People say Ralph is not planning for after his passing

[Fingon]

You ever hear the expression "too many chefs"? I would not bet on this scenario.

 

PTR

Do you doubt Jack Kemp's ability to secure financing? He's one of a few politician's revered in the business community, in fact he second to only Ronny Reagan. Kemp is a board member on several large companies, and I don't doubt, for a second, that he could get $1 billion.

 

 

"Other than President Ronald Reagan himself, few people in the political world have had more influence on the last quarter century of wealth creation and rising levels of entrepreneurial business expansion than Jack F. Kemp."

- Steve Forbes

[PromoTheRobot]

I agree the free stadium is a better option financially, but the location leaves a lot to be desired (if their goal is to target the Toronto market).

Building a new stadium in the Toronto area is not an option (unless the new owner has some serious deep pockets as the Canadian govt's will do little to nothing to help, not to mention the potential for lackluster support).

Splitting games between RWS and the Roger is a short term solution. As I said previously, the Roger is too small. The lost revenue through direct and indirect streams (ticket sales, concessions, etc...) means increased prices (as we already have seen).

That's not going to go over well long term. Also, throw in the potential for lack luster support by the Canadian fan (as we have also already seen*), and this option is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

 

* To many people automatically assumed that Canadiens would openly embrace an NFL team. Based on the schedules, the NFL team will be competing directly against the CFL team for fans. It's one thing for the NFL to be "next door", and it is quite another thing for the NFL to be in their "back yard".

 

That's why a larger (than the Roger) stadium, near the border, and as close to Toronto as possible makes the most "sense".

It would allow the NFL to tap into the Toronto market without stepping into their "backyard".

 

As for Niagara county saying "no" to the Bills: I-D-I-O-T-S.

 

I was thinking of a domed ( ) stadium being part of a entertainment/tourism/convention center complex. Niagara county may be more inclined to say "yes" if the new building was more than just a stadium.

 

Plus, doesn't the NFL offer some kind of "loan" to owners to aid in building new stadiums?

 

> Even in a smaller Rogers Centre they can make decent money with tickets at $120+ average. There would be no "lost" revenue. By the way, if my scenario should come to pass, expect Buffalo tickets to double in price. 5 games at the same price of 10. A new larger stadium would only make sense if the new owner can build it themselves. So don't expect it to happen for a while. Besides, a smaller stadium creates scarcity and increases demand.

 

> Face it, nobody would embrace a lame duck franchise like the Bills showing up at your door. But build a winner and people will show up. Toronto has not had a champion since the Blue Jays. I think it was Bill Parcells who said "winning is the best deodorant."

 

> Canadians are proud of the CFL but they aren't dummies...they know it's minor league football. Put a winning NFL team even part time in Toronto and they will pony up.

 

> Niagara County is smart for not trying to lure the Bills. They have built all kinds of stuff in Niagara Falls and none of it stops the town from sliding further. The problem is the border. You just can't border-hop. Otherwise it might make sense. Now if you built a stadium in NF, ON...

 

PTR

[rpcolosi]

Ding ding ding. They just need to convince the investors the despite all of Ralph's crying about small market and the Western NY economy (before the whole country/world crashed) he is still making money. Yes they won't make Dallas or Washington kind of cash but they will still turn a decent profit.

 

 

Kemp is 74 and already in worse health than Ralph so i wouldn't count on him doing much (unknown cancer stemming from a hip problem indicates most likely a bone cancer, which is not great at his age). There is a chance he may lose some of his clout even before Ralph's passing.

 

The best thing we have going for us is that Bills 'fans' or those with connections to the team are in significantly important positions - throughout the media, league and, yes, politics. Staring with the aforementioned Kemp, Higgins and Schumer both value the economic vitality the Bills bring to the region and will be the staunchest allies. Throughout the media, such people as Vic Carruci, Gregg Easterbrook, Chris Berman, Tim Graham, Don Criqui, Luke Russert, Nick Bakay and the entire MNF broadcast team (Jaws, Kornheiser and Tirico all UpState NY guys)are all on the national media stage and have voices that stretch far and wide around the country. When the Seattle Super Sonics left Seattle, they lacked this type of attention and support. This will be a national issue if/when relocation comes about...

 

And finally the league itself. Having the Commish hometown within our region is without a doubt a great asset. He grew up in this region and knows the importance of keeping this team in Buffalo as well as any of us. He does have our interests at heart. Not to mention, so many vital people have come in and through here - From Marty Schottenheimer to Bill Polian.

