thebandit27 Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 You beat me to it. He's a DT that's faster than Ayers, a DE. And he can be gotten in a later round. According to NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers), Gilbert ran the 40 in 4.87, Ayers ran it in 4.90 (Maybin ran it in 4.89, by contrast). Tyson Jackson - who would not work as a DE in our scheme (not because he's too big, but because he's too slow) ran a 5.00 (not bad for a DT). I'd still prefer a faster guy to get after the QB (like a Sidbury), but if this guy is available in the later rounds (3rd, 4th) he would definitely be worth a look. I'd take him as a DE...he may be a better fit as a 5-technique, but I agree that he wouldn't be out of place as a 9-technique. Gilbert has sufficient short-area and lateral quickness, and he can finish. I definitely like him better than most analysts' top DEs, but then again, I'm not a fan of any of the top DEs this year. My only concern with Gilbert is that he's not very fluid and he tends to play too upright. I think he'll come off the board by the late 2nd round.
Leonidas Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 You guys that dismiss the positions he could play and the schemes he could play in are hilarious. All I said is that Tyson Jackson doesn't fit as a DE in our scheme. If you think that's incorrect then get your head checked. Every analyst on the planet is predicting him as a 3-4 DE.
VOR Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 I have followed this guy for awhile now. He is athletic, strong, and fast. However, he is ONLY going to be a 3-4 DE at the next level, and thats that. He isn't thick enough to play 4-3 DT, and he is too big for a 4-3 DE, and he wont be a OT. He is know as the guy that jumped out of the pool: What is "too big for a 4-3 DE?" As long as he's got speed and quickness, which it appears he has, the size is an added bonus. And I doubt he lasts far into the 2nd round. If the Bills are looking at DE, I'd trade down and take this guy with a later-1st rounder. Maybe even consider bulking him up and moving him inside. The rest of the DE's really just don't intrigue me all that much.
Anzaloha Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 wow, 6 foot 5 290 lb player who run's the forty in 4.76 with a 37 inch vertical, who was co defensive player of the year with 22 tackles for loss and 9.5 sacks doesn't fit our scheme. You just love his stats, but remember the conference he was in.
ans4e64 Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 All I said is that Tyson Jackson doesn't fit as a DE in our scheme. If you think that's incorrect then get your head checked. Every analyst on the planet is predicting him as a 3-4 DE. The thread is about Jarron Gilbert. That's obviously who I was talking about.
thebandit27 Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 I think a team like the Giants goes a long way in dispelling the idea that defensive linemen only fit in one scheme or another. Look at the way they use a guy like Justin Tuck: DT, DE, doesn't matter. Then they go out and sign a guy like Chris Canty, who's never played in any scheme other than a 3-4 (in college or the pros), and they'll likely use him the same way as Tuck. I think it just goes to show that a talented player like Gilbert (or Tyson Jackson for that matter) can be productive in the right coach's hands, regardless of the system.
Magox Posted April 14, 2009 Author Posted April 14, 2009 I think a team like the Giants goes a long way in dispelling the idea that defensive linemen only fit in one scheme or another. Look at the way they use a guy like Justin Tuck: DT, DE, doesn't matter. Then they go out and sign a guy like Chris Canty, who's never played in any scheme other than a 3-4 (in college or the pros), and they'll likely use him the same way as Tuck. I think it just goes to show that a talented player like Gilbert (or Tyson Jackson for that matter) can be productive in the right coach's hands, regardless of the system. amen brutha The fact that he did play at a high level and was codefensive conference player of the year, even though it was a lesser division, shows that he has got skills, couple that with his size and athleticism, I'm sure there is a place for him in the NFL, and maybe as a quality starter with the right coaching as bandit had mentioned. This guy can play DT and DE in both 3/4 and 4/3 alignments. I love his versatility. I see him playing opposite end of Schobel, someone who has got the speed to occasionaly beat his man to the outside, and collapse the pocket by mauling tackles. I always liked the idea of one speed DE and the other a run stuffing pocket collapsing end. I actually think someone is going to pick him up in the first round.
