyone to see what you can do to improve. I wonder if the FO is as smart as that though.

 

How do you come up with this conclusion? Parrish is a great punt returner but as a wr he has shown himself to be useless/ Go look at the ststs and argue otherwise. He is a luxury item to carry on the roster as a single role player.

 

Honestly, so is TO if you think about it a one year role is kind of dumb and limited in some ways.

 

Not to mention the better field position he gives our drive starts (one of the most underrated stats in the game).

agree

 

Then it's irrelevant because they can't get a second rounder for him. Nobody is even suggesting that's possible. The Chiefs only got a fourth for Dante Hall a couple of years ago, that's probably what we'd be looking at.

 

And yes they can justify keeping a roster spot for him. They CAN'T keep one open for a ST-coverage only guy like Justin Jenkins or C.J. Hawthorne. But dressing 6 WR's is not uncommon, and that's assuming you dress Johnson AND Hardy for every game, which wouldn't be necessary since, with the signing of T.O., they are developmental prospects at this point.

 

And there's no apostrophe in "Bills".

J.J. is taking more rooster space IMO since he is also a one trick pony.

 

 

Who do you think is gonna get that roster spot? Tim Massaquoi as a 4th tight end? Some UDFA as an 8th linebacker? A backup fullback?

 

 

Oh, and

 

He's no more of a "luxury item" than Justin Jenkins, or Drew McIntyre, both of which were on the roster last year...except Parrish actually contributes. We have the best punt returner in football. The special teams are our saving grace. Parrish is one of the few players on this team the opposition GAME PLANS FOR. This is just ridiculous.

 

Co is one of our playmakers, we don't have many we should keep him unless we get another for him

[pBills]

Parrish does equal great field position. Unless they can get a great draft pick for him they should keep him. I don't like the idea of having McGee or Leodis playing double duty all of the time.

[Solomon Grundy]

There is no reason, barring injury, that McKelvin shouldn't be returning every punt, kick, free kick, pooch, etc in 2010. Love Roscoe, but he has not been a reliable receiver, we have an instant replacement in the return game, and you can bring another pick in

Why do most people on this board want to get rid of established NFL players for draft picks? It doesn't make sense to me. Why don't the Patsies trade Tom Brady to the Lions for the first pick overall? People, instead of trying to rid the Bills of Jason Peters and Roscoe Parrish (two of the best at there crafts) why not ask yourself why Chris Kelsay is on this roster making 8 million dollars a year? Roscoe Parrish is a game changer as a return man and if used correctly in the offense he could have value there too. Roscoe should primarily be used in motion or coming out of the backfield getting mismatched against a LB or where a CB isn't allowed to jam him off the line of scrimmage. Roscoe Parrish is Devin Hester of Chicago and the Bears aren't looking to trade him!

[BuffaloRebound]

Returning punts is a lot less taxing than returning kicks. Letting McKelvin return punts should not affect his ability to play defense. Kick returns are a different story, whether Roscoe is traded or not.

[Dibs]

Roscoe Parrish is simply the best at what he does...return punts. His career PR avg. is 0.1 yds. behind the all-time NFL leader. He is a full 2 yds. ahead of the next best active career numbers (the "legendary" Devin Hester). So bottom line is, if you trade him, it is almost a certainty that the Bills will never see another PR of his caliber.

 

So if you think having an average punt returner + a 3rd or 4th round pick is better than having the best ever, then pull the trigger.

 

I for one would never pull the plug on such an explosive threat, especially when grading his WR prowess in this running joke of an offense we've had for his entire career.

Who have you got in front of him? As far as I can tell, RPs career PR avg. is #1 of all time.....not #2.

 

Apart from all the great arguments in this thread showing how ridiculous it would be for us to trade him......the Bills have been generally garbage for years. As a fan, it is sooooo nice to be able to say that we have "The best of all time" on the roster. That alone fends off self mutilation thoughts when talking football with fans of more successful teams. Roscoe is worth more to me as a fan than any miss/hit/miss 2nd round pick.....or any 'solid' starter that we could trade him for.

[pBills]

Who have you got in front of him? As far as I can tell, RPs career PR avg. is #1 of all time.....not #2.

 

Apart from all the great arguments in this thread showing how ridiculous it would be for us to trade him......the Bills have been generally garbage for years. As a fan, it is sooooo nice to be able to say that we have "The best of all time" on the roster. That alone fends off self mutilation thoughts when talking football with fans of more successful teams. Roscoe is worth more to me as a fan than any miss/hit/miss 2nd round pick.....or any 'solid' starter that we could trade him for.