 

If there is talk of moving us when Ralph passes, God Bless Him, expect to hear a huge, huge uproar from this community.

[Cynical]

the decision isnt between keeping the stadium in orchard park and putting a new shiny one in NF.

 

The decision would be new facility (somewhere) vs. RWS in Orchard Park.

 

Well, duh. That's why I pointed out the stadium is presently sitting in OP, with a drive of 1 hr 54 min. for a fan from Toronto.

Moving the stadium to Buffalo would only save that driver 15 minutes.

The increased influx of Canadian dollars would be a minimal, if any, especially among the corporates.

 

Moving the stadium even closer to Toronto increases the potential for Canadians to attend the game, and for the corporate dollars the NFL seeks.

 

Then the decision would be where. Whether the Buffalo waterfront, OP, or elsewhere. In this case, it would be extremely probable it would be located in Erie County, and a good chance in Buffalo.

 

Building a new stadium in Buffalo does virtually nothing. The new stadium will be subjected to the same economic pressures the old one is faced with:

* a declining popluation

* few corporations

* a shrinking economy

[PromoTheRobot]

Do you doubt Jack Kemp's ability to secure financing? He's one of a few politician's revered in the business community, in fact he second to only Ronny Reagan. Kemp is a board member on several large companies, and I don't doubt, for a second, that he could get $1 billion.

I don't share your optimism at all. I think you underestimate how difficult it is to raise that sort of cash, and get people to agree with your vision. Plus all those investors will want a return on their money. How are they going to do that in Buffalo? You think Ralph is cheap? You ain't seen nothing yet.

 

PTR

[PromoTheRobot]

Kemp is 74 and already in worse health than Ralph so i wouldn't count on him doing much (unknown cancer stemming from a hip problem indicates most likely a bone cancer, which is not great at his age). There is a chance he may lose some of his clout even before Ralph's passing.

 

The best thing we have going for us is that Bills 'fans' or those with connections to the team are in significantly important positions - throughout the media, league and, yes, politics. Staring with the aforementioned Kemp, Higgins and Schumer both value the economic vitality the Bills bring to the region and will be the staunchest allies. Throughout the media, such people as Vic Carruci, Gregg Easterbrook, Chris Berman, Tim Graham, Don Criqui, Luke Russert, Nick Bakay and the entire MNF broadcast team (Jaws, Kornheiser and Tirico all UpState NY guys)are all on the national media stage and have voices that stretch far and wide around the country. When the Seattle Super Sonics left Seattle, they lacked this type of attention and support. This will be a national issue if/when relocation comes about...

 

And finally the league itself. Having the Commish hometown within our region is without a doubt a great asset. He grew up in this region and knows the importance of keeping this team in Buffalo as well as any of us. He does have our interests at heart. Not to mention, so many vital people have come in and through here - From Marty Schottenheimer to Bill Polian.

 

If there is talk of moving us when Ralph passes, God Bless Him, expect to hear a huge, huge uproar from this community.

 

There was plenty of uproar in Cleveland. It didn't stop Modell. Same in Baltimore. How did that all work out? Luckily for both cities the NFL came back. Don't think for one second the NFL would return to Buffalo.

 

All the celebs you mention are great but don't add to a hill of beans. The biggest ally we have is Goodell but, like I said in my original post, he's there to make money, not be sentimental. That's why I believe Toronto is the plan. Use Toronto to justify keeping the Bills connected to Buffalo, even its only part time.

 

PTR

[Johnny_OH]

Niagara County has not voted it down they voted to be ready when Erie County comes calling and when they no i nterest in keeping the Bills anymore. They are in support of keeping the Bills in WNY so they are ready and willing to embrace the conversation

 

[quote name, niagara county has already voted down wanting the bills moved there.

[jax bill backer]

being godell is from jamestown... it would be shere embarrasment if the team moved in his tenure

[Yoho]

It is all about debt coverage people. Simply put, revenues must exceed the cost of covering the debt that the new owners will incur. The revenues are from television revenue (pretty much split), ticket sale revenues (we have the lowest prices in the league), corporate box revenues (we have had trouble selling out before undertaking our more regional approach) and personal seat licenses (we don't have). The debt is the cost of the purchase of the team and the cost of the stadium lease (the one thing we have going for us).

 

In order for this team to stay in Buffalo, we need to get those revenues to exceed the debt by more that can could be obtained by moving the team. The Toronto idea is entirely about augmenting the revenue stream without incurring any more debt. This happens through increased revenue from ticket sales and the ability to sell more corporate boxes (to Canadian companies) in Buffalo.

