silvermike Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 OTher than height, what does Parrish have in common with Wes Welker? Welker's a possession guy who has reliable hands to convert third downs. Parrish is a speed threat who can try to make big plays. Parrish also has fewer catches in his career than Welker in either of his past two seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Cool, thanks for the numbers. I didn't mean it was a no brainer because of the money, moreso because of the fact we have other needs that, if left unfilled, would effect the team more than if we trade Parrish. He seems to be the guy who is most expendible who also would draw "attention" from other teams. Lets face it, we aren't going to get the same return for guys like Kelsay, or even Hardy, at this point. I like the guy as much as everyone else does, but looking at it from a business stand point, it just seems to be the logical thing to do, as unfortunate as it may be for Roscoe or the fans. I couldn't disagree more. Read the article Dave McBride posted about Sehorn. That's why we need Parrish. Getting rid of guys to free up roster spots, and Parrish is the first to go? Seriously? I could think of ten other guys I'd rather see go first (Jenkins, Hawthorne, Corto, Kelsay, Denney, Ellis, Bryan (wow, I just named almost all of our DE's...scary), Whittle, Hamdan, Dustin Fox, Alvin Bowen, Blake Costanzo, Teddy Lehman, P.K. Sam, Brandon Rodd ). By returning punts and kicks, Parrish gives almost "virtual depth" at CB since it saves them from almost certain injury. He's not a starter on offense anyhow so giving him a breather isn't a dilemma we ever have to face anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 OTher than height, what does Parrish have in common with Wes Welker? Welker's a possession guy who has reliable hands to convert third downs. Parrish is a speed threat who can try to make big plays. Parrish also has fewer catches in his career than Welker in either of his past two seasons. To be fair, Welker's production skyrocketed once he started playing for the Pats and with Moss and Brady (and then Cassel). We have no Billy B's running our offense. The fact that Billy B went out and got Welker from the Dolphins compared to the Bills now apparently wanting to trade Roscoe is a very good illustration why Billy B is so much better than anything that we have at OBD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I couldn't disagree more. Read the article Dave McBride posted about Sehorn. That's why we need Parrish. Getting rid of guys to free up roster spots, and Parrish is the first to go? Seriously? I could think of ten other guys I'd rather see go first (Jenkins, Hawthorne, Corto, Kelsay, Denney, Ellis, Bryan (wow, I just named almost all of our DE's...scary), Whittle, Hamdan, Dustin Fox, Alvin Bowen, Blake Costanzo, Teddy Lehman, P.K. Sam, Brandon Rodd ). By returning punts and kicks, Parrish gives almost "virtual depth" at CB since it saves them from almost certain injury. He's not a starter on offense anyhow so giving him a breather isn't a dilemma we ever have to face anyway. Not to mention the better field position he gives our drive starts (one of the most underrated stats in the game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 To be fair, Welker's production skyrocketed once he started playing for the Pat and with Moss and Brady (and then Cassel). We have no Billy B's running our offense. The fact that Billy B went out and got Welker from the Dolphins compared to the Bills now apparently wanting to trade Roscoe is a very good illustration why Billy B is so much better than anything that we have at OBD. Welker's last season in Miami nearly doubled up Roscoe's best in terms of catches, 67 to 35. And he had two seasons in Miami where his yardage totals topped Roscoe's best. Roscoe's also fumbled twice as much as Welker, despite how many fewer touches he's had in his career. So Welker's got better goods even if we're talking about the Joey Harrington, Gus Frerotte, and Nick Saban Welker, rather than the Tom Brady, Matt Cassel, and Bill Belichick Welker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Welker's last season in Miami nearly doubled up Roscoe's best in terms of catches, 67 to 35. And he had two seasons in Miami where his yardage totals topped Roscoe's best. Roscoe's also fumbled twice as much as Welker, despite how many fewer touches he's had in his career. So Welker's got better goods even if we're talking about the Joey Harrington, Gus Frerotte, and Nick Saban Welker, rather than the Tom Brady, Matt Cassel, and Bill Belichick Welker. How many times did the Dolphins throw to Welker and how many times did we throw to Roscoe?????