Stussy109 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 My 2 cents Walker Andre Smith Hangartner Butler Chambers OR Peters Andre Smith/Chambers Hangartner Butler Walker
Bill from NYC Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 My 2 cents Walker Andre Smith Hangartner Butler Chambers OR Peters Andre Smith/Chambers Hangartner Butler Walker Imo Levitre and Oher also offer very interesting options at LG. The thing is, I doubt that Levitre get passed NE or Pitt in round 1.
BillsVet Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Not to be picky, but he HAS started 27 games in the NFL. Indeed he has. However, the fact that Carolina drafted Ryan Kalil in the second round 07 tells me he wasn't thought of as much as a starter like he was a key reserve. The Bills are gambling that he can start AND play well against 3 of the better DT's in the NFL. I wouldn't doubt this move if the Bills brain-trust had more successes than failures over the past 3 seasons. For a team needing to make the playoffs, gambling on former reserves is something I'm not keen on.
ans4e64 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Indeed he has. However, the fact that Carolina drafted Ryan Kalil in the second round 07 tells me he wasn't thought of as much as a starter like he was a key reserve. The Bills are gambling that he can start AND play well against 3 of the better DT's in the NFL. I wouldn't doubt this move if the Bills brain-trust had more successes than failures over the past 3 seasons. For a team needing to make the playoffs, gambling on former reserves is something I'm not keen on. I agree, but to be fair, we don't know the Bills' plans for using him this year and beyond. As Bills fans, we all assume he was brought in to be our starting center because he was the only signing on the offensive line, but who knows? What if the Bills go and draft a center in the 2nd round, and Hangartner was brought in for depth all along? What if we sign a FA guard still? We won't know Hangartner's role until the season opener. Unfortunately, I think he was and will be a starter on this line, but I'll reserve my opinion on his play until after I've actually seen it (never have).
Lofton80 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Amazing that we are so bad on the Offensive Line and the front office reaction is to again go for the "patchwork " line. Sign Peters and draft a guard who can contribute now and I am elated. Not expecting it though. I respectfully disagree. Please consider this.....when have you felt confident about the Bills making a crucial first down on 3rd and short? Or, their defense stopping their opponents consistently on 3rd and long? I make the case that great defensive linemen do not need a great secondary. It helps, but the quickest and most efficient way to stop a football team is to out muscle them. On offense, a dominant OL is able to provide openings for not so great running backs. But, can a great back be expected to gain big yardage with sub-par blocking? I think not. Toss in adverse weather conditions to the above and it becomes clear that the Bills were improperly built. Now, after all of those early round defensive backs, some still say that we are thin at corner. Why? Because we lost an undrafted free agent.
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 The Bills have not seriously upgraded the OL in 15 years. Good teams build their OL thru the draft. Dick Levy has not spent a draft pick better than a 5th rounder on the OL under his watch. For the last 11 years, the Bills brain trust has spent all of 4 draft picks in the top 4 rounds (4 out of 48 picks)on the OL they have brought in numerous free agents who they sold as solid upgrades, but who were nothing more than castoffs and re-treads worse than the garbage they were replacing. Carolina needed to get better at C because their 5th round flyer on Hangaratner was not good enough. They spent a 2nd round pick on a real NFL caliber C and let Hangartner go to the Bills - who sell him to their fans as a big upgrade. He's a versatle backup who can't handle big nose tackles - as proven to the Carolina coaching staff by his being abused by Kris Jenkins for 3 years. Next - they voluntarily cut their LG before and without any hope of replacing him with an upgrade. Stupid and shortsighted. Worse- they refuse to extend the one guy on the OL with ProBowl talent and risk another season of distractions for no good reason. All of those skill position players will be wasted without an OL. Although not his fault, TO will totally destroy Trent's confidence be blasting him for not getting the ball down the field. Hard to throw from your back. Check out the starting o-lines on the Pats*, Colts, and Steelers and where they were drafted.
BillsVet Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Check out the starting o-lines on the Pats*, Colts, and Steelers and where they were drafted. Pats-Light (2nd) Mankins (1st) Koppen (5th) Neal and Kaczur (3rd). Steelers-Colon (4th) Essex (3rd) Starks (3rd) Kemoeautu (6th) Former OL Simmons (1st) and M. Smith (2) Colts-Ugoh (2nd) Pollak (2nd) Saturday (UDFA) Diem (4th). Every one of those teams does two things: Find talent in late rounds and draft solid OL on Day 1. The Bills don't draft OL early, with one notable exception, and they rarely find outstanding players late. Generally, they stock their roster with average players who are trumpeted as better.
BillsVet Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 I agree, but to be fair, we don't know the Bills' plans for using him this year and beyond. As Bills fans, we all assume he was brought in to be our starting center because he was the only signing on the offensive line, but who knows? What if the Bills go and draft a center in the 2nd round, and Hangartner was brought in for depth all along? What if we sign a FA guard still? We won't know Hangartner's role until the season opener. Unfortunately, I think he was and will be a starter on this line, but I'll reserve my opinion on his play until after I've actually seen it (never have). To be fair, the Bills have exactly 2 interior OL with NFL starting experience on their roster. If that makes you comfortable going against the 3-4 teams in the AFCE, that's just delusional. I don't have anything personal against Hangartner. He might be a good player. But it's a risk to trust him to be an everyday player, especially in the division. Just once, I'd like for them to add a proven player who is capable of excellent play. But I don't trust the front office to identify quality players and pursue them. Instead, they'll try to find the golden nugget in the bargain bin. And usually it doesn't work.