 

The good news is that there are very few cities with NFL ready stadiums and far less ability for growing municipalities to payroll a new stadium. Toronto games offer our best hope to remain competitive and keep the team. Emotional responses that get all nationalistic or proclaim that somehow Ralph Wilson does not care about Buffalo are just not facing the economic realties here.

[rpcolosi]

There was plenty of uproar in Cleveland. It didn't stop Modell. Same in Baltimore. How did that all work out? Luckily for both cities the NFL came back. Don't think for one second the NFL would return to Buffalo.

 

All the celebs you mention are great but don't add to a hill of beans. The biggest ally we have is Goodell but, like I said in my original post, he's there to make money, not be sentimental. That's why I believe Toronto is the plan. Use Toronto to justify keeping the Bills connected to Buffalo, even its only part time.

 

PTR

 

 

you are right that toronto is indeed part of the plan to keep them here. Why wouldn't we use a wealthier city to our advantage? but that does not mean relocate. It means tapping into a larger corporate base for as much wealth as possible. I'd rather see training camp in Canada and preseason games in Rochester to be honest but I don't see Brandon going back on his home town.

 

In regards to the Browns leaving, it was similar to the Sonics - lots of uproar within their community but hardly at a national level. And more so, that team was moving to an Original NFL Team location in Baltimore. That is a far different dynamic than competing with another sports league in a city that already has 3 professional 'american' sports franchises and has no prior ties to the NFL. So you can't compare Moddell's blunder to this.

 

Finally, as you correctly pointed out, the Bills need Toronto corporations to remain viable. We need their American and Canadian business' to drive up the value of suites and boxes at the Ralph. Even if 5 large Toronto HQed Companies such as Rogers Comm, Scotia Bank, Bell Canada, etc buy suites at the Ralph it is a success. Consider that we didn't even have a radio presence in Toronto prior to '07 nor did we have a ticket office there. Doing so now can increase the number of fans to draw and the number of businesses (large or small) to start investing at the Ralph now...

 

I don't know if we need to split the season half and half with Toronto in the future. Rather, I think Goodell wants to see after 5 years how our expanded presence into Southern Ontario works. If we sell higher priced suites and boxes, continue selling out all games, and have an increase in merchandise revenue, this will show Goodell and the league that we are a viable franchise and are drawing to our maximum regional capacity. We are #27 out of 32 teams and are in the 2nd smallest market. This bodes well that we are out performing other 'larger' cities...

 

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/30/sports...lls_301765.html

[May Day 10]

people in Toronto arent going to get behind "Buffalo's team". If they do get behind it, it is going to be them getting behind "The Team that Is Going To Move to Toronto".

[rpcolosi]

people in Toronto arent going to get behind "Buffalo's team". If they do get behind it, it is going to be them getting behind "The Team that Is Going To Move to Toronto".

 

tell that to teh 15,000 canadians coming to every bills game...

[cody]

There is another angle on the Toronto deal that people on this board have not discussed.

 

The Toronto deal runs until 2012. I would not be surprised if the deal isn't extended and expanded in the next 12 months.

Anyone who wants to buy the Bills, would still be bound by the contract between Rogers and the Bills. Meaning they either have to buy out the deal, at an outrageous price, or allow the team to play one (or two) games in Toronto.

 

The Toronto deal is Ralph's way of creating a 'poison pill' for any future buyers who want to move the Bills.*

 

 

 

*unless those buyers want to move the team to Toronto.

[PromoTheRobot]

There is another angle on the Toronto deal that people on this board have not discussed.

 

The Toronto deal runs until 2012. I would not be surprised if the deal isn't extended and expanded in the next 12 months.

Anyone who wants to buy the Bills, would still be bound by the contract between Rogers and the Bills. Meaning they either have to buy out the deal, at an outrageous price, or allow the team to play one (or two) games in Toronto.

 

The Toronto deal is Ralph's way of creating a 'poison pill' for any future buyers who want to move the Bills.*

 

 

 

*unless those buyers want to move the team to Toronto.

 

As I mentioned earlier, the Rogers payments could be a partial down payment.