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Reed is a FAR better blocker than Parrish and is better on third downs. But it doesn't matter, this isn't between the two of them - there are 53 roster spots to go around, plently for both. We'll dress 5-6 WR's per game, so it's not an issue. Yeah, except for the fact that the going rate is a FOURTH, not a SECOND. "Waste of a roster spot." You have no idea what you're talking about. Chris Ellis is a waste of a roster spot. C.J. Hawthorne is a waste of a roster spot. Jon Corto is a waste of a roster spot. The best PR in the league cannot be classified as such. Read my earlier posts... I have never said under value the guy. IMO if they do not et at least a #2 for him then let him stay on the roster to fight out a spot. But, keep in mind the Bill's can't justify keeping a roster spot for him as a wr the guy sucks as a wr. When the Bills added TO ads a WR then Parrish becomes a player in question. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 How many times did the Dolphins throw to Welker and how many times did we throw to Roscoe?????????????? Obviously, Welker got more looks. That might have something to do with the fact that he could get open, while Roscoe has failed to beat out any of our WRs and break into the starting lineup. Welker also catches passes thrown his way. 75% this year, 77% last year, 67% from Joey Harrington in Miami. Parrish has gone 53%, 60%, and 58%. And don't blame the team - in 2006, he finished 4th on the team, besides such superstars as Peerless Price and Josh Reed, and after improving in 2007, he finished behind Evans, Reed, and Johnson in 2008. Robert Royal's numbers are comprable. He's just not a starting wide receiver. He's got the raw speed to make some plays, but his value is almost entirely on special teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Read my earlier posts... I have never said under value the guy. IMO if they do not et at least a #2 for him then let him stay on the roster to fight out a spot. But, keep in mind the Bill's can't justify keeping a roster spot for him as a wr the guy sucks as a wr. When the Bills added TO ads a WR then Parrish becomes a player in question. . . Then it's irrelevant because they can't get a second rounder for him. Nobody is even suggesting that's possible. The Chiefs only got a fourth for Dante Hall a couple of years ago, that's probably what we'd be looking at. And yes they can justify keeping a roster spot for him. They CAN'T keep one open for a ST-coverage only guy like Justin Jenkins or C.J. Hawthorne. But dressing 6 WR's is not uncommon, and that's assuming you dress Johnson AND Hardy for every game, which wouldn't be necessary since, with the signing of T.O., they are developmental prospects at this point. And there's no apostrophe in "Bills". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Then it's irrelevant because they can't get a second rounder for him. Nobody is even suggesting that's possible. The Chiefs only got a fourth for Dante Hall a couple of years ago, that's probably what we'd be looking at. And yes they can justify keeping a roster spot for him. They CAN'T keep one open for a ST-coverage only guy like Justin Jenkins or C.J. Hawthorne. But dressing 6 WR's is not uncommon, and that's assuming you dress Johnson AND Hardy for every game, which wouldn't be necessary since, with the signing of T.O., they are developmental prospects at this point. And there's no apostrophe in "Bills". Fair enough on the Bill's comment. Moving beyond this, if the Bills can't get better than a second for Parrish then turndown the trade and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 And yes they can justify keeping a roster spot for him. They CAN'T keep one open for a ST-coverage only guy like Justin Jenkins or C.J. Hawthorne. But dressing 6 WR's is not uncommon, and that's assuming you dress Johnson AND Hardy for every game, which wouldn't be necessary since, with the signing of T.O., they are developmental prospects at this point. Assuming Parrish has a negligible value on offense, how much are his special teams contributions worth? The top five overall special teams units (according to football outsiders) were Buffalo, Oakland, Cleveland, San Francisco, and Chicago, earning a total of no playoff appearances. Parrish led the league in PR average, at 15.3, which is a truly remarkable figure. The middle of the road guys were averaging about 10 - so that's 5 yards per return, over his 21 returns - a bonus 105 yards, or about 6.5 per game. And that's even discounting for the fact that Parrish's numbers are likely inflated by April's coaching and the team's solid blockers. Is that worth a 4th rounder? I'm not sure. But it's definitely not worth a 3rd or a 2nd, and if we get that offer, we need to jump on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 We haven't made the trade yet, but this is what you get with an inexperienced FO and a Head Coach that has zero pull. I also think starting field position is highly underrated and its not Roscoe Parish's fault we couldn't do anything with the good field position when he gave it to us, how about bringing in an experienced OC so we are not making these kinds of sacrafices. Now that might make sense, but Naww, One step forward, two steps back, lets waste Roscoe Parish on an unproven draft pick. I guarantee you Bobby April is asking Dick Jauron to prevent a trade involving Parish from happening and there's probably not a darn thing Jauron can do about it. To feel like you have to go into the draft using one of your best players as trade bait just so you can succeed is just another sign of inept, inexperienced