silvermike Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 I was mulling this over, thinking of the Peters situation, and I realized I didn't really have a good answer: is it better to spend your resources on fewer star players or more solid players? Are you as good as your best player or your worst? Basically, if we're in the situation where we can choose to pay Peters big money, but be out of cash and rely on rookies/journeymen to play LG and C, are we better or worse off than if we ended up with a line composed of five guys who are reliably above average? Are big-money tackles worthless if they're playing next to Arena league guards? Peters certainly struggled with Dockery over his shoulder; how's he going to do with Chambers or Brad Rodd or whatever if we do retain him? Better or worse than the Butler/Walker side of the line?
LynchMob23 Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 I think one thing the Patriots have done which helps them is surround their stars/core players with what people have called "the NFL middle class" - guys who were journeymen or just average to above average. I think that's a more economical way to do it - spend your money on your core and then build people around them.
Lofton80 Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 I have read the Patriots are big believers in building their offensive line from the interior out so the QB can step forward without someone in his face. This blew up against the Giants in the Super Bowl but I think they have had a little success. I think one thing the Patriots have done which helps them is surround their stars/core players with what people have called "the NFL middle class" - guys who were journeymen or just average to above average. I think that's a more economical way to do it - spend your money on your core and then build people around them.
silvermike Posted March 31, 2009 Author Posted March 31, 2009 I guess the question is: do you want five Langston Walker types on your line, or Jason Peters and four Geoff Hangarteners, or Peters, Walker, and three Kirk Chambers. In terms of quality, not position of course.
abqmarko Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 The Bills have neglected the OL in the draft for the last decade. My opinion of the OL last year: OG Brad Butler was picked in the 5th and has played well the only negative is his injury history. Well worth what he is paid. Solid starter and should be better this year. OG Dockery-Overpaid, good move he's gone-The beauty of the OG and C spots are that you can find the top rated players, (many whom start the first year and play well) in the second and third rounds of the draft, they dont get picked higher but pan out usually pretty well. Looks like a rookie may start for us and hopefully perform like several other OG have the first year-ie' Logan Mankins, Chris Snee etc. C-Preston and Fowler both gone-no tears-Geoff Hangartner now-Will be an upgrade-This years C posititon is loaded, I hope Mack falls to us in the second. Hangartner can play OG also which gives the OL flexibility. OT-Walker, Played well and in many ways out performed Peters. Solid RT and played well at LT when Peters sat. OT-Peters-Million dollar question-If he doesnt take 8.5 Million a year AND sign for an additional year look at trading him. If we got a two firsts or one 1st and a 2Nd and an additional pick the next year I'd consider doing it. The guy played well but was NOT a pro-bowler. Fact is many of the rookie OT outplayed him last year-Long and Clady were both superior. Could be a rookie starter and/or Walker at the spot. Chambers played well in reserve and better at the OT spot than at OG. If the Peteres trade happend I'd love to see this 1)LB's Cushing or Mauluaga-or DE Brown or Orakapo-DT Raji 1B) OTEben Britten 2) C Alex Mack or top rated OG on the board 2) DE Connor Barwin 3) TE-Coffman
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Hey guys whatever we do, let's look at the facts first and go from there. Patriots Offensive Line (Left to Right) Matt Light, 2nd round, 48th overall Logan Mankins, 1st round, 32nd overall Dan Koppen, 5th round, 164th overall Stephen Neal, undrafted free agent Nick Kaczur, 3rd round, 100th overall (compensatory pick) The Patriots beat to their own drum. For instance they are not afraid of drafting guards in the first round as most teams are. Their offensive line has two high round picks, two mid round picks, and an undrafted free agent. Their 5 primary reserves consist of 4 undrafted free agents and Ryan O'Callaghan, a 5th rounder, 136th overall.
