Jason Peters vs Andre Smith

[DrDawkinstein]

Dude. I can't argue with you.

 

You are picking apart my argument with irrationality and it is pointless to continue debating this.

 

It would be rational to assume, that over the course of the past 2 years, our best players probably were the ones that made the pro bowl. Jason Peters would fit that category.

 

It would be rational to assume that if Peters was selected to the pro bowl, even in a year when he didn't perform that will, it was probably based on the fact that he is a good player, not based on the fact that there was a massive conspiracy among fans voting for him. No offense, but small market teams can't make that happen, no matter how awesome the fans are.

 

I'm picking your argument apart using logic and reasoning. Not guessing at what I think might be facts because I happen to FEEL that way.

 

Youre right, it is "rational" to assume those things. But the problem is ASSUMING anything to begin with, instead of going on what is actually presented to you as real life fact. You're building your entire argument on assumptions and opinions and assumptions OF opinions. If you can't understand those simple concepts of reasoning, then you're right, it's not worth having this conversation.

 

And Pro-Bowls are worthless. It is not a valid point in this argument and it has been proven by Peters' on-field performance vs his Pro-Bowl appearance. the fact he made it this past year completely invalidates the Pro-Bowl as a judgment of talent.

[LABills08]

the fact he made it this past year completely invalidates the Pro-Bowl as a judgment of talent.

 

Now that is an interesting, and perhaps a fair argument to make. But I appreciate you are bold enough to make it.

[Leonidas]

I know he is a good player. I know he made a bunch of mental mistakes this year and at times has difficulty getting a push on the left side for the run. I know he is probably one of the most athletic offensive linemen in the game.

 

Poor-to-adequate run blocking is not acceptable for an "elite" tackle! And we all saw how many sacks he gave up. This whole conversation is a joke. Peters is not "elite" by any means. Athleticism means nothing if you can't do your job, ask Vernon Gholston.

 

 

Oh, I also know that me drunkenly watching the games at a bar, does not make me an NFL scout. But I assume when a wide ranging poll known as a pro bowl vote is cast out, that it generally is expansive enough to reach a general consensus as to who the top players are. And 2/3's of the votes are cast by people who know far more about football than I do.

 

I appreciate your passion, I really do. But you are pulling everything from what other people think. You are picking and choosing your critiques to fit your opinion and aren't doing any of the leg work on your own. If you take away the pro bowls you've got very, very little ground to stand on with this argument.

[PromoTheRobot]

No one would argue that Peters is probably the most talented member of the Bills aside from Owens, correct?

If Peters is the 2nd most talented player on the Bills, what does that say about the team if a fat slob of a sack machine is #2.

 

PTR

[The Big Cat]

Now that is an interesting, and perhaps a fair argument to make. But I appreciate you are bold enough to make it.

 

He wasn't the first to make the point. That point was made over three months ago when Peters' selection was announced. Rather than give so much credibility to "all these people who pick the Pro Bowl" why not examine what Peters' own fans had to say about the matter:

 

Link

[Leonidas]

I'm just going based on the fact that I often have witnessed Bills fans turn on players out of passion for the team and emotion. I just disagree with those who think that he objectively is not that great of a player. I think he is a tremendous LT and I base that on watching him play and reading what more informed minds than my own have to say. I am a total amateur when it comes to scouting and though I make my own opinions I also trust the opinions of others . It seems the overall consensus from the better football minds out there is that Peters is a great player and last season was an anomaly. Could they be wrong? Of course!

 

Ehh, I'm kind of over the whole argument. Final point: It would be a dumb decision to draft Smith as a replacement to Peters.

 

A lot of reporters, journalists, and analysts are lazy. Jason Peters was discovered by some reporter and rather than do their own work other journalists just ride their coattails. It usually takes a few years until the consensus catches up with reality. This is more frequent with linemen too since fewer people pay attention to them (especially offensive linemen) and they have no real stats to speak of. Ruben Brown was making pro bowls long after he was a legitimate pro bowl G.

 

I agree on Andre Smith, though. That why I suggested getting another 1st rounder for Peters (which shouldn't be terribly difficult) and using it on a guy like Beatty from Connecticut and letting him start at RT while giving Walker - who shined at LT against Seattle - a chance to play LT. But Andre Smith just screams 'bust' to me, not to mention the fact that we have other needs at #11.

