Bills were in serious discussions with Philly about Peters

[The Dean]

I assumed he meant during their primes. Pace makes $5M/year, and Ogden is probably collecting social security. Sorry if I didn't clarify my statement - I meant Peters doesn't touch either of them when they were in the prime of their respective careers. I thought that was obvious.

 

 

 

 

So since your argument hit a dead end, you're going to just be an !@#$? Nice way to have a discussion.

 

Orlando Pace is a future Hall of Famer. So is Ogden (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...&id=3433434). Are we really having this discussion, who's better: Jason Peters or Pace/Ogden in their prime???

 

Peters is just approaching his prime...so who knows?

[Leonidas]

Again, that train has left the station. The Bills are already offering him $8 million plus. He's not getting the offer because he held out. He's getting the offer because they think he's great. The negotiation is tougher because he held out. I think the contracts to Evans and Stroud show other players that it is easier to a big deal done with the Bills by NOT holding out. Of course, the message every player should get is: be great on the field, and you will be rewarded.

 

Actually, the train is still very much there, and the Bills have the leverage. I'd feel a lot better if they signed another lineman or two to give them even more leverage though.

 

Teams like NE and Philly take a hard-line approach against this type of behavior because it breeds more behavior like it. Trade him and move on or you're guaranteed to have more problems like this in the future. If you get a great offer, you take it. Don't be like Marvin Lewis last year who turned down two first round picks from Washington (idiots) for Ocho Cinco.

 

 

Welcome to the world of professional sports. If Peters holds out again after a couple of years (a very real possibility), the team can go one of a few ways, including:

 

They can do what they always did for Bruce Smith, and keep paying him more...IF he plays at the highest level.

 

They can trade him, or cut him (contracts only work one-way in the NFL).

 

Because his holding out again has to be considered a possibility, the Bills need to be careful how the contract is structured, and with the size of the signing bonus. They should also be developing his replacement, just in case. If they had a replacement now, this whole situation could play out much differently.

 

If the Bills settled on $43M over 6 years with clauses concerning mandatory workout payments/fines and incentives for not giving up sacks then I would be all for it. But this unconditional $8-9M/year is bull sh--.

[Leonidas]

Peters is just approaching his prime...so who knows?

 

Pace didn't allow a single sack in his last two years at Ohio State and was a heisman finalist at tackle!!!!

 

Ogden allowed two sacks his final two seasons and had his jersey retired by UCLA.

 

Peters was an undrafted TE out of Arkansas who's had one solid year at LT. This isn't even a discussion.

[The Dean]

Pace didn't allow a single sack in his last two years at Ohio State and was a heisman finalist at tackle!!!!

 

Ogden allowed two sacks his final two seasons and had his jersey retired by UCLA.

 

Peters was an undrafted TE out of Arkansas who's had one solid year at LT. This isn't even a discussion.

 

 

How are their college careers relevant to this discussion? If anything, you should understand that, as a college TE, Peters may take a couple of extra years, to his his prime as a LT.

[Magox]

Pace didn't allow a single sack in his last two years at Ohio State and was a heisman finalist at tackle!!!!

 

Ogden allowed two sacks his final two seasons and had his jersey retired by UCLA.

 

Peters was an undrafted TE out of Arkansas who's had one solid year at LT. This isn't even a discussion.

Ogden led the league in sacks allowed twice in his career

 

What do you think about that?

[Magox]

How are their college careers relevant to this discussion? If anything, you should understand that, as a college TE, Peters may take a couple of extra years, to his his prime as a LT.

If anything, that is a supporting argument for Peters. Shows that his learning curve was made up very quickly, and that he has tremendous upside.

[Leonidas]

Well apparently sacks allowed aren't relevant according to TSW. What stats should I use, pancake blocks??

 

Look, the college comparison was just used to show that Pace and Ogden were pure LT's that are almost certainly going to the HOF. If Peters plays the way he played last year he'll start somewhere (hell, Mike Gandy is a starter in this league), but barring a decade of playing at Pace/Ogden levels (i.e. better than he played in '07) he's nowhere near them.

 

I think that's about all that can be said about this.

[Armchair GM]

See, this is all presumption. No one, outside of the organization, the player and maybe the agent knows if this is true. This is show business, not show friends.

 

Of course it's presumption and speculation...that IS what this board is built upon....right!? If we all knew everything that was ACTUALLY going on at OBD, we wouldn't have anything to talk about!!! Good post...like Madden, you are the master of the obvious.

[The Dean]

Well apparently sacks allowed aren't relevant according to TSW. What stats should I use, pancake blocks??