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Peters still has two years left on his deal. I don't anticipate him not being here. It's a matter of when, not if, he'll sign a deal. I don't expect the Bills to address the O-Line in the draft early, their first three picks will be DE, TE, OLB (not necessarily in that order). They may just add some late round O-Lineman for depth. I think our opening day rotation will be: Peters-Chambers-Hangartner-Butler-Walker. At first glance, that would have to be one of the worst lines in football.. Pro or College
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 I wouldn't kill myself if the line was as follows: LT- Walker LG- Unger/Robinson? C- Hangartner RG- Butler RT- Chambers/Bell Its not as good as it would be with Peters, but it seems pretty solid, in my opinion. Need to insert laugh track HERE
ans4e64 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 To be fair, the Bills have exactly 2 interior OL with NFL starting experience on their roster. If that makes you comfortable going against the 3-4 teams in the AFCE, that's just delusional. We were talking about if Hangartner was the starting center and how good he might be. Where did you come up with me feeling comfortable about us having no interior lineman with NFL starting experience on the roster? I don't have anything personal against Hangartner. He might be a good player. But it's a risk to trust him to be an everyday player, especially in the division. Just once, I'd like for them to add a proven player who is capable of excellent play. But I don't trust the front office to identify quality players and pursue them. Instead, they'll try to find the golden nugget in the bargain bin. And usually it doesn't work. You tell me what center was out there in free agency that is a "proven player" who is "capable of excellent play." Was it Birk, an older player who's game is not handling a 3-4 nose? Was it Jason Brown, a guy who thinks he deserves all the money in the world and wants to play LG? For the 20th time, I agree with you. But, there wasn't a center in free agency that would come in here and be a pro bowler. We all thought as fans that this offseason should accomplish improving the interior of the offensive line. We haven't even gotten to the draft, or the summer cap casualties, and you want to throw away the offseason as a failure. Let me be the first to say that I am not happy with what the Bills have done up to this point. We have no quality starters on the interior, and no bodies to even back them up in case of injury. I would have at least liked to see another veteran guard in here. The point that I am making is lets actually get through the draft first and see who we end up with before we rip the front office for not filling personel holes. I still think the Bills will sign another interior lineman.
SABURZFAN Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 I wouldn't kill myself if the line was as follows: LT- Walker LG- Unger/Robinson? C- Hangartner RG- Butler RT- Chambers/Bell Its not as good as it would be with Peters, but it seems pretty solid, in my opinion. i don't see that being solid whatsoever.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 i don't see that being solid whatsoever. Three decent players, one weak link (right tackle), and a highly-rated rookie. 'Pretty solid' seems accurate to me. It wouldn't be the best line in football, but it would also be far from the worst. Whether Peters is here or not, its up to Trent Edwards to become our Kurt Warner, allowing us to become the Cardinals: a high-powered offense, despite a mediocre offensive line. The skill positions are jam-packed with talent, and therefore set up perfectly to emulate Arizona. Peters would absolutely make things easier on him, but whether Peters is here or not, its up to Edwards. Early last year, when Edwards played well, and Peters was either on the bench or below his potential, Buffalo had success. When Edwards went down, Losman was awful, and they lost. Likewise, when Trent returned and was awful, the Bills continued to lose-- despite the fact that this is when Peters was supposedly back to his Pro Bowl form. Good quarterback play equals wins, lousy quarterback play equals losses...regardless of Peters' status. Again, it would absolutely help Edwards to have big #71 on his left, I wanna be clear on that. But Walker would be still be competent at protecting his blind side to the point that, if Trent is the guy, it ought to come shining through. We'll just have to keep our fingers crossed and hope he's up to it. Just one fan's opinion.
SABURZFAN Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Three decent players, one weak link (right tackle), and a highly-rated rookie. 'Pretty solid' seems accurate to me. It wouldn't be the best line in football, but it would also be far from the worst. i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Thurman#1 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Time for the Bills to sign Peters - get him into OTA's and camp and move on. The picture of their line is ugly without him. With him in the line up this is how the picture changes: LT - Peters/ Walker (depends on whether the Bills move Walker if Peters is injured)/ Bell LG - Chambers / Bell C -Hangartner / Draft Choice RG - Butler /Draft Choice RT - Walker /Bell Assuming Chambers plays as well as if not better than Dockery we have an upgraded unit with solid depth if the Bills draft well. Well-thought out post. You had me shivering just imagining that first lineup. I do disagree with one thing, though, and that is your projected guards in the depth chart if we sign Peters. You had Chambers/Bell at LG, and I would instead put it as Chambers/draft choice. If we do draft an o-line guy anywhere in the first three rounds, he is likely to start at LG or at least be given a chance to beat out Chambers. If we drafted Mack or one of the three or four other centers who aren't quite as good, we might move Hangartner over to LG if he loses the job. Butler, when healthy, has been probably our second-best guy. Just saying. But man, are you ever right about the disaster that would be created if we trade Peters.