[DrDawkinstein]

I agree on Andre Smith, though. That why I suggested getting another 1st rounder for Peters (which shouldn't be terribly difficult) and using it on a guy like Beatty from Connecticut and letting him start at RT while giving Walker - who shined at LT against Seattle - a chance to play LT. But Andre Smith just screams 'bust' to me, not to mention the fact that we have other needs at #11.

 

Regardless of how any of us feel about Peters. I think we all tend to agree that picking Smith at 11 is not a good idea.

[Alphadawg7]

A lot of reporters, journalists, and analysts are lazy. Jason Peters was discovered by some reporter and rather than do their own work other journalists just ride their coattails. It usually takes a few years until the consensus catches up with reality. This is more frequent with linemen too since fewer people pay attention to them (especially offensive linemen) and they have no real stats to speak of. Ruben Brown was making pro bowls long after he was a legitimate pro bowl G.

 

I agree on Andre Smith, though. That why I suggested getting another 1st rounder for Peters (which shouldn't be terribly difficult) and using it on a guy like Beatty from Connecticut and letting him start at RT while giving Walker - who shined at LT against Seattle - a chance to play LT. But Andre Smith just screams 'bust' to me, not to mention the fact that we have other needs at #11.

 

Excellent post...

[LABills08]

Well the clear consensus, at least in this thread, seems to be that I am wrong. I can accept that, though I still believe a lot of the resentment towards Peters comes from the contract situation and the fact that he didn't put his money where his mouth was last season.

 

But, the legend persists.....

 

Buffalo Bills Chief Operating Officer Russ Brandon has been in charge of football operations since January of 2008.

 

In those 15 months he has faced a long holdout by his best player

Link

[The Big Cat]

Well the clear consensus, at least in this thread, seems to be that I am wrong. I can accept that, though I still believe a lot of the resentment towards Peters comes from the contract situation and the fact that he didn't put his money where his mouth was last season.

But, the legend persists.....

 

Link

 

Are you suggesting that's not an ample reason to be dissatisfied with one of your players? Sounds pretty legit to me.

 

Also, you're not wrong about getting rid of Peters and trying to replace him with a rookie being less than ideal. Everything else, you're pretty much wrong about.

[The Dean]

I think the Bills and Peters won't negotiate, in earnest, until after the draft, and Smith might be a reason for both. Peters probably wants to see what Smith gets, as a rookie, to use in the negotiations and the Bills may be looking at Smith as a possibility, in the draft (providing they are OK with the character issues).

 

If Smith fell to the Bills, or it didn't cost them an arm and a leg, in trade to move up, then I'd have no problem with them picking him, and dealing Peters...provided they get reasonable value. But, I doubt Smith will actually be available to the Bills.

[Leonidas]

I think the Bills and Peters won't negotiate, in earnest, until after the draft, and Smith might be a reason for both. Peters probably wants to see what Smith gets, as a rookie, to use in the negotiations and the Bills may be looking at Smith as a possibility, in the draft (providing they are OK with the character issues).

 

If Smith fell to the Bills, or it didn't cost them an arm and a leg, in trade to move up, then I'd have no problem with them picking him, and dealing Peters...provided they get reasonable value. But, I doubt Smith will actually be available to the Bills.

 

I don't know about that. Andre - not Jason - Smith has been plummeting down draft boards. I think he will be available AND I think we should/will pass on him.

[The Dean]

I don't know about that. Andre - not Jason - Smith has been plummeting down draft boards. I think he will be available AND I think we should/will pass on him.

 

 

You are correct...in a way. I actually have confused parts of each. Jason won't likely be available, Andre might, and might be an interesting pick.

 

I have to admit I can't really get a handle on these guys, as none truly stands out to me, the way a Jake Long, or Joe Thomas did, for example. Now, I'm nowhere near an expert on judging OL talent, in the draft, so I have to rely on the analyses of others, and what little I have seen.

 

I have the feeling it is draft deep in offensive linemen, but there is a lot of dissension about who is the class of the class. I hope the Bills pick a Day #1 offensive lineman, or even two, but I also think they have to come away with someone who can instantly contribute to the pass rush. Obviously, baring a trade, a TE would be nice, too.