 

Look, the college comparison was just used to show that Pace and Ogden were pure LT's that are almost certainly going to the HOF. If Peters plays the way he played last year he'll start somewhere (hell, Mike Gandy is a starter in this league), but barring a decade of playing at Pace/Ogden levels (i.e. better than he played in '07) he's nowhere near them.

 

I think that's about all that can be said about this.

 

 

You are now arguing in circles. The only reason Peters play is so severely criticized last year, is because of sacks. But, all of a sudden sacks no longer matter for Ogden, because he was good in college? WTF is that all about?

 

The simply fact that Peters has come so far, so fast, in the NFL is a credit to his talent, and work ethic. Nobody knows how high this guy's top end is.

 

This idea that Peters will play at another position somewhere else, next year., is ridiculous. He won't be traded unless he gets a contract somewhere else and nobody is going to pay him $10 mill to be a guard. In fact, the Bills wouldn't be offering him $8 million, if they didn't think he was first rate LT.

 

Perhaps if you stopped arguing like a negotiator for the Bills, and tried to be objective on the matter, you'd come across as more knowledgeable, and less biased, on the subject.

[34-78-83]

Too bad the stats suggest otherwise.

 

 

 

 

 

Peters is nowhere near Pace and Ogden. To say otherwise is pure stupidity.

 

Stats? lol considering the only one who has his "stats" is his O-line Coach.

It's true that Peters is nowhere near Pace and Ogden. Just not in the way you're thinking.

[Leonidas]

You are now arguing in circles. The only reason Peters play is so severely criticized last year, is because of sacks. But, all of a sudden sacks no longer matter for Ogden, because he was good in college? WTF is that all about?

 

That was part of the joke. Relax there, Deano.

 

 

The simply fact that Peters has come so far, so fast, in the NFL is a credit to his talent, and work ethic. Nobody knows how high this guy's top end is.

 

I'll bet my house he doesn't have the career of Pace or Ogden. Want to take that bet?

 

And it should be noted that despite his ceiling, we all know he's certainly capable of not playing to it.

 

This idea that Peters will play at another position somewhere else, next year., is ridiculous. He won't be traded unless he gets a contract somewhere else and nobody is going to pay him $10 mill to be a guard. In fact, the Bills wouldn't be offering him $8 million, if they didn't think he was first rate LT.

 

I never said he'd be playing guard. I meant somewhere else as in another team.

 

 

Perhaps if you stopped arguing like a negotiator for the Bills, and tried to be objective on the matter, you'd come across as more knowledgeable, and less biased, on the subject.

 

Thanks for the advice. I've done research on the subject, provided resources, and given my opinion on the subject. What can I do to please thou? I'd hate to continue to sound like a negotiator for the Bills (after you told me I have no negotiating skills)...

[BuffaloBob]

Flozell Adams: $43M/6 years http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...ll.7e04cef.html

Michael Roos: $43M/6 years http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpag...NFL&id=3186

Branden Albert (#5 overall pick): $51M/6 years http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/722077.html

David Stewart: $38.9M/6 years http://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/conten...NFL&id=3311

Joe Thomas (#3 overall pick): $42.5M/5 years http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2950674

Jordan Gross was noted in my above post. (did you miss the part "name one not named Jordan Gross and Jake Long"?)

Stacy Andrews: $40M/6 years http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...NFl&id=2834

 

Only Thomas and Albert - both top five draft picks - make over $8M a year when bonuses are pro-rated, and barely. The phrase "good to great left tackles make $8-11M dollars a year" is just flat wrong.

 

Your numbers are wrong. They are based on non-allocated signing bonuses. Peters wants to be the highest paid lineman in the game which would put him at about $60M/5 years (Jake Long signed a $57.5M/5 year contract).

 

And thanks for ignoring all the tackles I mentioned. Since you won't do the research, let me do it for you:

 

Walter Jones: $52.5M/7 years http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...=nfl&id=539

Matt Light: $27.3M/6 years http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...NFL&id=1085

D'Brickashaw Furgueson: $37.5M/6 years http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpag...NFL&id=3620

Bryant McKinnie: $48.5M/7 years http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...NFl&id=1210

Ryan Clady: $14.75M/6 years http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...nfl&id=4616

Joe Staley: $8M/5 years http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpag...NFL&id=4213

Tony Ugoh: $4M/4 years http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpag...NFl&id=4208

Nice post and beat me to it. Those numbers quoted above from USA Today were not the AVERAGE yearly compensation for those players over the life of the contract. Those total salaries included the upfront bonus money they received when they first signed a new deal. Notice that the actual salary (i.e. non-bonus money) is typically well under 10% of the total for the first year. What those figures don't show is that their total salary for the next few years will be primarily made up of actual salary and will be just a couple million bucks per year. Then as they get to the back sie of the contract, the salary will increase up to a level that the player may not even see.

