VOR Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Regarding: - LT) Peters isn't the best OL in the NFL, therefore his demands to be paid like he is are unreasonable. I believe a $10M/year contract is fair, and if he doesn't think so, and instead of seeing him hold-out and/or give a half-hearted effort, the Bills need to cut bait. And judging by Modrak's words, Demetrius Bell at this spot might be what we'll see and might be just fine. - LG) I agree that putting anyone here would at worst duplicate the nothing that Dockery offered over the past 2 years. That's not saying the position would be a strength, just that Dockery is no loss. - C) Hangartner wasn't let go. The Panthers literally have no money to sign anyone after franchising Peppers and giving Gross his new deal. They had to cut starting CB Ken Lucas and need a replacement for him, but can do nothing at present. Much less sign guys who were backups for them. - RG) Butler missed 3 games last year, just like Peters did. - RT) Walker is a good player. He's not great, but he's effective. What will help the Bills out beyond the O-line is TO drawing attention away from the other receivers and away from the LOS, and Trent getting rid of the ball in a timely fashion.
Gordio Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 The following is a very short synopsis of the Bills starting OL..... 2008 LT) Jason Peters: Off year but easily the best player on the OL and the team. LG) Derrick Dockery: Average OG. Seemed to lack effort at times. OC) Melvin Fowler/Duke Preston: Pushed around at will/Ineffective at all phases of position RG) Brad Butler: Good player imo but frequently injured. RT) Langston Walker: A little above average but gets beat around the edge a bit too often. This OL, while not good, had enough pieces in place to be one of the better ones, lack of depth notwithstanding. So, where are we now? LT) Jason Peters: Likely to be traded. LG) None OC) Geoff Hangartner: Should be an upgrade but why was he let go of so easily? RG) Butler RT) Walker Is this really what you guys want? Does anyone think that the Bills will field an adequate, let alone good OL if Peters is traded? Even if Peters stays, we need an early round Guard to plug in on the left, and at least depth at OC. Chambers is very agile and is a good backup but let's be clear.....if he was viewed as anything more, a team would have offered him a 40 million dollar contract to be their LT. Please consider that even if Peters stays, we have potential problems. Again, Butler is injured as often as Trent, Walker weighs 2 tons, and makes silly, idiotic videos when perhaps he should be working out. We haven't seen Hangartner, and rookies are a coin toss. Now, throw in a front office who all but ignores the OL on draft day, and we are sitting here in April, talking about getting rid of the most talented player we have and for what? A first round pick that Jauron will use on a safety? In summary, for the Bills to even consider trading Peters, both of these factors should apply: 1) He absolutely demands a trade and refuses to play in Buffalo. 2) The Bills are offered something in the range of the Cutler deal. I like the idea of an extra first round pick in 2010, especially since Dick Levy will almost certainly be gone. Other than that, how about we give him the cash, draft Oher, and give him some as well. Jmo. As usual Bill you make some good points. With that being said, it is looking more & more like the bridge has been burned & Peters just does not want to be in Buffalo. I do not care how talented you are, you just can not have a guy like this in the lockerroom. I said last year & I think you could agree with me that it was a mistake to bring Losman back. Losman lost his job & clearly wanted a new start. They brought him back anyways. This was a mistake. Now noone in their right mind would ever confuse the talent between a guy like Losman & a guy like Peters & the importance that they mean to the Bills, but the point is if a guy does not want to be here then management should get them out of here, especially if you are going to get fair market value. Let me ask you something, say they keep peters, he holds out again all summer, is not ready to play at the start of the summer & his play throughout suffers because of the holdout. Are the Bills really better holding onto him. If you get the right deal(& by right deal I mean minimum a first & a 3rd) tough decision but I say you have to take it. if that happens, my guess is they will go Andre Smith with the 11th pick & focus on defense with their next 2-3 picks. I know alot of people have been sour on Smith & with good reason, but this guy does have talent. Forget about the other crap & watch the game film. He was the best lineman in the country for the last 2 years playing in the toughest conference in the country. If he is there at 11 I say you have to grab him if peters is traded.
Ramius Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 When have they "loaded up" on the OL in the draft? Both lines have to be addressed in a bad way and since taking a guard or center at #11 would be ridiculous, the smart play is a DE at #11(Brown, Jackson, Orapko or Maybin), OL(guard and center?) with picks 2 and 3, followed by a OLB or TE in round 4. I'll agree with both you and Rich. Given the apparent "depth" of positions in the draft, the most wise choice in a couple of weeks would be to go DE with the #11 and then interior OL with the #42. I am totally against drafting a G or C at the #11 spot. If we cant get a DE or DT, i'd rather see a OLB than G/C.
Bill from NYC Posted April 8, 2009 Author Posted April 8, 2009 Regarding: - LT) Peters isn't the best OL in the NFL, therefore his demands to be paid like he is are unreasonable. I believe a $10M/year contract is fair, and if he doesn't think so, and instead of seeing him hold-out and/or give a half-hearted effort, the Bills need to cut bait. And judging by Modrak's words, Demetrius Bell at this spot might be what we'll see and might be just fine. - LG) I agree that putting anyone here would at worst duplicate the nothing that Dockery offered over the past 2 years. That's not saying the position would be a strength, just that Dockery is no loss. - C) Hangartner wasn't let go. The Panthers literally have no money to sign anyone after franchising Peppers and giving Gross his new deal. They had to cut starting CB Ken Lucas and need a replacement for him, but can do nothing at present. Much less sign guys who were backups for them. - RG) Butler missed 3 games last year, just like Peters did. - RT) Walker is a good player. He's not great, but he's effective. What will help the Bills out beyond the O-line is TO drawing attention away from the other receivers and away from the LOS, and Trent getting rid of the ball in a timely fashion. I will address your points one at a time..... 1) If Peters is made the highest paid LT in the NFL (and I am hoping that he settles for less), this will only be the case for a month or so. I don't think that the highest paid thing is much of an issue. 2) LG should improve, but it will probably require Jauron to devorte draft resources to blockers, something he is little known for. 3) I love your comments about Hangartner and hope that you are carrect. We need a physical Center. 4) I focused on Butler all season. Having no way to prove it, I make the case that he played hurt a lot. While this is quite admirable, he does seem to have a history of being injured in 08, and 07 as well iirc. Just something to watch. 5) Agreed about Walker, although I get the feeling that he would be a better player if he was in better condition, but this too is ultimately speculation.
LabattBlue Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 I'll agree with both you and Rich. Given the apparent "depth" of positions in the draft, the most wise choice in a couple of weeks would be to go DE with the #11 and then interior OL with the #42. I am totally against drafting a G or C at the #11 spot. If we cant get a DE or DT, i'd rather see a OLB than G/C. I'd have no problem with Cushing or Matthews at #11 if the DE the Bills want is no longer there.. Ellison is a career backup. We need an impact player at the OLB position.
GG Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Perfectly fine Gerry? Despite having 2 very good backs, I had little confidence on 3rd and short. We also have a young quarterback in what might be a make or break season. Should we trade his Left Tackle and concentrate on defense? It is no secret that I never thought Losman was a good quarterback, but the 2006 draft heally hurt him. Here was a young, struggling quarterback and remember what they did in the draft with their first 5 picks? They traded one away, and took 3 defensive backs and a DT. This was unacceptable and it resulted in losses, which will continue without strong lines. The offense performed perfectly fine in the games where Peters was absent. To your point, the short yardage conversions did not improve with Peters in the line up. OTOH, the defensive effort has been far more lacking, especially on the DL. If you believe that Peters has created an irrevocable rift with Ralph Wilson, then the team has a LT hole along with a DL hole. Looking at the remaining available bodies in FA vs the draft, it would seem wise to go DL in the draft and pick up OL in FA.