management in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 We haven't made the trade yet, but this is what you get with an inexperienced FO and a Head Coach that has zero pull...I guarantee you Bobby April is asking Dick Jauron to prevent a trade involving Parish from happening and there's probably not a damn thing Jauron can do about it. Where exactly are you getting this from? You think Brandon ignores Dick Jauron? Jauron has a ton of influence on this team's personnel moves, it's why we've gotten into the mess we're in. Brandon doesn't even have the title of GM! And believe me, Bobby April gets listened to - we consistently draft and acquire players for his special teams units, and we keep roster spots for a number of players - including Parrish - whose main contribution is on special teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufcomments Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 one question..... How does getting rid of the best punt man in the game make you team better?? Trading Jason Peters will make your team better in the long run. Trading Parrish for a draft pick does not. If they trade Parrish for KCs Walter im fine with that. but anything else fugg it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Jauron, zero pull? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Obviously, Welker got more looks. That might have something to do with the fact that he could get open, while Roscoe has failed to beat out any of our WRs and break into the starting lineup. Welker also catches passes thrown his way. 75% this year, 77% last year, 67% from Joey Harrington in Miami. Parrish has gone 53%, 60%, and 58%. And don't blame the team - in 2006, he finished 4th on the team, besides such superstars as Peerless Price and Josh Reed, and after improving in 2007, he finished behind Evans, Reed, and Johnson in 2008. Robert Royal's numbers are comprable. He's just not a starting wide receiver. He's got the raw speed to make some plays, but his value is almost entirely on special teams. Teams are very scared of him and you often see it. They often kick OB or high and short so he fair catches. I think he's worth 25 extra yards a game if you average five punts or so. Easily. Not 6.5. And if you add 25 yards a game to a 1000 yd per year RB or WR, he's about a 1400 yard guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Jauron, zero pull? Really? OK,OK, Zero's probably over doing it, geesh, I'll give him 1% pull and Ralph Wilson gets the other 99% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Teams are very scared of him and you often see it. They often kick OB or high and short so he fair catches. I think he's worth 25 extra yards a game if you average five punts or so. Easily. Not 6.5. And if you add 25 yards a game to a 1000 yd per year RB or WR, he's about a 1400 yard guy. There's no way Roscoe Parrish is worth 25 yards per game more than an average punt returner! He didn't even have 400 total return yards on the season! I agree that he earns us a few more yards by being a threat than show up on his stat sheet, so maybe his total value is about 400 yards on special teams. But that's still not going to be 100 yards more than an average guy's contribution: and Fred Jackson may well be above average anyway. He averaged slightly more yards per return than Parrish last year anyway, though of course, his 7 returns aren't really enough to judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 OK,OK, Zero's probably over doing it, geesh, I'll give him 1% pull and Ralph Wilson gets the other 99% flirt.gif You think Ralph Wilson is running Roscoe Parrish out the door? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Assuming Parrish has a negligible value on offense, how much are his special teams contributions worth? The top five overall special teams units (according to football outsiders) were Buffalo, Oakland, Cleveland, San Francisco, and Chicago, earning a total of no playoff appearances. Parrish led the league in PR average, at 15.3, which is a truly remarkable figure. The middle of the road guys were averaging about 10 - so that's 5 yards per return, over his 21 returns - a bonus 105 yards, or about 6.5 per game. And that's even discounting for the fact that Parrish's numbers are likely inflated by April's coaching and the team's solid blockers. Is that worth a 4th rounder? I'm not sure. But it's definitely not worth a 3rd or a 2nd, and if we get that offer, we need to jump on it. How much of his lack of offensive contribution is due to the offense's ineptitude? Some, I'd wager. The fact that the teams with the best return games didn't make the playoffs is absurdly irrelevant. If you think Devin Hester didn't help Chicago get to the Super Bowl a few years ago I'll give you my address so you can send me some of the drugs you're on. And the other posters are correct. It's not even just about the averages, but it's about special teams coaches game planning around a guy like Parrish. There is no way Fred Jackson - if signed - is anywhere near Parrish in return ability. And McKelvin is our starting CB. This is such a horrible idea it's not even funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts