ropeerasers Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Everyone loves to opine on Trent Edwards' arm strength, so I'm just wondering if this perceived lack of throwing ability is something that can change with some measure of specialized training. It seems like this specific problem plagues some young QBs then goes away as they mature (Tom Brady), but with some it only gets progressively worse with the wear and tear of multiple NFL seasons (Chad Pennington). With TO on the team now and Marshawn expecting a suspension, it's not ridiculous to think there will be a bigger emphasis on the passing game, at least in the early stages of the season. So, what can Trent do to make his arm strength NOT a liability (if it is one). Anyone have any insights?
BillsObserver Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 The answer is in the movie Rookie of the Year (1993).
Leonidas Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Well Brady never had arm strength issues, he just wasn't accurate downfield. When I watched him his first few years he would bomb it out and it would be overthrown or successfully defensed; he just couldn't put the right amount of power behind his throws. That's since changed, obviously. With Pennington, he never had a strong arm but that was made worse with shoulder surgery. Trent doesn't have the Cutler/J. George arm, but from what I've seen arm strength isn't the problem; skiddishness in the pocket is.
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Well Brady never had arm strength issues, he just wasn't accurate downfield. When I watched him his first few years he would bomb it out and it would be overthrown or successfully defensed; he just couldn't put the right amount of power behind his throws. That's since changed, obviously. Not true...his accuracy was fine, he didn't have enough strength to get the ball downfield before the defender could close on the reciever. To his credit, he worked very hard on it.
Alphadawg7 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Everyone loves to opine on Trent Edwards' arm strength, so I'm just wondering if this perceived lack of throwing ability is something that can change with some measure of specialized training. It seems like this specific problem plagues some young QBs then goes away as they mature (Tom Brady), but with some it only gets progressively worse with the wear and tear of multiple NFL seasons (Chad Pennington). With TO on the team now and Marshawn expecting a suspension, it's not ridiculous to think there will be a bigger emphasis on the passing game, at least in the early stages of the season. So, what can Trent do to make his arm strength NOT a liability (if it is one). Anyone have any insights? Arm strength varies in relevance with each QB. From a defensive game plan point of view, here is what the impact is: 1. If a QB doesnt represent a deep down field threat, it allows the D to play more aggressively up front and gamble more if they dont have too much concern from being beat over the top. This is the NFL, so any QB in the league will be able to get the ball 40+ yards down field in the air, however, some will have to put more air under the ball and the delivery time will be worse allowing secondary's to adjust, and yes, fractions of a second matter and can be all the difference on making a play on the ball or getting in postion to make the pick. 2. None of that means the QB cant still pick them apart, it just means game planning has one less thing to worry about and it allows the D to be more aggressive up front and gamble more on plays for the ball. How does marginal (or worse) arm strength affect the QB and his ability to have success in the NFL? This greatly varies with each QB. Having below average arm strength is a liability, however, it doesnt mean a QB can't over come it. A QB with a below average arm (in terms of strength) can excel in the NFL, however, they MUST excel in other areas: 1. He must be able to make QUICK reads and get the ball out EARLY. He has to compensate for velocity with timing. That means seeing the route and throwing to where the reciever will be, sometimes even before he makes his cut. 2. He needs to be able to read the defense to be able to do #1. This is a biggie... 3. He needs above average field vision to be able to PROGRESS through his reads quickly. If he locks onto a target too long, he doesnt have the arm strength to force into tight coverage elsewhere once the other WR's are out of their breaks and the DB/LB has adjusted. He needs to recognize his hot read isnt going to be there and quickly progress through his reads. This is why Trent has struggled to find the open guy at times and checks down, because he isnt progressing through his reads fast enough and looks to the safe check down too often. Something he needs to improve in 2010 and it comes with experience. Right now, its easy to defend against Trent as all you have to do is jam the hot read which is why he struggled last year once teams figured this out. 4. He needs to have above average pocket awareness at least. He has to be able to feel the pocket and buy himself some time to get a good technical throw off. Throwing under duress or off their back foot is HIGH risk for a turnover. These plays are already high risk throws, but when you have below average arm strength, it magnifies it because in most cases it creates even more air under the ball or the ball gets severly under thrown, all easy INT throws... 5. He needs confidence in his throws...the slightest hesitation can cause his only window to close... So, an average or below average arm QB can absolutely excel in this league, however, they must compensate in these key areas in order to do so. If they don't, they will struggle mightily and be inconsistent. Heck, Montanna and Brady have about average arms, and they are two of the best all time.
thewildrabbit Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Well Brady never had arm strength issues, he just wasn't accurate downfield. When I watched him his first few years he would bomb it out and it would be overthrown or successfully defensed; he just couldn't put the right amount of power behind his throws. That's since changed, obviously. With Pennington, he never had a strong arm but that was made worse with shoulder surgery. Trent doesn't have the Cutler/J. George arm, but from what I've seen arm strength isn't the problem; skiddishness in the pocket is. The Bills came out and stated recently that the O line didn't give Edwards the time he needed to get the ball down the field most games. It really was dependent on what team he was playing against. Go back and watch the game against the Charger's, where they never got near him. Edwards was able to find a rhythm and spread the ball around very well. On the other hand, teams like the Jets that were able to collapse the pocket quickly and gave Edwards fits, again, go back and watch that NYJ at Bills game where Kris Jenkins is after Edwards in under 3 seconds. The Bills tried to triple him and still didn't slow him down. Anyone would would be skiddish in those kind of situations. Payton Manning is the least sacked QB the last 5 years, when teams beat the Colts its usually because they are able to get into Manning's face and disrupt his throwing and timing.
Stussy109 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Trent needs to continue working out his body and adding muscle. He needs to strengthen his core body, shoulders, and arms.
DrFishfinder Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Everyone loves to opine on Trent Edwards' arm strength, so I'm just wondering if this perceived lack of throwing ability is something that can change with some measure of specialized training. It seems like this specific problem plagues some young QBs then goes away as they mature (Tom Brady), but with some it only gets progressively worse with the wear and tear of multiple NFL seasons (Chad Pennington). With TO on the team now and Marshawn expecting a suspension, it's not ridiculous to think there will be a bigger emphasis on the passing game, at least in the early stages of the season. So, what can Trent do to make his arm strength NOT a liability (if it is one). Anyone have any insights? I don't think that at this stage of his development, Edwards is going to get too much more power behid his throws. Some maybe, but not a lot. He can get the ball fairly deep, but it's not going to be a frozen rope, it's going to have some degree of arc. The issue is going to be timing more than arm strength. And that issue was brought up several times during games by the broadcasters. Edwards was waiting for receivers to get open, rather than throwing to where they should be open. And that happened on 6-8 yard pass plays too, not just deep ones. If Schonert can get Edwards and the receivers to get in sync with the routes and timing, the passing game will be better than it was during the 1st half of the 2008 season. If not, it will look like the 2nd half of the 2008 season. Not strength, timing.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Not true...his accuracy was fine, he didn't have enough strength to get the ball downfield before the defender could close on the reciever. To his credit, he worked very hard on it. I read all over the place Brady was outstading at the nfl combine in ball speed.... whats the basis for the arm strength assertion?
BuffaloRebound Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Drew Brees is the only QB I can remember who significantly increased his arm strength. It took him from an average/below average starter to elite starter. Edwards should call him up.
dickie do-right Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Everyone loves to opine on Trent Edwards' arm strength, so I'm just wondering if this perceived lack of throwing ability is something that can change with some measure of specialized training. It seems like this specific problem plagues some young QBs then goes away as they mature (Tom Brady), but with some it only gets progressively worse with the wear and tear of multiple NFL seasons (Chad Pennington). With TO on the team now and Marshawn expecting a suspension, it's not ridiculous to think there will be a bigger emphasis on the passing game, at least in the early stages of the season. So, what can Trent do to make his arm strength NOT a liability (if it is one). Anyone have any insights? get a new pair of gloves
BuffaloBillsMagic1 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Place Edwards on Boli for a few months in the offseason and I bet he gets more zip on his throws.
Alphadawg7 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Arm strength varies in relevance with each QB. From a defensive game plan point of view, here is what the impact is: 1. If a QB doesnt represent a deep down field threat, it allows the D to play more aggressively up front and gamble more if they dont have too much concern from being beat over the top. This is the NFL, so any QB in the league will be able to get the ball 40+ yards down field in the air, however, some will have to put more air under the ball and the delivery time will be worse allowing secondary's to adjust, and yes, fractions of a second matter and can be all the difference on making a play on the ball or getting in postion to make the pick. 2. None of that means the QB cant still pick them apart, it just means game planning has one less thing to worry about and it allows the D to be more aggressive up front and gamble more on plays for the ball. How does marginal (or worse) arm strength affect the QB and his ability to have success in the NFL? This greatly varies with each QB. Having below average arm strength is a liability, however, it doesnt mean a QB can't over come it. A QB with a below average arm (in terms of strength) can excel in the NFL, however, they MUST excel in other areas: 1. He must be able to make QUICK reads and get the ball out EARLY. He has to compensate for velocity with timing. That means seeing the route and throwing to where the reciever will be, sometimes even before he makes his cut. 2. He needs to be able to read the defense to be able to do #1. This is a biggie... 3. He needs above average field vision to be able to PROGRESS through his reads quickly. If he locks onto a target too long, he doesnt have the arm strength to force into tight coverage elsewhere once the other WR's are out of their breaks and the DB/LB has adjusted. He needs to recognize his hot read isnt going to be there and quickly progress through his reads. This is why Trent has struggled to find the open guy at times and checks down, because he isnt progressing through his reads fast enough and looks to the safe check down too often. Something he needs to improve in 2010 and it comes with experience. Right now, its easy to defend against Trent as all you have to do is jam the hot read which is why he struggled last year once teams figured this out. 4. He needs to have above average pocket awareness at least. He has to be able to feel the pocket and buy himself some time to get a good technical throw off. Throwing under duress or off their back foot is HIGH risk for a turnover. These plays are already high risk throws, but when you have below average arm strength, it magnifies it because in most cases it creates even more air under the ball or the ball gets severly under thrown, all easy INT throws... 5. He needs confidence in his throws...the slightest hesitation can cause his only window to close... So, an average or below average arm QB can absolutely excel in this league, however, they must compensate in these key areas in order to do so. If they don't, they will struggle mightily and be inconsistent. Heck, Montanna and Brady have about average arms, and they are two of the best all time. One thing I forgot to add too, is that most of the things I listed in my analysis I wrote above can be improved upon with good coaching and experience, so poor arm strength is probably better stated as something that can be over come as opposed to corrected.
Leonidas Posted March 23, 2009 Posted March 23, 2009 Not true...his accuracy was fine, he didn't have enough strength to get the ball downfield before the defender could close on the reciever. To his credit, he worked very hard on it. You have no idea what you're talking about. Brady has always had a strong arm. Did you see Super Bowl XLI? He threw it like 75 yards in the air at the end. It's not like he came into the league maxing out at 45 and added 30 yards of distance in a couple of years. The Bills came out and stated recently that the O line didn't give Edwards the time he needed to get the ball down the field most games. It really was dependent on what team he was playing against. Go back and watch the game against the Charger's, where they never got near him. Edwards was able to find a rhythm and spread the ball around very well. On the other hand, teams like the Jets that were able to collapse the pocket quickly and gave Edwards fits, again, go back and watch that NYJ at Bills game where Kris Jenkins is after Edwards in under 3 seconds. The Bills tried to triple him and still didn't slow him down. Anyone would would be skiddish in those kind of situations. Payton Manning is the least sacked QB the last 5 years, when teams beat the Colts its usually because they are able to get into Manning's face and disrupt his throwing and timing. How about the Cleveland game where Lee Evans was wide open downfield and Edwards was trying to thread the needle underneath? Family members have season tickets, they say that wasn't an anomaly. He looked good against the Chargers, but most of the games after the concussion he didn't look good at all. You need to be able to get hit and get right back up again.