R. Rich Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 A pass rush doesn't have to come from the D-line alone. True, you can get it from the LBs (4 last year, all from Kawika Mitchell; a whopping 16% of the total team production) and the DBs (4 last year, 1 each from Whitner, Scott, Youboty, and Wilson; another 16% of the total). Without an O-line upgrade, the offense has absolutely nothing to fall back on. Right now they have 3.5 starters for 5 slots. You're preaching to the choir. I only suggest that the Bills don't forsake any/all other positions for the sake of the O line. To say that we're a couple O line starters away from contention is flat out wrong. Not good enough... ...on either side of the ball.
R. Rich Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Almost all of the defensive ends this year seem small, and perhaps unsuited for the idiotic defense that Jauron, ever the loser, clings to. If there is a modern day Simeon Rice out there, talk to me. Notice how I didn't say DE specifically? They need a pass rush, whether they get it from a situational player, an OLB who can bring the heat from the outside (aside from Kawika Mitchell's terrifying 4 sack total, that is), or from a down lineman.
Leonidas Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Notice how I didn't say DE specifically? They need a pass rush, whether they get it from a situational player, an OLB who can bring the heat from the outside (aside from Kawika Mitchell's terrifying 4 sack total, that is), or from a down lineman. You do know how the Tampa 2 is run, right?
Magox Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Other than the QB, the Lines in my view are the most important area's to address. Extending Stroud's contract will help solidify our run defense for the next four years, and I think that was an important step for our defense. I still believe that we are lacking anywhere from 2-3 starters on the defensive line. Kyle Williams in my view would be an excellent rotational DT, but not quite at the level that I'd like to see as our starter, but none the less it isn't the most pressing need. DE, on the other hand is a very pressing need. Schobel at this stage is a question mark, I have hope that he will return to his typical 10 sack level, but at this stage it is just hope. The other side with Kelsay and Denney, these guys are not starting material, but would both serve well as rotational DE's, but paying $5 Million a year for Kelsay is insane. Regarding the offensive line. Well, there are so many question marks at this point. Will Peters resign? Who is going to play LG? Right now there is no clear picture, hell even on the right side it isn't clear, we have heard rumours of Butler going over to the Left and Even Walker playing the LT. The best solution in my view would be to keep Peters. Keeping Peters maintains continuity not just at the LT position, but would allow Butler and Walker to stay on the right side. Hangartner, well, we have heard that he will be an upgrade, and we will see if that is the case or not. Demetrius Bell is another wild card, up to now, all we have heard is that he is promising, but other than that, we have seen nothing. So I really am not too hopeful that it this stage he would be ready. Some suggest that he could move to the Guard position, I think that would be a terrible idea, what I have heard is that strength is one of his biggest weaknesses and at the Guard position, more so than any other, you need strength. So to say what is our most pressing need right now is difficult to say. It pretty much all depends on what happens with Peters. If Peters resigns, then our most pressing need is DE. If Peters gets traded then LT becomes the biggest priority. personally I'd like to see LT Peters LG Duke Robinson/Levitre 2nd round pick C Hangartner RG Butler RT Walker or LT Peters LG Hangartner C Eric Wood RG Butler RT Walker
R. Rich Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 You do know how the Tampa 2 is run, right? No. What's that?
stuckincincy Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 No. What's that? Slower dbs 20 yards back from the LOS and faster dbs only ten yards back?
BuffaloBill Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Offensive lines only need to be adequate if everyone around them is good. The Superbowl winner and loser both prove that. The skill positions are set; its all up to Edwards. I would argue the notion that "adequate" is good enough. Warner is unique in his abilities and release - Trent is not even close. Add to the situation that in BUffalo weather conditions a QB can't carry the team alone - you have to have a running game.