 

 

I agree. If they were dead set on trading him for whatever reason. They had better get a high draft pick for him.

[mrags]

You know, this may not be the Bills that want to move Parrish, but Parrish himself wanting more playing time as a WR, not just a punt returner. It has been said that he is not disgruntled, but we really do no know what he has been saying to the FO. He may indeed be jousting for more playing time. Johnson will be taking up the playing time in the slot after Reed, not Parrish. With Hardy spelling TO and Evans, Roscoe's playing time outside of Punt returner will be down to a couple plays a game designed for him, that everyone will know is coming by mid-season.

 

As one that does not go to refill my beer until after Roscoe has returned his punt, I will miss him greatly. None the less, I take nothing less than a third for him, and if I do not get it, then he takes up a roster spot as strictly a punt returner.

 

I beleive that ive heard in the past as well that Parrish isnt exactly disgruntled, but has stessed his frustration to be used more at WR. Maybe the Bills are expecting him to become disgruntled, maybe he already is and we just dont know it yet. Or maybe the Bills are granting him his wish to be traded to become more of a threat at WR. I think he is the best in the league as what he does well, however i dont think he can get seperation from even bad DB's at WR. Bobby April usually gets alot of love during the draft why do you think we have to sacrifice our LB's with guys like Ellison, Corto, DiGiorgio, Stamer, Bannen and any other scrub that cant make the roster other than a back up at best. I firmly believe that if Parrish is gone that April can find another diamond in the rough. Maybe he wont be as productive as Parrish, but if we could get another Steve Breaston in his place. Breaston was taken in the 5th round in 2007 as the 142nd overall. Or if we really want to argue about draft picks not accumulating to anything we can throw out that Brady was what a 5th or 6th rounder? Thats working out pretty well for the Pats.

[mrags]

I've been saying for months that exploring the trade possibilities for Parrish makes a lot of sense. That he was both expendable as a returner and really never has had much value as a WR, and every time I mentioned that McKelvin was more known coming out of college as a PR than KR, it just didn't really sink in. McKelvin is a NCAA record holding Punt Returner, he had 8 PR's for TD's in his college career and only 1 KR for TD. We know that Mcgee can obviously be the KR and Freddy Jackson is a very good backup as a PR as evidenced with his 16 yard per return average last year. For some reason, it just doesn't sink in with people and they disregard it completely. The typical comment I would recieve afterwards would be something like, "well McKelvin can't be a DB, PR, KR, he could get injured". It's like they totally disregarded what I had just said. Sometimes people just have a one track mind and disregard the facts. I understand that Parrish is a popular person, and he has added value in regards to our teams PR's, but we have a guy that may even be better. I'm sure when we all saw McKelvin start off the year as the Kick Returner last year, we would of never have thought that McKelvin could be as good if not better than Mcgee, who btw was the one of the best if not the best KR in the league. Well, we saw how that worked out. Now we are going to doubt that McKelvin can't do the job as the PR when he was the NCAA record holder for most college Return TD's.

 

It looks as if Tim Grahm believes it is logical as well. I mean, how couldn't it be?

 

A third rounder would be very good value. For those who say, "what is a third rounder going to do?" I mean is that even a real question? Maybe the third rounder becomes a good player, maybe he doesn't, just like any draft choice, which could even be said for the 1st overall pick. When a team makes decisions, not all the decisions that are made are for immediate returns. I'd be happy if that 3rd round choice ended up being a starter by his third year. Some people are too short sighted. At least Russ Brandon is taking the logical, pragmatic approach to this, and he is seeing what is out there.

 

My guess is that if a team wanted to trade for Roscoe for a draft choice that he would fetch somewhere in between a 4th-5th rounder. My hopes is that we package a deal that would include Roscoe and a 4th-5th rounder for Brian Waters. That would be what I would ideally want. If that deal doesn't materialize, and all we are offered is a draft choice, ideally a 3rd and maybe a 4th if it is somewhere in top half of the draft.

 

Totally agree with you on this. And what happens if Roscoe gets injured did anyone think of that?

[dogbyte]

Parrish was drafted to be the #2 receiver and has failed. He is not a slot receiver and besides a being a good ST what does he bring that other players can not do. We have other players that can handle PK. We did not win with him so lets see if someone wants him, if we get no good offers then we know what his worth is to other NFL teams.