abqmarko Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 Hey guys whatever we do, let's look at the facts first and go from there. Patriots Offensive Line (Left to Right) Matt Light, 2nd round, 48th overall Logan Mankins, 1st round, 32nd overall Dan Koppen, 5th round, 164th overall Stephen Neal, undrafted free agent Nick Kaczur, 3rd round, 100th overall (compensatory pick) The Patriots beat to their own drum. For instance they are not afraid of drafting guards in the first round as most teams are. There offensive line has two high round picks, two mid round picks, and an undrafted free agent. Their 5 primary reserves consist of 4 undrafted free agents and Ryan O'Callaghan, a 5th rounder, 136th overall. I agree and the facts are that 6o% of their starters have been picked in the top three rounds-Mankins being taken with the last pick in the first. There is considerable value for OG and C's in the second and third rounds-Hopefully Buffalo starts to take one or two of these positons in those rounds every few years, and yes the later picks and undrafted guys CAN sometimes pan out. I thinkthe highest drafted OL in recent memory has been Brad Butler (and thats a 5th rounder). This year there's alot of good talent especially at the C position I hope we get in the mix-Hangartner can play OG also
BB-Gun Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 I like the idea of drafting a OL between rounds 2-4, to play either LG or C. I am not in favor of trading Peters. I don't think we would benefit in a trade. I think we may only get at best a late 1st round. Likely, a 2nd and mid round. Whomever gets Peters still has to renegotiate his contract and won't give up too much for that likely pay he will demand. We won't be able to get a LT outside of the top 10 that is in par with Peters, IMO. Peters is still a young player and can be our LT for many years. I say we pay him, or let him sit out training camp again.
abqmarko Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 I like the idea of drafting a OL between rounds 2-4, to play either LG or C.I am not in favor of trading Peters. I don't think we would benefit in a trade. I think we may only get at best a late 1st round. Likely, a 2nd and mid round. Whomever gets Peters still has to renegotiate his contract and won't give up too much for that likely pay he will demand. We won't be able to get a LT outside of the top 10 that is in par with Peters, IMO. Peters is still a young player and can be our LT for many years. I say we pay him, or let him sit out training camp again. How much would you pay him, do you believe he should be the highest OT in the game? I feel a raise to 8.5 puts him is fair and dont forget we still have him under contract for the next two years.
abqmarko Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 I like the idea of drafting a OL between rounds 2-4, to play either LG or C.I am not in favor of trading Peters. I don't think we would benefit in a trade. I think we may only get at best a late 1st round. Likely, a 2nd and mid round. Whomever gets Peters still has to renegotiate his contract and won't give up too much for that likely pay he will demand. We won't be able to get a LT outside of the top 10 that is in par with Peters, IMO. Peters is still a young player and can be our LT for many years. I say we pay him, or let him sit out training camp again. He wants to be the highest paid OT in the league, how much would you pay him? 8.5 would be a fair and competitive salary. He just did not perform last year as good as several other OT's. I question his work ethic and desire for the game now more than ever.
BB-Gun Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 He wants to be the highest paid OT in the league, how much would you pay him? 8.5 would be a fair and competitive salary. He just did not perform last year as good as several other OT's. I question his work ethic and desire for the game now more than ever. I agree his work ethic seemed poor, last season. But that did not seem to be the case before then, as far as I know. I'm hoping he has a turn-around, and again can be that dominant LT we expect from him. I would bet on him, than a rookie we have no history of, and can be another Mike Williams. I would think Peters should be paid in the 8.5-9.5 mil range. Besides, his agent saying he wants 11 mil is just part of negotiating. Buyer starts low, seller starts high, then they meet somewhere in the middle. At least that is how negotiations usually work.
bladiebla Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 I was mulling this over, thinking of the Peters situation, and I realized I didn't really have a good answer: is it better to spend your resources on fewer star players or more solid players? Are you as good as your best player or your worst? From a QB protection standpoint of view clearly the answer is worst. Running lane wise it depends on how bad the others are for how much worse they are the more the defense will be able to focus on closing the lane. Basically, if we're in the situation where we can choose to pay Peters big money, but be out of cash and rely on rookies/journeymen to play LG and C, are we better or worse off than if we ended up with a line composed of five guys who are reliably above average? I'd go with five guys who are reliably above average for it will give you a winning season, however you will loose against better defenses. Are big-money tackles worthless if they're playing next to Arena league guards? Peters certainly struggled with Dockery over his shoulder; how's he going to do with Chambers or Brad Rodd or whatever if we do retain him? Better or worse than the Butler/Walker side of the line? This could indeed have caused his awfull stats for last year, then again if keeping him means you'll only be able to afford subpar LG and C then we'd be better off getting 3 above average guys for the 12 million Peters wants.