LynchMob23 Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 This is Jauron's draft history of the Bears (we already know Buffalo). Each year, he got at least one lineman and many times multiple. If I could I'd look for the FAs acquired, but Ted Washington after we released him was a big part of his COTY defense. Did he draft DBs? Yes. But other than Andy Reid, very few don't every year. 2002 - Chicago Bears Rd Sel # Player Position School 1 29 Marc Colombo T Boston College 3 72 Roe Williams CB Tuskegee 3 93 Terrence Metcalf G Mississippi 4 104 Alex Brown DE Florida 5 140 Bobby Gray DB Louisiana Tech 5 165 Bryan Knight DE Pittsburgh 6 199 Adrian Peterson RB Georgia Southern 6 203 Jamin Elliott WR Delaware 6 210 Bryan Fletcher TE UCLA 2001 - Chicago Bears Rd Sel # Player Position School 1 8 David Terrell WR Michigan 2 38 Anthony Thomas RB Michigan 3 68 Mike Gandy G Notre Dame 4 103 Karon Riley DE Minnesota 5 138 Bernard Robertson G Tulane 7 208 John Capel -- Florida 2000 - Chicago Bears Rd Sel # Player Position School 1 9 Brian Urlacher MLB New Mexico 2 39 Mike Brown FS Nebraska 3 69 Dez White WR Georgia Tech 3 87 Dustin Lyman TE Wake Forest 4 125 Reggie Austin DB Wake Forest 6 170 Frank Murphy RB Kansas State 6 174 Paul Edinger K Michigan State 7 223 James Cotton DE Ohio State 7 254 Michael Green SAF Northwestern State-Louisiana 1999 - Chicago Bears Rd Sel # Player Position School 1 12 Cade McNown QB UCLA 2 48 Russell Davis DE North Carolina 3 66 Rex Tucker T Texas A&M 3 71 D'Wayne Bates WR Northwestern 3 78 Marty Booker WR Louisiana-Monroe 4 106 Warrick Holdman LB Texas A&M 4 111 Rosevelt Colvin LB Purdue 5 143 Jerry Wisne G Notre Dame 5 144 Khari Samuel LB Massachusetts 5 147 Jerry Azumah DB New Hampshire 6 184 Rashard Cook DB USC 7 221 Sulecio Sanford WR Middle Tennessee State 7 253 Jim Finn RB Pennsylvania
Leonidas Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 No. What's that? Ignoring your sarcasm, the pressure generally has to come from the defensive line as your linebackers drop back into their zones. Tampa was successful with this because of Simeon Rice and Warren Sapp. Indy was/is successful with this because of Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis. We are relying on...Chris Kelsay and Ryan Denney.
LynchMob23 Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 You do know how the Tampa 2 is run, right? Not trying to jump in, but we actually run more cover 3 and 4 than we do the Tampa 2. Do we employ a primarily one gap based defense? Yes - but that isn't necessarily screaming Tampa 2. Eagles and any Wade 3-4 runs a one gap - the Tampa 2 just refers to the coverage behind the rush.
nucci Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Slower dbs 20 yards back from the LOS and faster dbs only ten yards back? You forgot about not pressuring the QB.
Leonidas Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Not trying to jump in, but we actually run more cover 3 and 4 than we do the Tampa 2. Do we employ a primarily one gap based defense? Yes - but that isn't necessarily screaming Tampa 2. Eagles and any Wade 3-4 runs a one gap - the Tampa 2 just refers to the coverage behind the rush. Well, a standard cover 2 might refer to the coverage, but the Tampa 2 - when it is employed - refers to the entire scheme and doesn't generally employ blitzes. And I'm not surprised that we use cover 3, but when do we use cover 4 besides 3rd and very long??
R. Rich Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Ignoring your sarcasm, the pressure generally has to come from the defensive line as your linebackers drop back into their zones. Okay. Tampa was successful with this because of Simeon Rice and Warren Sapp. I'd love for the Bills to have a big guy in the middle of their defense that can collapse the pocket and generally cause havoc in the opponents' backfield. Maybe they can bring in a guy like that; a trade of some kind, perhaps? As for Rice, yeah he was okay, but kinda smallish for a D lineman. Smallish DEs that can get upfield don't stand much of a chance in today's NFL... Indy was/is successful with this because of Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis. ...Oops. We are relying on...Chris Kelsay and Ryan Denney. Agreed. When your top pass rushing DL has as many sacks as a LB who is not known for rushing the passer (Mitchell and Denney both had an underwhelming 4 sacks last season), you need to upgrade.
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