[Magox]

Why do most people on this board want to get rid of established NFL players for draft picks? It doesn't make sense to me. Why don't the Patsies trade Tom Brady to the Lions for the first pick overall? People, instead of trying to rid the Bills of Jason Peters and Roscoe Parrish (two of the best at there crafts) why not ask yourself why Chris Kelsay is on this roster making 8 million dollars a year? Roscoe Parrish is a game changer as a return man and if used correctly in the offense he could have value there too. Roscoe should primarily be used in motion or coming out of the backfield getting mismatched against a LB or where a CB isn't allowed to jam him off the line of scrimmage. Roscoe Parrish is Devin Hester of Chicago and the Bears aren't looking to trade him!

If Devin Hester is doubling up on duties as a WR and PR then why can't McKelvin double on PR and DB?

 

Also you say it doesn't make sense? How can you say that? maybe you wouldn't make the trade, thats one thing, but to say that it doesn't make sense when we have a replacement that could be as good, I just don't see how you can reasonably say that.

[LynchMob23]

Two things:

 

1. April has said several times (one for me in particular at the local Nike COY clinic) that Roscoe and McKelvin see the field different - McKelvin needs about a second or two to read where the blocks are and where to attack the return while Roscoe just attacks the coverage and forces them to react to him. Both work, but Parrish's works for PR and Leodis moreso for KR.

If we're starting Leodis at CB, he'll probably share KR with McGee and we'll let someone else (if Parrish is traded) our PR.

 

Also, wrt Hester, he has been stated as being less effective as a KR/PR now that he's become a full time wideout.

 

2. This could be a favor to keep one of Drew's guys happy and help the Bills, since we've seemed to be on Team Rosenhaus a lot as of late....

[Arkady Renko]

What does Desean Jackson have that Roscoe doesn't? Is it a question of talent, scheme or something else?

[Dibs]

If Devin Hester is doubling up on duties as a WR and PR then why can't McKelvin double on PR and DB?

 

Also you say it doesn't make sense? How can you say that? maybe you wouldn't make the trade, thats one thing, but to say that it doesn't make sense when we have a replacement that could be as good, I just don't see how you can reasonably say that.

Actually.....as has been pointed out earlier in the thread.....Hester hasn't successfully doubled up on duties as a WR and PR.

In his first two seasons he didn't start a game as WR. In his third he only started 8 out of his 15 games. His PR average dropped massively from 15.5 to 6.2 when he was used more as a WR.

[Tipster19]

Two things:

 

1. April has said several times (one for me in particular at the local Nike COY clinic) that Roscoe and McKelvin see the field different - McKelvin needs about a second or two to read where the blocks are and where to attack the return while Roscoe just attacks the coverage and forces them to react to him. Both work, but Parrish's works for PR and Leodis moreso for KR.

If we're starting Leodis at CB, he'll probably share KR with McGee and we'll let someone else (if Parrish is traded) our PR.

 

Also, wrt Hester, he has been stated as being less effective as a KR/PR now that he's become a full time wideout.

 

2. This could be a favor to keep one of Drew's guys happy and help the Bills, since we've seemed to be on Team Rosenhaus a lot as of late....

 

Great points. I would like to say that the difference with Parrish compared to McKelvin, McGee and Hester is that he plays offense and the other 3 play defense. Once you return a punt or kick-off and you're a defensive player, you get to rest. I remember when the Chiefs tried to incorporate Dante Hall into the offense as a part time receiver and he pretty much failed. A lot had to do with him getting worn out. He was also doing both returns though.

[Kelly the Dog]

If Devin Hester is doubling up on duties as a WR and PR then why can't McKelvin double on PR and DB?

 

Also you say it doesn't make sense? How can you say that? maybe you wouldn't make the trade, thats one thing, but to say that it doesn't make sense when we have a replacement that could be as good, I just don't see how you can reasonably say that.

Because then we lose perhaps the league's best KR. McGee is probably a little too banged up to be a full-time KR these days although I am not sure about that. Fred Jackson MAY be a good KR but we have no real evidence of that.

 

I think the point is that we're not going to likely get a 2nd round pick for him and a 3rd round pick just doesn't seem to be enough. Especially considering the Bills don't really draft all that well.

[Peter]

Obviously, Welker got more looks. That might have something to do with the fact that he could get open, while Roscoe has failed to beat out any of our WRs and break into the starting lineup.