[The Dean]

Nice post and beat me to it. Those numbers quoted above from USA Today were not the AVERAGE yearly compensation for those players over the life of the contract. Those total salaries included the upfront bonus money they received when they first signed a new deal. Notice that the actual salary (i.e. non-bonus money) is typically well under 10% of the total for the first year.

 

That chart represents the money those players get THIS year. Accurate? i don't know.

 

 

 

What those figures don't show is that their total salary for the next few years will be primarily made up of actual salary and will be just a couple million bucks per year. Then as they get to the back sie of the contract, the salary will increase up to a level that the player may not even see.

 

Which is exactly how the Bills should structure Peters contract. Decent bonus, so he makes a big buck the next two years, with a back ended deal they can negate, by getting rid of him, if he isn't worth the money. Put the proper incentives into the contract, and he and his agent can brag he is the "highest paid" LT in the league. Of course, he won't be the highest paid LT every year.

[John from Riverside]

Honestly this should not even be about whether Peters is a good LT....he is a GREAT LT.

 

The problem is we cant keep having him ask for a new contract every so many years like has been doing, holding out like he has been doing, playing badly because he has been holding out like he has been doing, etc etc etc.

 

I think we have to move forward here........

[The Dean]

Honestly this should not even be about whether Peters is a good LT....he is a GREAT LT.

The problem is we cant keep having him ask for a new contract every so many years like has been doing, holding out like he has been doing, playing badly because he has been holding out like he has been doing, etc etc etc.

 

 

He did it once. Let's not exaggerate here.

[bflobarry]

Ok, something needs to be said here. Are the majority of the people on this board clinically insane? You have a 2 time pro bowl left tackle on the team, who is under contract for 2 more freakin years and you want to trade him????

 

Did he deserve to go to the pro bowl last year? Maybe not. But I'm sick of seeing this stupid "sacks allowed" pseudo-stat that everyone has got their panties in a bunch over. You do realize that it is not an official stat kept by the NFL because it is way too ambiguous. And please don't forget that he was playing next to dockery the pylon who was atrocious this year. The only time I remember him getting burned legitimately was the Edwards fumble against jacksonville (his first game back). The JP fumble against the jets that everyone places on Peters was a perfectly timed CB blitz and would have been tough for anyone to stop. Not to mention JP held onto the ball way too long.

 

Facts:

 

 

1. He did not have nearly as bad a year as most people here believe

 

2. He is the Bills' most valuable player by a wide margin. Please don't argue this. Think of what everyone is throwing around as to what we could get for him and see if any other player on the roster could even come close to that

 

3. The most important factor...the team still has all the leverage here. He is under contract for two more years at a serious discount. It would be completely asinine to trade him

 

4. Me saying he is awesome doesn't mean much but does the fact Jason Taylor said that he's the toughest lineman he's faced mean anything??

 

5. He wants as much money as he can get. As fans this bothers us, but this is his life...it's important to note the distinction. Like most people, he wants to maximize his earning power.

 

6. Save the crap about how he should take a hometown discount because the bills took a chance on him. They did so because they saw he had talent and could potentially help their team. Give whoever pushed for him (Bobby April) a raise if anything, not punish Peters. It wasn't like it was done out of charity.

 

7. Him not attending training camp is being overblown quite a bit. I'll bet the nagging knee injury that never gets mentioned had more to do with him not being as dominant as the year before. He didn't even partake in the pro bowl because of it and that was about two months after he had shut it down for the year. It stands to reason that it was more serious than anyone let on.

 

8. As much as a lot of you hate him, he likes Buffalo. Said it himself after the game in Toronto how much they missed the fan support. Everyone else was being diplomatic except him. I appreciated that (and I'm from Toronto!).

 

9. Best thing for the Bills to do would be to pay him. Contracts are just going to keep going up. The most economical, however, would be to refuse to renegotiate and let him play for 2 years at his current salary (and he would play, that's almost a guarantee..no way he sits out the first 9 games or whatever the number is) and try to find another LT in the draft in the meantime.

 

 

I really hope this story about them shopping Peters is untrue. The front office can't afford to be this stupid, especially not this year with all the buzz they've generated. The Bills offense can be good this year but it will all unravel if Peters is gone.

Wow, a thoughful, intelligent post. Nice job.

[Leonidas]

He did it once. Let's not exaggerate here.

 

Yeah, and he also made an issue that affected the entire team for the entire season. And he did it with three years left on his current deal after having his deal re-structured once already. And he did it after only one full season at his position. There is a difference between holding out after three seasons of the so-called "outperforming" your contract. This is another situation altogether.

