Offensive line play

[Leonidas]

I was mulling this over, thinking of the Peters situation, and I realized I didn't really have a good answer: is it better to spend your resources on fewer star players or more solid players? Are you as good as your best player or your worst?

 

Basically, if we're in the situation where we can choose to pay Peters big money, but be out of cash and rely on rookies/journeymen to play LG and C, are we better or worse off than if we ended up with a line composed of five guys who are reliably above average?

 

Are big-money tackles worthless if they're playing next to Arena league guards? Peters certainly struggled with Dockery over his shoulder; how's he going to do with Chambers or Brad Rodd or whatever if we do retain him? Better or worse than the Butler/Walker side of the line?

 

That's an excellent question. I think the answer is that one lineman cannot make an entire offensive line better. If you can't get around him, just attack a different part of the line. The Patriots manage to do it with a bunch of solid linemen; no stars, but no bums either. That's why this whole Jason Peters thing is such a joke to me. I'd rather go at it with five Langston Walkers (or five Matt Lights, if you will) than a Jason Peters and four Mike Williamses.

 

 

 

We should be willing to pay him about $10 mill/ year and possibly a fraction higher. Whoever we would trade him to would do that. Two years from now there'll be ten guys or more making better money. Last year we could have had him for $8. This year, the price goes up, and that $8 looks like it would have been a bargain. Next year it will go up again, and so on.

 

Well if another team is willing to do it so should we!!

 

 

A great player at one of the most crucial position in the game. You simply pay him. All the stuff we are seeing now, from both sides, is bargaining and posturing. He'll be a Bill for the next 6 or 7 years minimum and we'll be thrilled about it.

 

"You simply pay him." I'm so sick of you people who scream things like this and then wonder why we end up in salary cap hell.

 

 

I do think the Bills would address OL if they traded Peters for a pick. You have to remember that one of the first things the new regime did was to sign Walker and Dockery. Although it did not work out with Dockery, he was highly regarded. In one day, they spent a ton of money on 40% of the line. I think the drafting of Bell was an attempt to again catch lightning in a bottle a la Peters. It is ok to try something like that and I think we all hope it works. IF Dockery had worked out and Peters was happy with his contract, we would be in pretty good shape at OL and looking to draft a Center and depth. That didn't happen but not all plans work. I think Levy/Jauron at least had a plan. Donahoe did not fully address the line at all. Parrish/Everett? That is a lot worse than McKelvin. If Peters is gone for a #1 though, you simply have to draft a top flight LT prospect and/or sign a bridge player like Pace. The Bills will realize this.

 

With respect to DBs I don't share your opinion. I think each of our drafted DBs have been a result of looking at the roster, the defensive schemes and contract situations. We drafted Whitner because we had an absolute void there and a player like him is needed in Jauron's preferred defense. You can certainly convince me that the Cover 2 is not our best choice, but if the cover two is a given, a Whitner is needed. McKelvin is very talented and the status of our DB contracts entering 08 helped dictate that this was a reasonable pick. I know McGee's contract is up and I doubt we'll pay him enough, but I also think the Bills will see the bigger picture this draft. We may draft a DB sooner than you'd like...maybe in the 4th or even 3rd, but we won't use a high pick there unless a real stud safety drops into round 2.

 

That's a pretty solid post. I can't imagine we pick up a DB anywhere earlier than the fourth round (even then, it's a stretch), but if we're looking for value by that point and as stud (as you say) falls to us I wouldn't rule it out. Even if McGee leaves, we've still got McKelvin, Youboty, Corner, and Florence, so, like WR, it's not a position of need at all (the FO did a good job drafting DB's last year). FS might be, depending on where Whitner is used best.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

That's a pretty solid post. I can't imagine we pick up a DB anywhere earlier than the fourth round (even then, it's a stretch), but if we're looking for value by that point and as stud (as you say) falls to us I wouldn't rule it out. Even if McGee leaves, we've still got McKelvin, Youboty, Corner, and Florence, so, like WR, it's not a position of need at all (the FO did a good job drafting DB's last year). FS might be, depending on where Whitner is used best.

Anything after the first two rounds for the Bills (and most teams, I imagine) is purely value. Think about picks like Edwards and Dwayne Wright. Its comical how people write these posts saying, "...then we'll go tight end in the 3rd and center in the 4th and..." Ridiculous! The Bills don't sit there and plan out what positions to take the whole way through, because by the time these guys will be any good, the positional needs on your team will have changed.

 

Anything after the 2nd round is simply about adding to your talent pool.

[Bill from NYC]

With respect to DBs I don't share your opinion. I think each of our drafted DBs have been a result of looking at the roster, the defensive schemes and contract situations. We drafted Whitner because we had an absolute void there and a player like him is needed in Jauron's preferred defense. You can certainly convince me that the Cover 2 is not our best choice, but if the cover two is a given, a Whitner is needed. McKelvin is very talented and the status of our DB contracts entering 08 helped dictate that this was a reasonable pick. I know McGee's contract is up and I doubt we'll pay him enough, but I also think the Bills will see the bigger picture this draft. We may draft a DB sooner than you'd like...maybe in the 4th or even 3rd, but we won't use a high pick there unless a real stud safety drops into round 2.