BuffaloBill Posted March 30, 2009 Author Posted March 30, 2009 point that I am making is lets actually get through the draft first and see who we end up with before we rip the front office for not filling personel holes. I still think the Bills will sign another interior lineman. Point of the thread was to argue that the front office needs to get Peters deal done so there is a little less pressure in the draft. You also miss the fact that D-Line and TE and perhaps LB are also areas of need on the team. If we have to draft another LT because the Bills botch the Peters situation we are just treading water. The other point in the thread was to show that failing to sign Peters has a domino effect. Walker probably has to move, Chambers has to move and you are lost likely going to have to start a rookie guard. Perhaps Bell is in this mix also but he is far from proven and has no NFL starting experience - so in effect he is a rookie. Finally, I was simply trying to suggest that the Bills need to put the Peters deal to bed before the draft. They can then focus on other issues.
Thurman#1 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Three decent players, one weak link (right tackle), and a highly-rated rookie. 'Pretty solid' seems accurate to me. It wouldn't be the best line in football, but it would also be far from the worst. Whether Peters is here or not, its up to Trent Edwards to become our Kurt Warner, allowing us to become the Cardinals: a high-powered offense, despite a mediocre offensive line. The skill positions are jam-packed with talent, and therefore set up perfectly to emulate Arizona. Peters would absolutely make things easier on him, but whether Peters is here or not, its up to Edwards. Early last year, when Edwards played well, and Peters was either on the bench or below his potential, Buffalo had success. When Edwards went down, Losman was awful, and they lost. Likewise, when Trent returned and was awful, the Bills continued to lose-- despite the fact that this is when Peters was supposedly back to his Pro Bowl form. Good quarterback play equals wins, lousy quarterback play equals losses...regardless of Peters' status. Again, it would absolutely help Edwards to have big #71 on his left, I wanna be clear on that. But Walker would be still be competent at protecting his blind side to the point that, if Trent is the guy, it ought to come shining through. We'll just have to keep our fingers crossed and hope he's up to it. Just one fan's opinion. So as long as Edwards plays as well as Kurt Warner we'll be OK? You do realize that Kurt Warner had arguably the single best season of any QB in the league last year? Better than Peyton Manning. Better than Brees. So, as long as Edwards plays that well, we'll be OK with that line? ... I don't know what to say.
Thurman#1 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Point of the thread was to argue that the front office needs to get Peters deal done so there is a little less pressure in the draft. You also miss the fact that D-Line and TE and perhaps LB are also areas of need on the team. If we have to draft another LT because the Bills botch the Peters situation we are just treading water. The other point in the thread was to show that failing to sign Peters has a domino effect. Walker probably has to move, Chambers has to move and you are lost likely going to have to start a rookie guard. Perhaps Bell is in this mix also but he is far from proven and has no NFL starting experience - so in effect he is a rookie. Finally, I was simply trying to suggest that the Bills need to put the Peters deal to bed before the draft. They can then focus on other issues. Great post. Everybody always says "then you switch this guy over here, and this guy here and this guy here and it's all hunky-dory." That ignores that each line position has different physical and mental requirements, and that the less continuity you have, the worse year you can expect.
BuffaloBill Posted March 30, 2009 Author Posted March 30, 2009 So as long as Edwards plays as well as Kurt Warner we'll be OK? You do realize that Kurt Warner had arguably the single best season of any QB in the league last year? Better than Peyton Manning. Better than Brees. So, as long as Edwards plays that well, we'll be OK with that line? ... I don't know what to say. Amen If Trent Edwards 2009 season = Kurt Warner in 2008 we will all be swilling beers, high fiving, man hugging and singing in the streets. A scenario while blissful to dream about is so far fetched that it is laughable.
spartacus Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 We were talking about if Hangartner was the starting center and how good he might be. Where did you come up with me feeling comfortable about us having no interior lineman with NFL starting experience on the roster? You tell me what center was out there in free agency that is a "proven player" who is "capable of excellent play." Was it Birk, an older player who's game is not handling a 3-4 nose? Was it Jason Brown, a guy who thinks he deserves all the money in the world and wants to play LG? For the 20th time, I agree with you. But, there wasn't a center in free agency that would come in here and be a pro bowler. We all thought as fans that this offseason should accomplish improving the interior of the offensive line. We haven't even gotten to the draft, or the summer cap casualties, and you want to throw away the offseason as a failure. Let me be the first to say that I am not happy with what the Bills have done up to this point. We have no quality starters on the interior, and no bodies to even back them up in case of injury. I would have at least liked to see another veteran guard in here. The point that I am making is lets actually get through the draft first and see who we end up with before we rip the front office for not filling personel holes. I still think the Bills will sign another interior lineman. Jake Grove- the C Parcells signed would be a much better option but what does Parcells know about builidng a football team whoever the Bills sign at this point will not be an upgrade, just filler like for the last 15 years. they need to spend premium picks on the OL
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