manbeast Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 Exactly, The Bills never go after DEs that are over 260. They also shy away from guys who make tackles in the backfield. To get that many tackles for a loss, he must have been abandoning his zone to go after the ball carrier. This is the type of player that would fit better in one of the 'good' schemes. I really do not think the Bills go D-line on Day 1 of the draft. I think the Bills like thier top 4 ends and will go into '09 with those 4 ends. I think the Bills expect the pass rush to come from Schobel, Ellis and blitzes. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the Bills really like Kelsey and Kelsey will be a starter and a captian in '09. Bruce Smith weighed 300
billybob Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 Bruce Smith weighed 300 Bruce smith weighed 300 for a very short period of time- he was down to 285 by his second season and 275 his third, he played at 275 for 2-3 seasons and eventually dropped to 265-260.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 I love his size, athleticism, strength and production. 22 tackles for loss, 9.5 sacks and co conference player of the year. You know at 6'5 288 bench pressing 225 almost 30 times, he is not going to get pushed around. Plus he runs the 40 in 4.76, with a tremendous 37 vertical, which shows lots of explosion, he has the athleticism to be spectacular. Put that together with his production. I'd have to say this is guy could be a gamer. His closest comparison in this draft class is someone not yet mentioned in this thread...Michael Johnson. They are both physical freaks the difference being that Johnson somewhat underachieved at a slightly higher level of competition while Gilbert was fairly productive at a slightly lower level of competition. It will be interesting to see which of these two players comes off the board first. He's a tweener though. Nobody seems to know exactly how to use him or where to deploy him. He could play either DE or DT, but I've actually read that some think he could play offensive tackle like his dad did. But with his athleticism, penetration ability and sound tackling he could play DE. He certainly has the size, but he didn't face elite competition. I think someone will grab him by the 3rd round. And possibly higher by the sounds of things. He seems to be a rising stock. I was reading where he could play as a DE or DT in the 4-3.Measuring his strength, vertical and 40 I definitely think he has the speed to play DE. As you stated earlier the only drawback is the level of competition he has played. But the good news is that he dominated at that level, and was Defensive player of the year in that conference. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes early in the second round. I tried a few weeks ago unsuccessfully to find video of San Jose State versus Boise State from last year...same conference and he undoubtedly locked horns with Ryan Clady who was an outstanding rookie tackle last year. You guys that dismiss the positions he could play and the schemes he could play in are hilarious. Couldn't agree more. Reggie White was 6'5" and 300 pounds and played his entire NFL career as a 4-3 end. It's possible that some of these guys (Orakpo, Brown, Maybin) are too small for 3-4 end but if you have the athleticism, any large body (Jackson, Gilbert) can still play 4-3 end. All I said is that Tyson Jackson doesn't fit as a DE in our scheme. If you think that's incorrect then get your head checked. Every analyst on the planet is predicting him as a 3-4 DE. Which is ironic because Jackson has played almost his entire collegiate career as a 4-3 LDE. Yes he projects very well to 3-4 end but that's where he projects. He is first and foremost a 4-3 end. He would be a huge upgrade from Kelsay. There would be no running to his side and he would physically dominate from his position every snap. Truly great players can play in any scheme and Jackson is considered a can't miss prospect (he's the defensive analog to Brandon Pettigrew). He might not be an elite pass rusher (Pettigrew is not a gamebreaking tight end) but he'd be wreaking havoc and defeating his man on every play. Bruce Smith weighed 300 Very quickly in his career Bruce slimmed down to 265. IMO Gilbert would have no problem playing 4-3 end. His skill set translates to any scheme. I don't know if he'll succeed at the next level but he certainly is an impressive physical specimen.
Astrobot Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 All I said is that Tyson Jackson doesn't fit as a DE in our scheme. If you think that's incorrect then get your head checked. Every analyst on the planet is predicting him as a 3-4 DE. We at DraftTek have him as the 4-3/3-4 combo plate, so not every analyst agrees with you.
SWVABillsFan Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 What is "too big for a 4-3 DE?" As long as he's got speed and quickness, which it appears he has, the size is an added bonus. And I doubt he lasts far into the 2nd round. If the Bills are looking at DE, I'd trade down and take this guy with a later-1st rounder. Maybe even consider bulking him up and moving him inside. The rest of the DE's really just don't intrigue me all that much. Why does everyone want to bulk him up? It appears he has good speed and strength. If anything take 10-15 pounds off him to gain him a lil' more speed. After all when the great Bruce Smith came out of college ha was 6'5 275, as was Howie Long. Remember for Pro Bowls with them 2 where the game plan was meet me at the QB?
Magox Posted April 14, 2009 Author Posted April 14, 2009 Why does everyone want to bulk him up? It appears he has good speed and strength. If anything take 10-15 pounds off him to gain him a lil' more speed. After all when the great Bruce Smith came out of college ha was 6'5 275, as was Howie Long. Remember for Pro Bowls with them 2 where the game plan was meet me at the QB? in our scheme, I agree, it would be ideal to trim him down 10-15lbs at around 275. If he ran a 4.76 40 and 37 inch vertical at close to 290, he probably could run in the 4.6's with close to a 40 inch vertical at 275. He's a physical specimen if you ask me, and definitely fast enough to play the 4-3 End.
