Jerry Jabber Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 http://www.buffalorumblings.com/ I'm not into college football, but I do watch the draft to see who we get. How good is Andre Smith and would he available at the #11 spot? IMO, DE should be top priority, but if we trade Peters, then LT is just as important.
BuffaloBud Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Seeing the picture of Smith in SI without a shirt on . . . thows a whole bunch of questions up in the air. YIKES! I'd rather deal with a proven commodity than wonder about potential.
DrDawkinstein Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 I can't stress enough how terrible of an idea it would be to trade Jason Peters with the idea of replacing him through the draft. No one would argue that Peters is probably the most talented member of the Bills aside from Owens, correct? His play last year was uninspired and that says more about his character than anything else, but I have little doubt that his struggles last year were not a result of a lack of talent. That being said, why would you trade the best player on your team? And more importantly, the a cornerstone of your franchise! LT's are paid so much because good ones are hard to find and shutting down pressure on the blind side of your right handed QB is extremely important. Like it or not, Peters is probably right in his demands. At 27 years old, he is a valuable asset. Barring a career changing injury, the guy is going to finish his career wih 5-6 + pro bowls. So it is understandable why he wants to be the top paid guy. And no offense Bills fans, but aside from signing TO, the Bills aren't opening up their pocketbooks to show the players they want to win. Consequently, no hometown discount is going to happen. Unless trading Peters allows the Bills to come away with 4 draft picks in the top 40 (which I doubt it will), it really doesn't make much sense. We have too many holes to be filled and trading away our top player will create yet another MASSIVE hole and handicap our abilities to address from pressing needs with the number 11 pick. Smith might not be drafted in the top 15, but he won't fall to Philly's pick. Plus, Smith is lazy. The last thing you want is another lazy, fat, John McCargo type player on your team. If Peters is trying to push his way out of Buffalo and the Bills have no choice but to trade him, so be it. But if not, pay him and get this over with. id argue it. he's performed well when there was little expectation of him, but ive only seen 1 "very good" year from him. i dont want to trade him. just saying, if your argument is based on him being the most talented player on the team, then it's flawed from the beginning. id put Stroud, McGee, McKelvin, Parrish, Moorman, Lynch, Jackson and Evans above Peters' talent. He had a huge drop-off in performance partly due to being out of shape. That directly lowers his talent level. Pro-bowls dont mean anything to anyone besides Peters and his agent. Again, I dont want to trade him, but he isn't worth what he is demanding (if the $12mil+ figure is true).
Leonidas Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 No one would argue that Peters is probably the most talented member of the Bills aside from Owens, correct? I would. Lee Evans is more talented. Leodis McKelvin may be raw but is more talented. Stroud is on the wrong side of his career, but was more talented. Lynch has his best years in front of him and is more talented. It remains to be seen with the younger guys but I'll bet there are one or two more talented players on our roster. Not sure what the man-crush on Peters is all about. Like it or not, Peters is probably right in his demands. At 27 years old, he is a valuable asset. Barring a career changing injury, the guy is going to finish his career wih 5-6 + pro bowls. So it is understandable why he wants to be the top paid guy. And no offense Bills fans, but aside from signing TO, the Bills aren't opening up their pocketbooks to show the players they want to win. Consequently, no hometown discount is going to happen. No, he's not. It would be right if he was a top caliber player last year but he wasn't. Pro bowls doesn't make you a good tackle; keeping your QB off the ground and getting your RB space to run does. He did neither last year. Not sure which games you were watching. If Peters is trying to push his way out of Buffalo and the Bills have no choice but to trade him, so be it. But if not, pay him and get this over with. Yeah, just pay him whatever he wants because he had a good season in '07. Thank God you aren't running the franchise. We'd never get out of salary cap hell.
BuffaloBill Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 http://www.buffalorumblings.com/ IMO, DE should be top priority, but if we trade Peters, then LT is just as important. This discussion topic is worn out ... a recent poll shows the board is roughly split between the retain him or trade him camps. Each side is dug in and not much will change. I vote that until he is either signed to a new deal or traded that all new Jason Peters posts get erased.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 I'm hesitant to do this because of the absurd number of Jason Peters threads which I've avoided recently. Nevertheless. I deconstructed the events regarding the relationship between the Bills and Peters...the whole Kelsay contract-Schobel contract-Dockery contract, chain of events in which I thought Peters got screwed. Seven games into his new contract they made him the left tackle and he made the Pro Bowl. He was the 3rd highest paid player on the O-line and the 5th highest paid player on the team. I've always been in Peters' corner and still am. But I sense that we'll be unable to sign him. He won't get what he wants here and I doubt he'll get it anywhere else. Any team that trades for him will have to get him to agree to a contract first. I think ultimately he gets traded minimally for a 1st and a 3rd (Jared Allen was worth a 1st and 2 3rds). The well is poisoned, we move on. Yesterday I was arguing that from what I'd seen of Andre Smith (two 'bama games and 2 minutes of highlights) that I didn't see him as an elite left tackle. I may have changed my mind. I found this today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md-EZ6TOWyw...PL&index=16 Smith looks like he needs polishing and there's bound to be growing pains in his development. But as more people are suggesting this may be the best route at #11 plus we get extra picks. Hate to (yet again) plug holes that we made ourselves but that's just about where we are now.