 

Welker also catches passes thrown his way. 75% this year, 77% last year, 67% from Joey Harrington in Miami. Parrish has gone 53%, 60%, and 58%. And don't blame the team - in 2006, he finished 4th on the team, besides such superstars as Peerless Price and Josh Reed, and after improving in 2007, he finished behind Evans, Reed, and Johnson in 2008. Robert Royal's numbers are comprable.

 

He's just not a starting wide receiver. He's got the raw speed to make some plays, but his value is almost entirely on special teams.

 

Let's put this in perspective. I have never said that Welker is not a good WR. Quite the contrary. In a sense, you are making my point for me. Billy B knew what the Dolphins had on their hands, plucked him away as a restricted free agent, and knows how to use him. It is very difficult to get full stats for the number of times a WR was a target. I have only been able to find a site that lists the top WR targets. Last year, for example, Welker was the target 149 times. TO was the target 140 times. Randy Moss was the target 125 times. The only Buffalo Bill on the list was Evans at 102 times.

 

Needless to say, over the years, Roscoe has not gotten nearly as many opportunities as these guys or even Josh Reed.

 

The Catch Percentage stat is easier to find.

 

Catch percentage for 2005-2008

 

2005 Catch Percentage

 

Roscoe 60%

Evans 53%

TO 51%

Moss 63%

Welker 56%

Reed 60%

 

2006 Catch Percentage

 

Roscoe 58%

Evans 60%

TO 56%

Moss 54%

Welker 67%

Reed 71%

 

2007 Catch Percentage

 

Roscoe 60%

Evans 49%

TO 57%

Moss 61%

Welker 77%

Reed 59%

 

2008 Catch Percentage

 

Roscoe 53%

Evans 62%

TO 50%

Moss 61%

Welker 75%

Reed 71%

 

Clearly, Roscoe can catch the ball and his career stats show that he can. He certainly is not on the field as much as the others and is often the third or fourth option on passing plays when he is on the field.

 

If JP Losman is your QB or your QB is in his first or second year, you certainly are not going to get as many opportunities if you are third or fourth on the QBs progression.

 

Here are my main reasons for wanting to keep Roscoe:

 

1. He is one of the best punt returners in the HISTORY of the NFL. Average drive start (to me) is one of the most important stats in the NFL.

 

2. If we are only going to get a fourth, fifth or even a third draft choice for him, what the hell is the point.

 

3. He has an extremely cap friendly deal.

 

4. Roscoe together with the other WRs that we can put on the field are going to cause huge headaches for opposing defensive coordinators. Who is going to cover whom? I cannot wait to see the mismatches.

 

5. Roscoe (and our offense's potential) is only limited by Schonert's imagination and the ability of our restructered offensive line to protect the QB.

 

6. Who are we going to have return punts? For those of you who played football, you know that returning punts is perhaps one of the most dangerous jobs in football. Do we really want McKelvin returning punts?!? I certainly don't want him returning punts more than a handful of times at most.

 

I can guaranty that, if we do trade him, especially to a team that would know how to use him, we will tremendously regret that we traded him. I can only imagine if Billy B got his hands on Roscoe. It would be a nightmare trying to cover Moss, Welker, and Roscoe. I would rather that we create the nightmares by having TO, Evans, Roscoe, and Reed.

[pBills]

1. He is one of the best punt returners in the HISTORY of the NFL. Average drive start (to me) is one of the most important stats in the NFL.

 

 

Agree with you 100%. The field position battle can be huge. And let's face it, our special teams have been amazing. Why take away from that when the other pieces are slowly coming around as well?

[Kelly the Dog]

Who have you got in front of him? As far as I can tell, RPs career PR avg. is #1 of all time.....not #2.

There is a guy who played in 1948-1956 or something that named Jim Cason who is at 14.1, and Roscoe is 14.0. It doesn't seem to me that most of the record books go back to the NFL in the 40s but I could be wrong about that.

 

14.0 for a year is great. 14.0 for a career is just plain sick.

 

We may need KRC to give us the definitive answer on "modern NFL football" and when records go back to. On the same pages of the pro football reference, the guys that played in the 40s are some names that I don't think I usually see in lists of records so it may be that Roscoe is considered the best all-time by the official NFL record book. I am just not sure.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/lead..._ret_career.htm

[BuffaloRebound]

Roscoe does not have enough power to offset his size on offense. Welker is much more powerful than Roscoe. Roscoe needs the space that 10 guys plus a punter running full speed for 50 yards creates to take advantage of his elite quickness and change of direction skills.