The Dean Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Actually, they did come to an agreement... ...on a contract at a different position. He and the Bills have failed to work out a deal for his new, more highly compensated, duties. I notice you don't have a problem with the Bills cutting Dockery, when they had a deal with him, too. What about the contract?
Canadian Bills Fan Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 I am so sick of hearing about Peters lol
bluv Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Another overlooked fact (besides coverage sacks!) is how much help does a LT need. Yeah Walker only gave up 2,3 sacks maybe but he always has a RB or TE chip a LDE before they release into their patterns. A lot of sacks are just about good timing and luck. You know the same guys who dogg Schoebel for getting gimmick sacks but not generating consistent pressure (which BTW isn't totally true regarding Schoebel but that is for another discussion!) It is like a DB on one side shutting down a top WR one on one for the whole game but allowing one or two big gainer as he mistimes a break on the ball. The other DB will have safety help and not give up any catches but never gives the coaching staff confidence in matching up one-on-one. Some will say that the WR won the battle against a top DB and that maybe the other DB playing with help is a solid player but they may not recognize the scheme and the help that DB gets. Take Jerry Porter for instance, if you look at the stats he killed the Bills. But if you watch the games, besides the plays where he actually sacked the QB he was nuetralized by Peters and pretty much a non-factor as he couldn't generate consistent pressure. I think back to the days where Bruce would constantly get close to smashing Dan Marino but he'd feel the pressure and get rid of the ball with his quick release. Since Bruce got zero sacks, LT Richmond Webb would get all the credit for shutting Bruce down. Now on the other hand, Tony Bosseli totally neutralized Bruce a couple of games where he didn't even come close to Brunnell. See the philosophy, stats don't tell the whole story!
papazoid Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 playing devil's advocate.....why is it ok for the team to cut a player that is not playing up to the value/worth of his contract.....but most think a player should play under his existing contract?......having said that, i still think the bills hold all the cards, peters has two years left on his current contract plus however many they choose to franchise tag him. the going rate for an all pro LT is $12 million, they already offered him $8 million (which is absolutely the right number), he currently makes $4 million, so if he holds out and only plays half the season, the bills are still getting their money's worth. Obviously he is underpaid, i do believe he is all pro talent in his prime (excluding last year's hold out), they should attempt to re-do his deal, which they are, but don't over pay. play hardball and let him sit home. All pro left tackles are just to valuable to just give away. nobody is irreplaceable, but i would need two #1 draft choices to get equal value....one #1 is just not enough.
thebandit27 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 playing devil's advocate.....why is it ok for the team to cut a player that is not playing up to the value/worth of his contract.....but most think a player should play under his existing contract?......having said that, i still think the bills hold all the cards, peters has two years left on his current contract plus however many they choose to franchise tag him. the going rate for an all pro LT is $12 million, they already offered him $8 million (which is absolutely the right number), he currently makes $4 million, so if he holds out and only plays half the season, the bills are still getting their money's worth. Obviously he is underpaid, i do believe he is all pro talent in his prime (excluding last year's hold out), they should attempt to re-do his deal, which they are, but don't over pay. play hardball and let him sit home. All pro left tackles are just to valuable to just give away. nobody is irreplaceable, but i would need two #1 draft choices to get equal value....one #1 is just not enough. Couple of things here: - Peters is scheduled to make $2.35M this season, not $4M - $8M is NOT the right number. Players don't take less than other guys whom they've outperformed. He's a better player than Jordan Gross, and has the resume' to prove it. If Peters took $8M, the Players' Union would go ballistic on him. - They can let him sit all they want, but an unhappy LT is an under-performing LT. What people refuse to acknowledge is this: eventually, if you want to have top-tier talent for an extended period of time, you will have to pay them as such. Peters is a phenomenal talent that has proven himself on the field. Half of a sub-par season, which resulted from a long drawn-out contract dispute, does not change that. The best thing for the team is to pay him, shoring up the LT position for the foreseeable future, and move onto the draft.
The Dean Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 What people refuse to acknowledge is this: eventually, if you want to have top-tier talent for an extended period of time, you will have to pay them as such. Peters is a phenomenal talent that has proven himself on the field. Half of a sub-par season, which resulted from a long drawn-out contract dispute, does not change that. Bingo! That's the bottom line, right there. Now, some will argue that Peters isn't a "top tier" LT. Fair enough, if that's what you think, but it's hardly fair to use last year as the measure, as he missed all of camp and preseason. Yes, it's his fault (to some degree) that he missed it, but I don't thin you can argue that last season is a true representation of his play. EDIT: According to NFLPA Peters is scheduled to make $3,800,000 in 2009.