atlbillsfan1975 Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Why replace one guy with a questionable attitude with another one. At 11 you could get one of the other elite tackles. Then with you other first rounder go defense. The combined signings of these two players would no where near equal what Peters wants. Smith seems to be another head case. If he doesn't understand how not showing up and doing the dog and pony dance at the combine, just cost him millions. Do you trust his judgement anywhere else. Trading Peters, although i dont want to do it, seems like the best option right now. Get more picks for less money. Whatever the Bills do they need to get it done before draft day. Otherwise that a big matzeh ball hanging out there.
DrDawkinstein Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Obviously youre entitled to that opinion and I can understand why one would jump to that conclusion after this season. But, I also understand the bitterness Bills fans have towards Peters and how that PROBABLY alters their opinion of him. After the 2008 season he was universally called the best player on the Bills. After his hold out, it turned into "well he is okay, but he only had 1 good season". I think its fairly universal thought in the football world that Peters is one of the top LT's in the league. In fact, he was ranked as such even before the 2008 season began, so arguing he only had one good season is not true. I'm sorry, but there is some fanboy ridiculousness in saying Stroud, McGee, McKelvin, Parrish, Moorman, Lynch, Jackson and Evans are better than Peters. I mean that is CRAZY. Stroud at one point was the most talented. Lynch and McKelvin might both develop into perennial pro bowlers, and Evans certainly has shown flashes that he is a top 10 WR in the league. But you have to be crazy to think that their talent level tops that of Jason Peters. If being out of shape from sitting outside of workouts means you are not talented, than a lot of top players in the league are not talented. I would agree totally with his character coming into question. But, if you think Peters is going to stink it up for the next 5 years I think a lot of people would disagree to give you some background on how big of a fan of Peters i am/was, I had a #48 jersey made up back during his first year, before he had a real position on the team. I was a huge fan of his in college. I was thrilled when the Bills picked him up and went on record telling everyone I knew how good he was going to be at whatever position we found for him. If I have any "fanboy ridiculousness" it is IN HIS FAVOR. that being said, I think it is you who is needs to back-off on the ridiculous with statements like "the most talented player on the team" and "universally called the best player on the Bills". he was a pleasant surprise in his development from an over-sized TE to a talented O-Lineman. you need to realize that he is not a pedigree LT, he has been taught the position and after 2 years MUST still be learning. Do I think he has the POTENTIAL to become one of the best LTs in the league? yes, and he is PART WAY to proving it. But if his greed and sense of entitlement stop him from continuing to learn and develop, then he isnt that top flight LT you want him to be. If he had the talent level that you are suggesting, then he should've been able to come in and succeed last year. If anything, all he proved is that he is still raw and needs to be worked with. He has some awesome god-given physical talents, but every player in the NFL does. It's not about what you were born with, it's about what you are willing to work towards. To that end, I still say that those players I listed have more god-given physical talent. See it how you want, but I am definitely not the ONLY fanboy in this conversation...
Leonidas Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 After the 2008 season he was universally called the best player on the Bills. By whom?? I think its fairly universal thought in the football world that Peters is one of the top LT's in the league. Is that why you think he's so great? Or are you an offensive line scout?? Lynch and McKelvin might both develop into perennial pro bowlers, and Evans certainly has shown flashes that he is a top 10 WR in the league. But you have to be crazy to think that their talent level tops that of Jason Peters. Why? But you have to be crazy to think that their talent level tops that of Jason Peters. If being out of shape from sitting outside of workouts means you are not talented, than a lot of top players in the league are not talented. So you're saying he knew he's stink up the joint if he sat out but chose to sit out anyway and not give a damn about how that affected his teammates? Are you familiar with Orlando Pace? He sat out like three pre-seasons in a row and always played at a top caliber level. Orlando Pace (a true top talent) Peters is not. I would agree totally with his character coming into question. But, if you think Peters is going to stink it up for the next 5 years I think a lot of people would disagree Why? Does he have a long resumé of dominating DE's? Or did he just have one good year at LT and now expects to be paid considerably better than his colleagues?? He certainly stunk it up last year, what's to keep him from doing it again? He's word? He doesn't have T.O.'s workout mentality, that's for sure.