 

If they can get that accomplished with solid players, I will be happy irrespective of the round they fill each need, as long as the package is good.

[LABills08]

You are correct...in a way. I actually have confused parts of each. Jason won't likely be available, Andre might, and might be an interesting pick.

 

I have to admit I can't really get a handle on these guys, as none truly stands out to me, the way a Jake Long, or Joe Thomas did, for example. Now, I'm nowhere near an expert on judging OL talent, in the draft, so I have to rely on the analyses of others, and what little I have seen.

 

I have the feeling it is draft deep in offensive linemen, but there is a lot of dissension about who is the class of the class. I hope the Bills pick a Day #1 offensive lineman, or even two, but I also think they have to come away with someone who can instantly contribute to the pass rush. Obviously, baring a trade, a TE would be nice, too.

 

If they can get that accomplished with solid players, I will be happy irrespective of the round they fill each need, as long as the package is good.

 

The draft is deep for lineman in general. Though I think you are right, it is important to note that there is no Jake Long or Joe Thomas.

 

Lets say the Bills trade Peters and are able to get another 1st rounder (most likely between 20-31).

 

Would do the Bills pick? I guess they could take a DE/OLB first and Mack/Unger at the 20-31 choice, but does that really make us better or just give us more question marks?

 

My point all along is that regardless of what you think about Peters, a rookie would be a much larger question mark at LT, no matter who it is.

[The Dean]

The draft is deep for lineman in general. Though I think you are right, it is important to note that there is no Jake Long or Joe Thomas.

 

Lets say the Bills trade Peters and are able to get another 1st rounder (most likely between 20-31).

 

Would do the Bills pick? I guess they could take a DE/OLB first and Mack/Unger at the 20-31 choice, but does that really make us better or just give us more question marks?

 

My point all along is that regardless of what you think about Peters, a rookie would be a much larger question mark at LT, no matter who it is.

 

 

I agree.

[dave mcbride]

uhhh, probably because NFL coaches and Players have more credibility than the fans. No disrespect.

I think one issue that everyone is neglecting is that when Peters is on, he's way better than anyone else on the line. Players who go up against him see it, even if they beat him on rare occasions. For comparison, look at Flozell Adams - over the years, he got the job done, more or less, but he didn't look good doing it. Players going against probably had a grudging respect for him, but they didn't go wow - this guy is quick, polished, and strong when he's on. I think they *do* say that about Peters, and when it comes time to vote, they don't base their vote on consistency. If they did, guys like Randy Moss and TO would never make the Pro Bowl. Braylon Edwards led the league in drops last year, but he's an elite player - anyone who watches the game closely or has to cover him knows it. With regard to Peters, look at that Browns game last year (a Monday Nighter that other players who vote actually watched, as opposed to the Bills 1 pm games). He was absolutely dominating - quick as a cat and overpowering at the same time. Again, players notice that stuff. They probably pay less attention to somewhat arbitary stats like sacks given up which aren't even tabulated until after the season and are sketchy to boot.

[papazoid]

i'm a BIG Jason Peters Fan....i hope the Bill's sign him but not for HUGE money. But lets take this from a different angle....as in how could we best spend $12 million per year that he wants , assuming we give up and Trade him. His trade value is easily worth a mid 1st and 3rd round draft choice. The cap value of a mid 1st is $4 million, the value of a 3rd round choice is under $1 million, which would leave you $7 million to sign another Free Agent.

[The Dean]

I think one issue that everyone is neglecting is that when Peters is on, he's way better than anyone else on the line. Players who go up against him see it, even if they beat him on rare occasions. For comparison, look at Flozell Adams - over the years, he got the job done, more or less, but he didn't look doing it. Players going against probably had a grudging respect for him, but they didn't go wow - this guy is quick, polished, and strong when he's on. I think they *do* say that about Peters, and when it comes time to vote, they don't base their vote on consistency. If they did, guys like Randy Moss and TO would never make the Pro Bowl. Braylon Edwards led the league in drops last year, but he's an elite player - anyone who watches the game closely or has to cover him knows it. With regard to Peters, look at that Browns game last year (a Monday Nighter that other players who vote actually watched, as opposed to the Bills 1 pm games). He was absolutely dominating - quick as a cat and overpowering at the same time. Again, players notice that stuff. They probably pay less attention to somewhat arbitary stats like sacks given up which aren't even tabulated until after the season and are sketchy to boot.