CookieG Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Can Peters run blocking be that good? Heck no. I dunno, the Bills finished 2nd in the league in running over left end, with a 5.79 ypc. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
Thoner7 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 How Many Sacks Each LT Gave Up in 2009-2009 1. Ryan Clady, Denver, 0.5 sack 2. Michael Roos, Tennessee, 1 sack PRO BOWLER 3-T. Tony Ugoh, Indianapolis, 2 sacks* (Started 11) 3-T. Tra Thomas, Philadelphia, 2 sacks 3-T. Jared Gaither, Baltimore, 2 sacks* (He missed first quarter of Philadelphia game because of a shoulder injury) 7. Jake Long, Miami, 2.5 sacks 8-T. Marcus McNeill, San Diego, 3 sacks* (13 games) 8-T. Chris Samuels, Washington, 3 sacks* (Only appeared in 12 games) 8-T. Jordan Gross, Carolina, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game) PRO BOWLER 8-T. Jammal Brown, New Orleans, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game) 8-T. Todd Weiner, Atlanta, 3 sacks* (Started 10 games and appeared in 15) 13-T. Joe Thomas, Cleveland, 3.5 sacks PRO BOWLER 13-T. Walter Jones, Seattle, 3.5 sacks* (12 games) PRO BOWLER 15-T. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, NY Jets, 4 sacks 15-T. Bryant McKinnie, Minnesota, 4 sacks* (11 games) 15-T. Max Starks, Pittsburgh, 4 sacks* (10 starts) 18. Brandon Albert, Kansas City, 4.5 sacks* (Missed 1 game) 19. Levi Jones, Cincinnati, 5.5 sacks* (10 games) 20. Mike Gandy, Arizona, 6.25 sacks 21-T. Chad Clifton, Green Bay, 6.5 sacks* (missed 1 game) 21-T. David Diehl, NY Giants, 6.5 sacks 23. Flozell Adams, Dallas, 7.25 PRO BOWLER 24-T. Khalif Barnes, Jacksonville, 7.5 sacks 24-T. Matt Light, New England, 7.5 sacks 24-T. Kwame Harris, 7.5 sacks* (Started 11, appeared in 13) 27. Donald Penn, Tampa Bay, 8 sacks 28. Joe Staley, San Francisco, 8.5 sacks 29. Jeff Backus, Detroit, 9.25 sacks 30. John St. Clair, Chicago, 9.75 sacks T-31. Duane Brown, Houston, 11.5 sacks T-31. Jason Peters, Buffalo, 11.5 sacks* PRO BOWLER (13 games) I bolded the names of the rookie tackles from last years class. 3 other rookie tackles played RT or where injured. Sam Bakeris not on the list, but I thought he played LT for the Flacons. Maybe he did in the few games their other tackle missed. From what I heard he played very well. Bottom line is its a lot easier to find a quality LT than people think, especially with the class coming out this year. One of the Bolded rookies, B.Albert, played Guard in college because one of this years prospects was so good. IF Peters is comepletely unreasonable in his contract demands, I think trading him is a good option. We would need to come away with two first day picks though, one in the first round. Im not trading away a good player for one pick, because I am going to have to replace that player. We need two picks to make it worth it.
Alphadawg7 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Many with both. More importantly, how many sacks early in the year and how many late? He was playing extremely well again late in the year. No he wasnt...not sure which Bills team people have been watching, but he struggled all year. Why do people keep making excuses for him because he held out...look at the facts around that... 1. He goes about gettting a new contract in the exact opposite way he should have (and only 1 year into his other new deal). 2. Trying to become the highest paid LT in football, he sits around and gets way out of shape. 3. Comes in unconditioned because he sat around all off season pouting about a new contract, despite the fact he KNEW the moment he got this HUGE contract he was going to have to come out immediately and perform. He did NOT care enough about the team to stay in shape so that way once he was paid he could step in and perform up to that contract. Most importantly, an ELITE player doesnt take all year to get into game shape. He should have been back to full form within the first few games, so the excuse he held out does not justify his inconsistent play in the second half of the season. Add in that he was playing at that point for this huge contract and he still couldnt put it together. And the whole argument about the "stats arent official" is just an excuse. The fact remains, official or not, even with a margin of error of say 3 like someone said, he still severly underperformed in relation to his contract. In fact, if we had paid him last year and he put up that lame year, you all would be calling the FO ididts for over paying him like we did with Schobel, Dockery, etc. So, with only 1, just 1, dominant year worthy of a huge contract that was in 2007, he just isnt worth the amount of money he wants IMO. Sure, he may find his form again, but there is no gaurantee and no justification for him to be the highest paid player at his position.