DrDawkinstein Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 So you're saying he knew he's stink up the joint if he sat out but chose to sit out anyway and not give a damn about how that affected his teammates? Are you familiar with Orlando Pace? He sat out like three pre-seasons in a row and always played at a top caliber level. Orlando Pace (a true top talent) Peters is not. Why? Does he have a long resumé of dominating DE's? Or did he just have one good year at LT and now expects to be paid considerably better than his colleagues?? He certainly stunk it up last year, what's to keep him from doing it again? He's word? He doesn't have T.O.'s workout mentality, that's for sure. great points here! the first being the Pace comparison. You are right, Pace held out almost every year and still performed. Peters does not have the pedigree to be pulling this. He is hurting himself, his team, and his career. He whines about "If I get injured there goes my entire life". Well, you are much more likely to be injured when you miss camp and play out of shape. Also, great point about TO and his work ethic. TO has all the god-given talent in the world, but it is the WORK he does that let's him produce on the field. This is a job, they are paid to WORK, not just because they were born fast or big.
SKOOBY Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 great points here! the first being the Pace comparison. You are right, Pace held out almost every year and still performed. Peters does not have the pedigree to be pulling this. He is hurting himself, his team, and his career. He whines about "If I get injured there goes my entire life". Well, you are much more likely to be injured when you miss camp and play out of shape. Also, great point about TO and his work ethic. TO has all the god-given talent in the world, but it is the WORK he does that let's him produce on the field. This is a job, they are paid to WORK, not just because they were born fast or big. Pace is his prime was usually one of the best players on the field. We have seen some great blocking from Peters but cannot run behind him as well, unlike Pace. Please don't try to put Peters / Pace in the same sentence.
The Big Cat Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Obviously youre entitled to that opinion and I can understand why one would jump to that conclusion after this season. But, I also understand the bitterness Bills fans have towards Peters and how that PROBABLY alters their opinion of him. After the 2008 season he was universally called the best player on the Bills. After his hold out, it turned into "well he is okay, but he only had 1 good season". I think its fairly universal thought in the football world that Peters is one of the top LT's in the league. In fact, he was ranked as such even before the 2008 season began, so arguing he only had one good season is not true. I'm sorry, but there is some fanboy ridiculousness in saying Stroud, McGee, McKelvin, Parrish, Moorman, Lynch, Jackson and Evans are better than Peters. I mean that is CRAZY. Stroud at one point was the most talented. Lynch and McKelvin might both develop into perennial pro bowlers, and Evans certainly has shown flashes that he is a top 10 WR in the league. But you have to be crazy to think that their talent level tops that of Jason Peters. If being out of shape from sitting outside of workouts means you are not talented, than a lot of top players in the league are not talented. I would agree totally with his character coming into question. But, if you think Peters is going to stink it up for the next 5 years I think a lot of people would disagree Dude, your chronology is WACK.
DrDawkinstein Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 It is also universally known that the dirtiest word in all of Professional Sports, the word that gets more coaches and GMs fired than any other, is POTENTIAL. Potential doesnt mean squat. A wise green man once said "Do, or do not." You don't pay players based on what they may POTENTIALLY become. He is either a top LT, or he isn't. And given the fact that this whole saga was brought on by Peters' camp over his performance in ONE season, then based on LAST season he OWES us money.
LABills08 Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 It is also universally known that the dirtiest word in all of Professional Sports, the word that gets more coaches and GMs fired than any other, is POTENTIAL. Potential doesnt mean squat. A wise green man once said "Do, or do not." You don't pay players based on what they may POTENTIALLY become. He is either a top LT, or he isn't. And given the fact that this whole saga was brought on by Peters' camp over his performance in ONE season, then based on LAST season he OWES us money. Oh come on, we aren't talking about Ryan Leaf here! Peters has two pro bowls under his belt at 27. Regardless of whether we agree or not, he was awarded a pro bowl last season by his peers. What? Do you think it was some massive conspiracy to get him a larger contract? Or perhaps he is GOOD!
DrDawkinstein Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Regardless, I am just trying to look at this objectively. but youre not Peters had a sub-par season this year and was selected to the Pro Bowl based more on what people KNOW he is capable of rather than how he actually performed. I agree with all that. so you know what was in the mind of every single pro-bowl voter? you know it wasnt just his family at home voting over and over? you know that he wasnt put back on the probowl team based on name recognition alone? i.m not saying that those things are what happened, but you are saying you know they definitely didn't. that is not an objective or reasonable way of looking at it. But I think it is incredibily dismissive of apparently a huge amount of fans to say that he is a liability and overrated after 1 season of poor play. Its just crazy to me that so many people believe it. As opposed to fans like yourself, who say he is the best player on the team after 1 season of good play? I just think it is naive to say that he can be easily replaced. He won't be. Especially not by Andre Smith. this i can agree with. but that is NOT what you have been arguing this entire time
dave mcbride Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 This discussion topic is worn out ... a recent poll shows the board is roughly split between the retain him or trade him camps. Each side is dug in and not much will change. I vote that until he is either signed to a new deal or traded that all new Jason Peters posts get erased. The reason it's discussed so much is that aside from the draft, it's the only interesting topic going by far. It's no use getting frustrated by it - it's entirely predictable. A fifteenth Jason Peters thread is more appealing to me than one on the resigning of Keith Ellison.