 

 

I think you are right about that. The players know which guys they face are very hard to play against. Even if they have success against a certain guy, if that guy is particularly talented, they remember,

[Leonidas]

My point all along is that regardless of what you think about Peters, a rookie would be a much larger question mark at LT, no matter who it is.

 

Well, no argument there. I just don't see Peters as a resounding answer to the question that some people do, not after last year.

 

 

Would do the Bills pick? I guess they could take a DE/OLB first and Mack/Unger at the 20-31 choice, but does that really make us better or just give us more question marks?

 

I really think Beatty from UConn would be a solid pick there at RT. Andre Smith terrifies me as a huge potential bust. Langston Walker proved he can play LT. People are making this position out to be impossible - it's not. It's important, but it's not impossible. Walker got a 5/$25M deal for a reason; the guy can play.

 

 

With regard to Peters, look at that Browns game last year (a Monday Nighter that other players who vote actually watched, as opposed to the Bills 1 pm games). He was absolutely dominating - quick as a cat and overpowering at the same time. Again, players notice that stuff. They probably pay less attention to somewhat arbitary stats like sacks given up which aren't even tabulated until after the season and are sketchy to boot.

 

You're citing the Cleveland game??? Cleveland was tied for 30th in sacks last year!!

 

 

I think one issue that everyone is neglecting is that when Peters is on, he's way better than anyone else on the line. Players who go up against him see it, even if they beat him on rare occasions. For comparison, look at Flozell Adams - over the years, he got the job done, more or less, but he didn't look good doing it. Players going against probably had a grudging respect for him, but they didn't go wow - this guy is quick, polished, and strong when he's on. I think they *do* say that about Peters, and when it comes time to vote, they don't base their vote on consistency. If they did, guys like Randy Moss and TO would never make the Pro Bowl. Braylon Edwards led the league in drops last year, but he's an elite player - anyone who watches the game closely or has to cover him knows it.

 

That doesn't make any sense at all. That's not even apples and oranges, that's apples and t-bone steaks. All WR's drop passes. The more you get thrown the more you drop. There's a reason elite WR's always lead the league in drops. Elite tackles NEVER lead the league in sacks. They have the opportunity to give up a sack every play; the same cannot be said for WR's. There's a reason you'll never see CJ Hawthorne lead the league in drops.

 

 

i'm a BIG Jason Peters Fan....i hope the Bill's sign him but not for HUGE money. But lets take this from a different angle....as in how could we best spend $12 million per year that he wants , assuming we give up and Trade him. His trade value is easily worth a mid 1st and 3rd round draft choice. The cap value of a mid 1st is $4 million, the value of a 3rd round choice is under $1 million, which would leave you $7 million to sign another Free Agent.

 

Hmm...you could sign three Matt Lights. Right now I'd take one over Peters.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I think one issue that everyone is neglecting is that when Peters is on, he's way better than anyone else on the line. Players who go up against him see it, even if they beat him on rare occasions. For comparison, look at Flozell Adams - over the years, he got the job done, more or less, but he didn't look good doing it. Players going against probably had a grudging respect for him, but they didn't go wow - this guy is quick, polished, and strong when he's on. I think they *do* say that about Peters, and when it comes time to vote, they don't base their vote on consistency. If they did, guys like Randy Moss and TO would never make the Pro Bowl. Braylon Edwards led the league in drops last year, but he's an elite player - anyone who watches the game closely or has to cover him knows it. With regard to Peters, look at that Browns game last year (a Monday Nighter that other players who vote actually watched, as opposed to the Bills 1 pm games). He was absolutely dominating - quick as a cat and overpowering at the same time. Again, players notice that stuff. They probably pay less attention to somewhat arbitary stats like sacks given up which aren't even tabulated until after the season and are sketchy to boot.

Lineman do remember the guys that kick their ass all day long and make them work at their job. They may remember a guy that sucked real bad too -- but more from in an amused, chuckling way, and certainly with no respect. So while some Bills fans may think Peters is a joke, the players did him the respect of putting him in the Pro Bowl.