Deadstroke Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 I think he was, at times. Late in the year before he shut it down, to be precise. The conventional wisdom is that he was out of shape/practice early in the year due to the holdout and rounded into form as the season went on. But using sacks alone to form an opinion on a lineman's play is sketchy, in any case. To compare it to baseball, you're using errors alone to judge a player's defense, when you ought to use errors in conjunction with fielding percentage. There is no way to use stats alone to form a worthy opinion on a lineman's play...hell, its hard enough to do it with quarterbacks! The thing is, though, that it doesn't matter WHY he sucked early in the year, the jist is....just what did he produce for his team over the course of the year, not what was he perhaps capable of producing. Anyway, Boone, yeah, he's good alright, but the players and fans have a habit of voting in players based on reps an awful lot, not necessarily what they did in the past year. So he's good, but IMO not that good... certainly not last year, and certainly not highest paid left tackle in the game good!
KD in CA Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 ...on a contract at a different position. He and the Bills have failed to work out a deal for his new, more highly compensated, duties. NFL contracts specify a position? I didn't know that. I notice you don't have a problem with the Bills cutting Dockery, when they had a deal with him, too. What about the contract? Really? You actually took note of my opinion about Dockery being cut and still remember it a month later? Well, I'm flattered and all, but I don't recall posting my thoughts about it. Care to refresh my memory?
Ramius Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 He's a better player than Jordan Gross, and has the resume' to prove it. bull sh--. Complete bull sh--. Jordan Gross has played like a top level left tackle for his entire 6 year career, and is arguably the top LT in the game right now. Compare this to peters, how has showed 1 good season and 1 so-so season at LT. Peters has potential, but to say he's better than gross is a gross overestimation of Peters' ability. I would trade Peters for Gross in a heartbeat.
papazoid Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 just to clarify....$4 million is Jason Peters Cap number.......$8.9 million is the franchised tag value for Left Tackles like Jordan Gross. Peters does NOT deserve more than Gross......which is why i feel $8 million is a good offer. Players take less money ALL the time, like Randy Moss, Adalius Thomas, Tom Brady etc.... teams like the Redskins and Raiders pay top money and look where they wind up.....teams like New England, NY Giants and Pittsburgh do NOT over pay and see lots of their players go to other teams, yet are very succesful.
thebandit27 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 bull sh--. Complete bull sh--. Jordan Gross has played like a top level left tackle for his entire 6 year career, and is arguably the top LT in the game right now. Compare this to peters, how has showed 1 good season and 1 so-so season at LT. Peters has potential, but to say he's better than gross is a gross overestimation of Peters' ability. I would trade Peters for Gross in a heartbeat. First, thanks for being cordial and eloquent. You'd think that somone like yourself would do even the slightest amount of research before you refute a post. However, you clearly demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about... Gross played RT his rookie year, then moved to LT in year 2, moved back to RT when the team decided to move Travelle Wharton to LT in year 3. In fact, Gross didn't move back to LT until last year, when the team drafted Jeffrey Otah to play RT and moved Wharton to LG, so it's extremely stupid to say that he's played like a top level LT for his entire 6-year career when he spent 3+ years at RT. Gross also just made his first pro-bowl last year. To say that Peters is better than Jordan Gross is not an over-estimate. It's an evaluation of football ability. Peters was nearly unbeatable in 2006 at RT, so the team moved him to LT. He was nearly unbeatable at LT in 2007, on a level that Jordan Gross couldn't sniff. Personnel guys from around the league marvel at Peters. He's widely considered one of the top LTs in the game, but he's not good enough for you, because he wants to get paid like a top LT. You want the bottom line? He had a down year in 2008, due in-part to a lengthy holdout. Pay the man, and watch him go. It worked once, it will work again.
KD in CA Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 teams like New England, NY Giants and Pittsburgh do NOT over pay and see lots of their players go to other teams, yet are very succesful. That's because those are highly desirable teams to play for, with a proven record of respected ownership, competent management/coaching and a winning tradition. Buffalo offers none of that, and thus need to pony up the dough.