Trader Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 I was mulling this over, thinking of the Peters situation, and I realized I didn't really have a good answer: is it better to spend your resources on fewer star players or more solid players? Are you as good as your best player or your worst? Basically, if we're in the situation where we can choose to pay Peters big money, but be out of cash and rely on rookies/journeymen to play LG and C, are we better or worse off than if we ended up with a line composed of five guys who are reliably above average? Are big-money tackles worthless if they're playing next to Arena league guards? Peters certainly struggled with Dockery over his shoulder; how's he going to do with Chambers or Brad Rodd or whatever if we do retain him? Better or worse than the Butler/Walker side of the line? Terrific point OL is about the entire unit. When there is a huge disparity in compensaiton it's a problem ala Dockery and Peters. New England and the Steelers have the formula down on this.
Trader Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 He wants to be the highest paid OT in the league, how much would you pay him? 8.5 would be a fair and competitive salary. He just did not perform last year as good as several other OT's. I question his work ethic and desire for the game now more than ever. If Jason Peters was a hardcore leader down in the dirt annimal of a lineman no doubt I would pay him top tackle money. He is not. I too question his commttment to the game and to the Bills. Peters just may be the kind of player to take the bonus money and coast. I hate that he showed up out of shape last year. He is not a guy that you are going to build a championship around. Off load him now while he has value. Use the picks and trade down strategies. A holdout would be the worst case. The OL needs time to gel get players who want to play and are hungry. Sacrafice a little talent for a lot of desire and motivation.
Bill from NYC Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 I guess the question is: do you want five Langston Walker types on your line, or Jason Peters and four Geoff Hangarteners, or Peters, Walker, and three Kirk Chambers. In terms of quality, not position of course. If a team drafts properly, it is possible to have a star LT and a very talented Guard next to him Mike. To do so, a team must make blocking a priority. The Seahawks drafted Hutchinson and put him right next to Walter Jones. We drafted Nate Clements. The Patriots drafted Logan Mankins and he started next to Light. We had traded that pick for JP Losman and used our first selection on Roscoe Parrish. Both teams went to the Superbowl based on good management and coaching philosophy, while the Bills swirled around the toilet bowl with TD and Dick Levy doing the flushing.
Thurman#1 Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 How much would you pay him, do you believe he should be the highest OT in the game? I feel a raise to 8.5 puts him is fair and dont forget we still have him under contract for the next two years. We should be willing to pay him about $10 mill/ year and possibly a fraction higher. Whoever we would trade him to would do that. Two years from now there'll be ten guys or more making better money. Last year we could have had him for $8. This year, the price goes up, and that $8 looks like it would have been a bargain. Next year it will go up again, and so on. A great player at one of the most crucial position in the game. You simply pay him. All the stuff we are seeing now, from both sides, is bargaining and posturing. He'll be a Bill for the next 6 or 7 years minimum and we'll be thrilled about it.
ieatcrayonz Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 If a team drafts properly, it is possible to have a star LT and a very talented Guard next to him Mike. To do so, a team must make blocking a priority. The Seahawks drafted Hutchinson and put him right next to Walter Jones. We drafted Nate Clements. The Patriots drafted Logan Mankins and he started next to Light. We had traded that pick for JP Losman and used our first selection on Roscoe Parrish. Both teams went to the Superbowl based on good management and coaching philosophy, while the Bills swirled around the toilet bowl with TD and Dick Levy doing the flushing. I agree with you about setting the priority on the line. I don't think the Bills have done enough of that. I'm not so sure I agree that we simply need to pay Peters a huge salaray and hope he will put more effort into 2009. To me, that seems to put a lot of our future into hoping for the best. When we had guys like Hull and House, we knew they were coming to play. Those guys had talent and desire in equal measure. It was obvious. The talent is obvious with Peters, but the heart is not. I would like to see the Bills get Waters and then do some serious drafting along the OL. I'd like to see 2 of the 1st 4 picks be OL. With Peters, I am of the opinion that you have to look at all options. You can only do your best in guessing how he'd prepare and play if tons of money were to be thrown at him. If they think he'll step up, then sign him. If not, I'd prefer a trade to letting him pout and play poorly for two years. If they pay him and they're wrong about his work ethic, then we will be in a long term bind. Be careful Bills.