Leonidas Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Regardless, I am just trying to look at this objectively. Peters had a sub-par season this year and was selected to the Pro Bowl based more on what people KNOW he is capable of rather than how he actually performed. I agree with all that. How do we KNOW that, exactly? How do we KNOW he didn't just have a great season in '07? It happened to Derek Anderson. But I think it is incredibily dismissive of apparently a huge amount of fans to say that he is a liability and overrated after 1 season of poor play. Its just crazy to me that so many people believe it. Why? You are more than willing to do the opposite after one season of solid play. You can't have it both ways. For whoever was deposing me before: Peters is universally considered an O-Lineman with limitless potential. Clearly, work ethic as a result of contract angst have been a hurdle. I could quote various opinions from people who know/care way more about the NFL than I do, but the one I was referring to in my previous posts (the opinion of P. King) is here top 500 NFL players pre-2007 season Peters is ranked at 39, the only T rated higher was Walter Jones. And he performed to those expectations in 2007 w/ his best year ever. Now I understand what all the dissenters will say: that was two years ago, look where Schobel was ranked, Peter King always had a hard on for Peters, etc., etc. But even beyond King, writers have acknowledged his value. Graham has stated it, Chris Brown has stated it, most of Buff News people talk about it. I just think it is naive to say that he can be easily replaced. He won't be. Especially not by Andre Smith. I love Peter King, but this list is irrelevant for two reasons. 1) It's from pre-2007. We're going into 2009. King was right; Peters had a great 2007 campaign. But the list is two years old and obsolete. 2) Look at the names on this list. Some of them are still blue chip players, but some of them aren't. Aaron Schobel is a great example. So is Matt Hasselbeck, Torry Holt, and Jason Taylor. Would you give any of them a blank check at this point of their careers? I wouldn't. I guarantee you if Peter King came up with an up to date list Peters wouldn't be anywhere near the top 100. But even beyond King, writers have acknowledged his value. Graham has stated it, Chris Brown has stated it, most of Buff News people talk about it. That's great. But why do YOU feel so strongly about him? Have you scouted him? Is there something special about him that you've noticed? Or did you just hear about how great he was from other people? Most people don't watch the linemen, and since they don't have stats they just go off of what other people tell them. I'm pretty sure that's what's happening here. Like someone else said in another thread, everyone thought Mike Williams was doing a good job early on. I just think it is naive to say that he can be easily replaced. He won't be. Especially not by Andre Smith. That's the first thing you've said that makes any sense. But if we get another first rounder it's not out of the question to put Walker at LT and drafting say a Beatty from Connecticut to start right away at RT. Walker looked better than Peters did this season, and he's nowhere near your Peter King list.
DrDawkinstein Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 The reason it's discussed so much is that aside from the draft, it's the only interesting topic going by far. It's no use getting frustrated by it - it's entirely predictable. A fifteenth Jason Peters thread is more appealing to me than one on the resigning of Keith Ellison. agreed, i dont usually fall into these pits, but there is nothing else to talk about and Union seems alright
The Big Cat Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Oh come on, we aren't talking about Ryan Leaf here! Peters has two pro bowls under his belt at 27. Regardless of whether we agree or not, he was awarded a pro bowl last season by his peers. What? Do you think it was some massive conspiracy to get him a larger contract? Or perhaps he is GOOD! Yeah, but you said yourself that he made the Pro Bowl because of what people KNOW (think) about his potential. And--according to you--it's based on the brilliance he showed in 2007. Does that mean you think Favre should have made the Pro Bowl based on his play in the mid to late 90's?
The Big Cat Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Dude. I can't argue with you. You are picking apart my argument with irrationality and it is pointless to continue debating this. It would be rational to assume, that over the course of the past 2 years, our best players probably were the ones that made the pro bowl. Jason Peters would fit that category. It would be rational to assume that if Peters was selected to the pro bowl, even in a year when he didn't perform that will, it was probably based on the fact that he is a good player, not based on the fact that there was a massive conspiracy among fans voting for him. No offense, but small market teams can't make that happen, no matter how awesome the fans are. So clearly, we aren't getting anywhere. Since you apparently think I am being overly subjective by pointing out the facts. Here's something original: try evaluating what you KNOW about Peters WITHOUT factoring in the Pro Bowl.
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