billybob Posted March 23, 2009 Posted March 23, 2009 all around body strength and good mechanics helps- they say poor arm strength shows up mainly in the twenty yard out
The Dean Posted March 23, 2009 Posted March 23, 2009 I think "arm strength" is getting confused with ""ability to throw the long ball" in this thread. While there may be a correlation between the two, they are very different things. You don't need to have the strongest arm to throw a good long ball (of course you have to have adequate arm strength). You can have a good long touch, but not have the arm strength to whiz a ball on a 20-yard out, between the corner and the safety. Edwards doesn't have the world's strongest arm, but it is adequate, IMO. He does however, need to work on his long ball, as it is below par, IMO. And, yes, as it has been mentioned, it can be a correctable problem.
thebug Posted March 23, 2009 Posted March 23, 2009 I think "arm strength" is getting confused with ""ability to throw the long ball" in this thread. While there may be a correlation between the two, they are very different things. You don't need to have the strongest arm to throw a good long ball (of course you have to have adequate arm strength). You can have a good long touch, but not have the arm strength to whiz a ball on a 20-yard out, between the corner and the safety. Edwards doesn't have the world's strongest arm, but it is adequate, IMO. He does however, need to work on his long ball, as it is below par, IMO. And, yes, as it has been mentioned, it can be a correctable problem. Yah good points. I'm not comparing Trent Edwards with Tom Brady by any means, but when Brady came into the league he could not throw the long ball like he does now. I am a big Michigan fan and he did not have that arm in college. I think good coaching and practise play a big part. JMO
damj Posted March 23, 2009 Posted March 23, 2009 The answer is in the movie Rookie of the Year (1993). Funky butt loving
Thurman#1 Posted March 23, 2009 Posted March 23, 2009 The Bills came out and stated recently that the O line didn't give Edwards the time he needed to get the ball down the field most games. It really was dependent on what team he was playing against. Go back and watch the game against the Charger's, where they never got near him. Edwards was able to find a rhythm and spread the ball around very well. On the other hand, teams like the Jets that were able to collapse the pocket quickly and gave Edwards fits, again, go back and watch that NYJ at Bills game where Kris Jenkins is after Edwards in under 3 seconds. The Bills tried to triple him and still didn't slow him down. Anyone would would be skiddish in those kind of situations. Payton Manning is the least sacked QB the last 5 years, when teams beat the Colts its usually because they are able to get into Manning's face and disrupt his throwing and timing. Manning is the least sacked because he makes extremely quick decisions and gets the ball out fast. There is nobody in the history of the league who does real well when he has no time. Look at Brady in the Giants Super Bowl. Anyone could have had a good game against no pressure like in the Chargers game. The measure of a QB is whether he can get it out quickly when the heavy rush is on. Yeah, the O-line needs improvement. But you just can't blame all of that on them, Trent comes in for his share of the blame. He was extremely inconsistent last year. Manning's o-line was the worst it's been in his career last year and he still had a very good year.
Thurman#1 Posted March 23, 2009 Posted March 23, 2009 As to the original question, about whether arm strength can be improved, just ask yourself this question. How many pitchers would love to throw like Nolan Ryan? How many spend their careers trying like hell to improve themselves? And how many end up throwing like Nolan Ryan? No, you can't make huge improvements in arm strength. With one obvious exception, of course. If you have some huge mechanical fault, like you're throwing off the back foot every time, then that can be corrected and can improve velocity quite a bit. But Trent doesn't have any big mechanical problem. You can strenthen muscles and strengthen lifts and so on. But velocity is a result of "snap," the speed the muscles can go from zero to full speed, ratios of arm bone lengths and that kind of stuff, rather than pure strength. In Britain, they say guys who have velocity on their soccer shots have "fast knees." The question in football is whether they have fast wrists. You can improve velocity, but by small amounts only. JaMarcus Russells are mostly born, not made. But as noted above, guys with (slightly) less than average velocity, like Pennington, can still have success if they have field smarts, good vision and get rid of the ball quickly to the correct guy.
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