Bill from NYC Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 I agree with you about setting the priority on the line. I don't think the Bills have done enough of that. I'm not so sure I agree that we simply need to pay Peters a huge salaray and hope he will put more effort into 2009. To me, that seems to put a lot of our future into hoping for the best. When we had guys like Hull and House, we knew they were coming to play. Those guys had talent and desire in equal measure. It was obvious. The talent is obvious with Peters, but the heart is not. I would like to see the Bills get Waters and then do some serious drafting along the OL. I'd like to see 2 of the 1st 4 picks be OL. With Peters, I am of the opinion that you have to look at all options. You can only do your best in guessing how he'd prepare and play if tons of money were to be thrown at him. If they think he'll step up, then sign him. If not, I'd prefer a trade to letting him pout and play poorly for two years. If they pay him and they're wrong about his work ethic, then we will be in a long term bind. Be careful Bills. Can't believe I'm typing this, but great post crayonz! There is a ton of merit in what you say about motivation being an unknown wrt Peters, as well as your comments about drafting blockers. Now.....please be honest.....do you believe that the Dick Levy ship of fools is actually going to do this? Do you think for 1 second that if we get an extra first round pick that Dick Levy isn't going to use it on a defensive back? The fact that Peters is even on the team at all is dumb ass luck. In other words, if we a proven GM running things, perhaps I would be more open to a trade based on the reasons you list.
ieatcrayonz Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 Can't believe I'm typing this, but great post crayonz! There is a ton of merit in what you say about motivation being an unknown wrt Peters, as well as your comments about drafting blockers. Now.....please be honest.....do you believe that the Dick Levy ship of fools is actually going to do this? Do you think for 1 second that if we get an extra first round pick that Dick Levy isn't going to use it on a defensive back? The fact that Peters is even on the team at all is dumb ass luck. In other words, if we a proven GM running things, perhaps I would be more open to a trade based on the reasons you list. I do think the Bills would address OL if they traded Peters for a pick. You have to remember that one of the first things the new regime did was to sign Walker and Dockery. Although it did not work out with Dockery, he was highly regarded. In one day, they spent a ton of money on 40% of the line. I think the drafting of Bell was an attempt to again catch lightning in a bottle a la Peters. It is ok to try something like that and I think we all hope it works. IF Dockery had worked out and Peters was happy with his contract, we would be in pretty good shape at OL and looking to draft a Center and depth. That didn't happen but not all plans work. I think Levy/Jauron at least had a plan. Donahoe did not fully address the line at all. Parrish/Everett? That is a lot worse than McKelvin. If Peters is gone for a #1 though, you simply have to draft a top flight LT prospect and/or sign a bridge player like Pace. The Bills will realize this. With respect to DBs I don't share your opinion. I think each of our drafted DBs have been a result of looking at the roster, the defensive schemes and contract situations. We drafted Whitner because we had an absolute void there and a player like him is needed in Jauron's preferred defense. You can certainly convince me that the Cover 2 is not our best choice, but if the cover two is a given, a Whitner is needed. McKelvin is very talented and the status of our DB contracts entering 08 helped dictate that this was a reasonable pick. I know McGee's contract is up and I doubt we'll pay him enough, but I also think the Bills will see the bigger picture this draft. We may draft a DB sooner than you'd like...maybe in the 4th or even 3rd, but we won't use a high pick there unless a real stud safety drops into round 2.
DanInSouthBuffalo Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 We may draft a DB sooner than you'd like...maybe in the 4th or even 3rd, but we won't use a high pick there unless a real stud safety drops into round 2. I'll have a fit if they do that. The screaming needs are for pass-rush help, offensive line at guard and center (like who is the backup for Handgartner?), and outside linebacker. The Bills always backtrack to other positions and leave key needs unaddressed. It speaks of poor talent evaluation, especially on the pro-personnel level where guys they sign end up getting cut before camp.
Recommended Posts