VOR Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 Why does everyone want to bulk him up? It appears he has good speed and strength. If anything take 10-15 pounds off him to gain him a lil' more speed. After all when the great Bruce Smith came out of college ha was 6'5 275, as was Howie Long. Remember for Pro Bowls with them 2 where the game plan was meet me at the QB? I meant to bulk him up and move him to DT. As an alternative to playing DE.
PushthePile Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 I meant to bulk him up and move him to DT. As an alternative to playing DE. I agree with my good friend and defense attorney, VOR. I like the idea of moving him inside, especially on passing downs. He could kind of fill the role of what we thought Spencer Johnson was going to be. Spell DEs on probable run plays and bounce inside on probable pass situations. Just breaking your balls, VOR.
VOR Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 I wish I could have seen Bruce play LDE in a 4-3, in his prime. Holy mother!
SWVABillsFan Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 I meant to bulk him up and move him to DT. As an alternative to playing DE. I understand that people want to bulk him up and move him inside. Again I am saying no. We need a left DE. Stroud and Schobel are solid. Put this guy at DE and make teams fear him and Kyle Williams gets even better. There are a few good pass rushing OLB's that fit our scheme wo can be had in the 3rd-5th rounds that will help the defenses cause that much more.
Magox Posted April 14, 2009 Author Posted April 14, 2009 I understand that people want to bulk him up and move him inside. Again I am saying no. We need a left DE. Stroud and Schobel are solid. Put this guy at DE and make teams fear him and Kyle Williams gets even better. There are a few good pass rushing OLB's that fit our scheme wo can be had in the 3rd-5th rounds that will help the defenses cause that much more. clint sintim to name one. That dude can get to the QB, I'm not so sure he makes it to the 3rd round though, but if he was available, he would be awfully hard to pass up.
cody Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 Bruce Smith weighed 300 Bruce Smith played in a different system. My original post was a sarcastic critisism of Fewell's Tampa 2, the sytem where they take an undersized DE who cannot get to the QB and make him a captian.
Leonidas Posted April 15, 2009 Posted April 15, 2009 The thread is about Jarron Gilbert. That's obviously who I was talking about. Just making sure. I think a team like the Giants goes a long way in dispelling the idea that defensive linemen only fit in one scheme or another. Look at the way they use a guy like Justin Tuck: DT, DE, doesn't matter. Then they go out and sign a guy like Chris Canty, who's never played in any scheme other than a 3-4 (in college or the pros), and they'll likely use him the same way as Tuck. I think it just goes to show that a talented player like Gilbert (or Tyson Jackson for that matter) can be productive in the right coach's hands, regardless of the system. Totally agree. I just wish Buffalo had that kind of creativity on defense. Aside from the Seattle game, that didn't appear to be the case last season. I actually think someone is going to pick him up in the first round. Doubtful. But he could be snagged in the second when there's a run on DE's like Sidbury, Barwin, etc. Which is ironic because Jackson has played almost his entire collegiate career as a 4-3 LDE. Yes he projects very well to 3-4 end but that's where he projects. He is first and foremost a 4-3 end. He would be a huge upgrade from Kelsay. There would be no running to his side and he would physically dominate from his position every snap. Truly great players can play in any scheme and Jackson is considered a can't miss prospect (he's the defensive analog to Brandon Pettigrew). He might not be an elite pass rusher (Pettigrew is not a gamebreaking tight end) but he'd be wreaking havoc and defeating his man on every play. Not really. Players have to switch all the time. Brown and Maybin are projected at 3-4 OLB's even though they played DE in college. You can go even more extreme and look at guys like Matt Jones, Kordell Stewart, Antwaan Randel-El, etc. There's no irony there. I'm not sure who you are saying would be a huge upgrade over Kelsay, Jackson or Gilbert. I certainly don't think Jackson would as Kelsay is pretty good against the run and neither can seem to get to the QB. Gilbert might be, but his 40 isn't really any faster than Kelsay's, so I wonder if he'd get to the QB in the NFL any faster than Kelsay would. But I'd definitely be up for giving him a shot. I'm starting to lean more toward these 2nd/3rd round DE's (Sidbury, Barwin, Gilbert) rather than these 1st round hybrids who seem more likely to bust (Brown, Maybin). We at DraftTek have him as the 4-3/3-4 combo plate, so not every analyst agrees with you. Good for you. He'll be drafted by a 3-4 team to play DE. $100? $200?
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