 

Sorry, am I coming off like a negotiator for the Bills again???

[BuffaloBob]

Why do you consider Rotoworld a preferred source over McPaper? A fantasy football website, vs a national crappy paper. These are just all reports, anyway, as most teams don't release official numbers...or do they?

 

I would use the USA list, as it itemizes THIS YEAR'S salary and bonuses. Your sources simply cite the entire contract package, not yearly salaries and bonuses.

 

I'd like to hear Clumpy weigh in on this.

The average over the entire contract is what is relevant, not what the player puts in his pocket the first year. Most teams pay huge signing bonuses the first year because it represents guaranteed money to the player and because as far as cap accounting is concerned, it can be amortized over the entire contract. So most of those huge deals have a large signing bonus and a very small salary the first 3 years or so of the contract. The resulting average compensation works itself out over the ensuing years because the salaries are small for the next few years.

 

So in the case of Flozell Adams for example, the guy pocketed over 1/3 of his deal in the first year at $14 million. Notice that notwithstanding that he has pocketed nearly $15 million, his cap hit for that year is only a little over $3 Million! That's because the signing bonus is amortized over 6 years and 1/6 (2.167 Million) is added to the paltry $1 Million in salary for cap calculations. So that only leaves a total of $29 million left of the total contract to be paid out over the next 5 years. That averages out to $5.8 Million per year over the next five years!

 

Because teams try to keep the cap figure low for the first half or more of the contract, Adams' salary will only gradually rise in the 2nd through 4th seasons, and then swells in the last two years or so. So, his salary will likely be something like $2 Million, $3 Million, $5 Million, $7.5 Million, $11.5 Million over the next five years. So now do you get why the average value of the deal is what is relevant here?

 

Moreover, some teams will back-load the contract even more, pushing even more of the salary of years 2-4 to year 5, and the more that is done, it can render the effective average of the contract to be even less, as it becomes more likely the player will not see the salary of that final year because his cap value is so high for the last year.

[Leonidas]

The average over the entire contract is what is relevant, not what the player puts in his pocket the first year. Most teams pay huge signing bonuses the first year because it represents guaranteed money to the player and because as far as cap accounting is concerned, it can be amortized over the entire contract. So most of those huge deals have a large signing bonus and a very small salary the first 3 years or so of the contract. The resulting average compensation works itself out over the ensuing years because the salaries are small for the next few years.

 

So in the case of Flozell Adams for example, the guy pocketed over 1/3 of his deal in the first year at $14 million. Notice that notwithstanding that he has pocketed nearly $15 million, his cap hit for that year is only a little over $3 Million! That's because the signing bonus is amortized over 6 years and 1/6 (2.167 Million) is added to the paltry $1 Million in salary for cap calculations. So that only leaves a total of $29 million left of the total contract to be paid out over the next 5 years. That averages out to $5.8 Million per year over the next five years!

 

Because teams try to keep the cap figure low for the first half or more of the contract, Adams' salary will only gradually rise in the 2nd through 4th seasons, and then swells in the last two years or so. So, his salary will likely be something like $2 Million, $3 Million, $5 Million, $7.5 Million, $11.5 Million over the next five years. So now do you get why the average value of the deal is what is relevant here?

 

Moreover, some teams will back-load the contract even more, pushing even more of the salary of years 2-4 to year 5, and the more that is done, it can render the effective average of the contract to be even less, as it becomes more likely the player will not see the salary of that final year because his cap value is so high for the last year.

 

Thank you for explaining that. I didn't realize I had to explain what "pro-rated" bonuses meant while Deano freaked about the real contract numbers and thebandit thought Flozell Adams was getting $15M/year.

[Magox]

Thank you for explaining that. I didn't realize I had to explain what "pro-rated" bonuses meant while Deano freaked about the real contract numbers and thebandit thought Flozell Adams was getting $15M/year.

Let's just assume that there are only a handful of LT's getting payed over $8 Million a year, just for the sake of not arguing this point.

 

Your argument is that Peters shouldn't get payed over $8 Million based on existing contracts.

 

Now I ask you, what do you think a good LT is going to demand on a new contract?

 

We've all ready seen some decent Tackles getting payed $7.5 Million. Tackles that are considered no where near as good as Peters.

 

You have to realize that the majority of posters are basing their arguments are on existing contracts. That is a flawed way of looking at what someone's current value is.

 

You mention Walter Jones contract as a measuring stick. You have to realize that he signed that contract back in 2005. Things have changed since then. To compare Peters value today vs. Walters Value in 2005, you have to take into consideration how much salaries have increased since then.

 

Pro Bowl LT's from now on, I will gaurantee you anything, will get compensated over $8 Million a year.