 

That's cool. We can simply agree to disagree.

 

I look at things differently. While I do fully understand the need for a safety in the cover-2, I don't, nor will I ever think it is even close to being as important as the OL or the DL, which both sucked at the time of the 06 draft.

 

As for this month, we will have to see, but I am anything but optimistic that Dick Levy will use our early picks on blockers.

[ieatcrayonz]

That's cool. We can simply agree to disagree.

 

I look at things differently. While I do fully understand the need for a safety in the cover-2, I don't, nor will I ever think it is even close to being as important as the OL or the DL, which both sucked at the time of the 06 draft.

 

As for this month, we will have to see, but I am anything but optimistic that Dick Levy will use our early picks on blockers.

To be clear, I think that if Peters is retained that there is a chance we do not draft OL in the top 3. My guess is that we would, but we might not. I would agree with you that this omission would be a mistake.

 

If Peters is in fact traded, I am almost certain we would spend at least one very high pick on OL.

[spartacus]

I do think the Bills would address OL if they traded Peters for a pick. You have to remember that one of the first things the new regime did was to sign Walker and Dockery. Although it did not work out with Dockery, he was highly regarded. In one day, they spent a ton of money on 40% of the line. I think the drafting of Bell was an attempt to again catch lightning in a bottle a la Peters. It is ok to try something like that and I think we all hope it works. IF Dockery had worked out and Peters was happy with his contract, we would be in pretty good shape at OL and looking to draft a Center and depth. That didn't happen but not all plans work. I think Levy/Jauron at least had a plan. Donahoe did not fully address the line at all. Parrish/Everett? That is a lot worse than McKelvin. If Peters is gone for a #1 though, you simply have to draft a top flight LT prospect and/or sign a bridge player like Pace. The Bills will realize this.

 

With respect to DBs I don't share your opinion. I think each of our drafted DBs have been a result of looking at the roster, the defensive schemes and contract situations. We drafted Whitner because we had an absolute void there and a player like him is needed in Jauron's preferred defense. You can certainly convince me that the Cover 2 is not our best choice, but if the cover two is a given, a Whitner is needed. McKelvin is very talented and the status of our DB contracts entering 08 helped dictate that this was a reasonable pick. I know McGee's contract is up and I doubt we'll pay him enough, but I also think the Bills will see the bigger picture this draft. We may draft a DB sooner than you'd like...maybe in the 4th or even 3rd, but we won't use a high pick there unless a real stud safety drops into round 2.

 

 

you have hit on a very key point

 

Even if the Bills want to acquire OL, they are totally incompetent at identifying what makes a quality OL.

 

Whether blowing the 4th pick on a fat RT instead of taking the stud LT, or paying $50 mil for a G they cut 2 years later, the front office (read Linda Bogdan) is totally inept at scouting OL talent in college, the pros or on their own team.

 

the only quality LT they have had in 15 years was pure luck as they actually cut him.

 

If they trade Peters, even if they spend the first 4 picks on the OL, history indicates that they will still screw it up and end up with poor players.

 

they may be the reason why they keep drafting DBs - because they are good at it

[rpcolosi]

you have hit on a very key point

 

Even if the Bills want to acquire OL, they are totally incompetent at identifying what makes a quality OL.

 

Whether blowing the 4th pick on a fat RT instead of taking the stud LT, or paying $50 mil for a G they cut 2 years later, the front office (read Linda Bogdan) is totally inept at scouting OL talent in college, the pros or on their own team.

 

the only quality LT they have had in 15 years was pure luck as they actually cut him.

 

If they trade Peters, even if they spend the first 4 picks on the OL, history indicates that they will still screw it up and end up with poor players.

 

they may be the reason why they keep drafting DBs - because they are good at it

 

 

 

very good point. Its amazing how we are able to strike it rich year in and year out on DBs in the draft. I mean from Antoine Winfiled on we really have no missed on many defensive backs. Whitner is not worthy of his draft spot, but he is a heck of a solid defender. greer was un-drafted and one of donahoe's best moves (his 2 best moves were undrafted rookie FA - greer and peters). yobouty came around, corner was great, mcgee went from being picked on like crazy to shut down, nate was a pro bowler, and mckelvin is on his way. Our last really bad corner was probably chris "I'm a punt catcher" watson, who we got from denver anyway...

 

 

but it is clear that this team can not identify good lineman on either side of the ball. i mean we are really, really bad at this. and its costing us. this is why parcells teams are year in and year out good. he can ID the good guys you want in the trenches. From McCargo to Tripplett to Tim Anderson? horrible... Stroud was a can't miss but a risky move well made by brandon. and on the O-line we have drafted exactly 1 solid lineman for his intended purpose - Butler. Peters was lucky in many regards. mike williams, bust, preston, bust, terrence pennington, aaron merz, just geisinger, mike pucillo... say it with me... bust bust bust!

 

our last successful drafted O-lineman was jennings in '01 and at guard, brown in '95... this is sadly a huge problem.

 

speaking of, the 99-03 draft classes just really killed us - from big whiffs to no longer even having guys on our team. that takes a while to come back from....