 

PTR

[TheLynchTrain]

This is a very, very accurate assessment of the state of the economics of the NFL and the current fiscal issues surrounding out franchise. I think anyone opposed to expanding our presence in southern ontario really needs to evaluate whether they want a competitive team or not. The reason the Bills can not compete at this point in time is we simply do not have the same cash flow as other teams. People need to understand, Ralph became a multi-millionaire through owning the Bills. he is not Dan Snyder or Robert Kraft who have private enterprises kicking them a paycheck as well. Ralph and his family owned insurance companies and sporting good stores in Michigan. He is wealthy because of his investment in the Bills, not in addition to.

 

Thus, expanding and regionalizing the franchise is easily the wisest move. Goodell more than anyone is aware of the impact of the bills on the WNY economy and I believe will keep the team here as long as it remains viable. The additional income from Toronto is allowing us to do so, whether we like it or not. TV deals and revenue sharing alone are not enough to keep this franchise afloat. If the new CBA changes to sub 60% player income share and adjusts to a cap or ratio on draft pick salaries, then we are able to compete more so than now. This is why Ralph and Brown were against the original CBA. That extra 5-10mil towards player salaries under a 60% share is not sustainable in any small market.

 

Finally, your point on ownership and debt is valid. Unless Jimbo has some big NYC fat cat lined up to buy the team with cash (see the Dolan family buying the Tribe in 01), the new owner will have some debt. The most likely scenario still is that Jacobs sells the Bruins soon, especially with their value being higher this year than at any other point of the past 25+ years. Assuming the franchise nets ~$200mil, he is able to be the majority owner of the bills with a few smaller investors (see Jimbo, thurman, Hamister, etc) or the solo owner with a set amount of debt. Thankfully our stadium is "free" and that eliminates the need for further financing....

 

So in the end, pray Ralph can live a bit longer, the bruins with the Stanley cup, and that Toronto is dumb enough to keep giving us $75mil deals for a fraction of our games. It kept the Packers around, we are the GB of the AFC...

 

Go Bills.

 

I thought of this the other day: why wouldn't the Steinbrenner's buy the team? Steinbrenner was a good friend of Saban's (yeah it would have helped if he was alive to push George to stick it to Ralph). But Steinbrenner made his money with American Shipbuilding Company, which had some origins in Buffalo.

 

Yeah, his sons control the most famous team in all of sports (and richest), but what rich guy doesnt want to get into football? This could be their chance to get a team on the cheap...teams dont go up for sale too often.

 

Yeah, its a pipedream, but can you imagine the Steinbrenner's running the Bills? Hank screaming and breathing down Jauron or Brandons face?

 

Oh a man can still dream can't he?

[Cynical]

> Even in a smaller Rogers Centre they can make decent money with tickets at $120+ average. There would be no "lost" revenue. By the way, if my scenario should come to pass, expect Buffalo tickets to double in price (1). 5 games at the same price of 10. A new larger stadium would only make sense if the new owner can build it themselves. So don't expect it to happen for a while. Besides, a smaller stadium creates scarcity and increases demand. (2)

 

1) Do that and watch the riot that takes place. The Bills have the lowest (or second lowest) average ticket price in the NFL. The prices are not the way because the Bills organization wants to be "nice" to the community. If they could charge a higher price, they would.

 

2) scarcity only increases demand. That assumes there is a demand in the first place.

 

> Face it, nobody would embrace a lame duck franchise like the Bills showing up at your door. But build a winner and people will show up. Toronto has not had a champion since the Blue Jays. I think it was Bill Parcells who said "winning is the best deodorant."

 

You're right. And one aspect of those championships were the Canadians gleefully noting how a Canadian team beat the Americans at their own game.

 

> Canadians are proud of the CFL but they aren't dummies...they know it's minor league football. Put a winning NFL team even part time in Toronto and they will pony up.

 

You would be surprised by the number of Canadians that do not share your view point. In fact, you may be shocked by the number of Canadians that actually feel their game is superior.

As I said before: * To many people automatically assumed that Canadiens would openly embrace an NFL team.

 

Do NOT under estimate the power and influence of the culture in a society on what it will and will not accept. Especially when the society feels its culture may be over run by a foreign culture.

 

> Niagara County is smart for not trying to lure the Bills. They have built all kinds of stuff in Niagara Falls and none of it stops the town from sliding further. The problem is the border. You just can't border-hop. Otherwise it might make sense. Now if you built a stadium in NF, ON...

 

PTR

 

Putting the stadium (or stadium complex) in Niagara Falls, NY is not just about "border hopping". It's about tapping that potential corporate market in Toronto, without making the average Canadian feel like the American culture is invading their territory.