Ramius Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 First, thanks for being cordial and eloquent. You'd think that somone like yourself would do even the slightest amount of research before you refute a post. However, you clearly demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about... Gross played RT his rookie year, then moved to LT in year 2, moved back to RT when the team decided to move Travelle Wharton to LT in year 3. In fact, Gross didn't move back to LT until last year, when the team drafted Jeffrey Otah to play RT and moved Wharton to LG, so it's extremely stupid to say that he's played like a top level LT for his entire 6-year career when he spent 3+ years at RT. Gross also just made his first pro-bowl last year. To say that Peters is better than Jordan Gross is not an over-estimate. It's an evaluation of football ability. Peters was nearly unbeatable in 2006 at RT, so the team moved him to LT. He was nearly unbeatable at LT in 2007, on a level that Jordan Gross couldn't sniff. Personnel guys from around the league marvel at Peters. He's widely considered one of the top LTs in the game, but he's not good enough for you, because he wants to get paid like a top LT. You want the bottom line? He had a down year in 2008, due in-part to a lengthy holdout. Pay the man, and watch him go. It worked once, it will work again. Its my mistake on the switching back and forth from RT to LT, but Jordan Gross has been a very good OT his entire career, and in the past few years, he's vaulted into the upper echelon at LT. Just because the media doesn't pimp him doesn't mean he's not any good. Gross has proven his worth over the course of 6 years. Peters had a good 2006, but not unbeatable. He was very good in 2007 and then was overly mediocre in 2008. He's had 1.5 good seasons and 1 mediocre one. We dont know which one is the real peters. Forgive me for not wanting to make him the highest paid LT, just so he can spend his new signing bonus on KFC. There are serious questions about Peters' desire to play. I have some serious doubts that he'll give it his all once he gets a new huge contract. And i'll take Gross' 6 year track record over peter's 2.5 years of up and down play.
Magox Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 I've said this many times before. The NFL usually doesn't pay players in reward of their play, but on their potential. Everyone knows Peters did not have a good year by his standards last year. Also, everyone should know that he can play at a very high level as a LT, and is still in his mid to late 20's. Based on these two very important determinants, he will command a very high pay grade. The problem with rolling the dice with a rookie is not that he doesn't have the potential, because after all that is the basis of the high contract value, but it is can he do it at the next level? We know that Peters can. Are we pissed at his play from last year? yes. Is it justified that we believe he shouldn't get payed an elite level Tackle pay grade? yes. Is it realistic to believe that he won't get payed as an elite level Tackle? No. So, the question is, do we pay him and hope that he returns to the level that we know he can play? Or do we roll the dice on a rookie player who never has played at a high level in the NFL? I don't know about you guys, but I'd much rather pay a proven talent than an untested talent.
Adam Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Lets send him to the patriots.......braniacs...... Yeah, they'd NEVER want him....no way
thebandit27 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 just to clarify....$4 million is Jason Peters Cap number.......$8.9 million is the franchised tag value for Left Tackles like Jordan Gross. Peters does NOT deserve more than Gross......which is why i feel $8 million is a good offer. Players take less money ALL the time, like Randy Moss, Adalius Thomas, Tom Brady etc.... teams like the Redskins and Raiders pay top money and look where they wind up.....teams like New England, NY Giants and Pittsburgh do NOT over pay and see lots of their players go to other teams, yet are very succesful. First off, you provide no justification for why Peters doesn't deserve the same money. Here's my justification for my point: Peters: 2 pro bowls at LT in 2 seasons at the age of 27, Gross: 1 pro bowl at LT in 6 seasons (3+ of which he spent at RT) at the age of 28. Next, anyone can pick 3 players out of over 2,000 in the league and make a phony point. Care to see it done? Here you go (I'll even use the teams you suggested don't overpay for emphasis): The Giants paying David Diehl $33M over 4 years after he allegedly "gave up" 10.5 sacks in 2007 was not over-paying, by your definition? The Giants paid Chris Canty, a DE with 10 career sacks in 4 years, $41M over 6 years (same money as Aaron Schobel). Not over-paying? The Steelers paid Max Starks, their 3rd-string RT, over $7M last year under the Transition tag. They followed that up by Franchise tagging the guy again this year. Not over-paying? You may want to re-think your point.
thebandit27 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Its my mistake on the switching back and forth from RT to LT, but Jordan Gross has been a very good OT his entire career, and in the past few years, he's vaulted into the upper echelon at LT. Just because the media doesn't pimp him doesn't mean he's not any good. Gross has proven his worth over the course of 6 years. Peters had a good 2006, but not unbeatable. He was very good in 2007 and then was overly mediocre in 2008. He's had 1.5 good seasons and 1 mediocre one. We dont know which one is the real peters. Forgive me for not wanting to make him the highest paid LT, just so he can spend his new signing bonus on KFC. There are serious questions about Peters' desire to play. I have some serious doubts that he'll give it his all once he gets a new huge contract. And i'll take Gross' 6 year track record over peter's 2.5 years of up and down play. What basis do you have for saying this? When he reported, he was at the same weight as his playing weight from 2007. Why do you think the time between training camp and week 1 is about 8 weeks? Could it be because it takes a player about 8 weeks to get into game shape, regardless of how they spend their off-season? This isn't rocket science dude. As for his desire to play...you're right. Huge questions should be asked of a guy that went undrafted, went through two position changes, was thrown into live action with zero experience, and proceeded to become one of the best in the league at his position. Major questions. Am I the only one that thinks this entire discussion is ludicrous?
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