A rational person needs to give props to Peter's agent

[Big Hurt]

Except for the fact that he gave up a league high 11.5 sacks last year and has two years left on his deal. Actually, he has very little leverage. If the Bills are smart they'll sign an LT and get that last bit of leverage and either deal Peters or play hardball.

 

My point really is to predict what the Bills will do, not what they should do. I think the Bills will leave the offer on the table until the start of the training camp. If by the draft time comes, Peters still has not sign the new deal, the first round pick will be a left tackle, even if the available LT is not a top notch one. They will simply convince the fans that they got a steal. Brandon played hard ball last year with Peters and Parker, I believe he would do it again without blinking. Brandon wants to win (shown by signing TO) but he will not allow himself to be shown off by Parker. He seems to have this cowboy mentality. In regard to no crediable replacement for Peters, that is a matter of opinion. The Bills may (and probably will) think that Kris Chamber and a rookie LT will be good enough to replace Peters; assuming Chambers will start the season and the rookie will take over after several games.

 

Peters will not have the leverage some may think because the Bills does not think he deserve the $11 mil that he is asking for. The two sides will have to negoiate for a realistic number. If Peters decides to hold out again, I have a feeling that Brandon may go out of his way to teach him a lesson. It could also be a PR move to show the fans that he means business.

 

In regard to signing a LT from FA, who can they get that can start right the way? I suspect that there are not that many of them out there.

[The Big Cat]

If Peters goal is to make more money, then he hasn't "won" yet.

 

If The Bills goal is to win as many games possible with the resources they have, then they haven't "won" yet.

 

Not until the Bills play their last relevant game of 2009 will we know who the "winners" and "losers" are in this situation which started in the Spring of 08.

[Mickey]

Peter's agent counts on front office people to wet themselves like many on this forum do, especially when he is in a weak position. In fact his only leverage is to damage the team which already casts a pall on the negotiation. Add to that his client's behavior and subsequent poor performance, despite his pro bowl vote last season, and you have an extremely bitter pill to swallow with no guarentee of getting Peters best even if you do cave to his demands.

 

The Peters fanboys point to his rep and ignore his actual performance. They excuse his selfish behavior as justified when a real team player could have asked for a renegotiation while showing up to OTA's. To me, Peters actions make him unworthy of a cap-buster deal. I would rather trade him and move on.

 

PTR

I don't know why you feel its necessary to be condescending and insulting to those who simply think Peters is worth keeping on the roster, hardly an extreme view given his two trips to the pro bowl and the teams efforts to try and keep him around.

 

I thought to respond in kind but instead I am hoping maybe you will reconsider that attitude and join in a more constructive discussion.

[Mickey]

If Peters goal is to make more money, then he hasn't "won" yet.

 

If The Bills goal is to win as many games possible with the resources they have, then they haven't "won" yet.

 

Not until the Bills play their last relevant game of 2009 will we know who the "winners" and "losers" are in this situation which started in the Spring of 08.

We will have to wait for that fat lady to take the stage.

 

Sure hope is resolved long before then so we can all discuss something else besides the oh-so-exciting topic of the relative sizes of the teams' and Peters' bank account. I have a suspicion that if we lose Peters, we will live to regret it. Brandon will end up being an answer to a trivia question, the GM who let Peters go. Who was the guy who let Darryl Lamonica go?

[Mr. WEO]

I don't know why you feel its necessary to be condescending and insulting to those who simply think Peters is worth keeping on the roster, hardly an extreme view given his two trips to the pro bowl and the teams efforts to try and keep him around.

 

I thought to respond in kind but instead I am hoping maybe you will reconsider that attitude and join in a more constructive discussion.

 

His two trips to the Pro Bowl? Maybe we should go after Favre--he just went to the Pro Bowl, too!

 

Anyway, I've played in as many Pro Bowls as Peters.

 

This guy has trouble finishing the season. Maybe the team's "efforts to keep him around" (do you see something we do not?) are somewhat influenced by this.

[The Big Cat]

We will have to wait for that fat lady to take the stage.

 

Sure hope is resolved long before then so we can all discuss something else besides the oh-so-exciting topic of the relative sizes of the teams' and Peters' bank account. I have a suspicion that if we lose Peters, we will live to regret it. Brandon will end up being an answer to a trivia question, the GM who let Peters go. Who was the guy who let Darryl Lamonica go?

 

I still think Peters' tactic should be to show up and put in the work. You know, as if he were still under contract to do so for the next two years.

 

To the OP's point, yeah, sure he's made some pretty good moves to leverage his weight and his point, but at the end of the day, The Bills have the power (allbeit a power they're unlikely to wield) to let the guy rot if he doesn't demonstrate that BEING A FOOTBALL PLAYER is what he's employed to do.

[Dawgg]

His two trips to the Pro Bowl? Maybe we should go after Favre--he just went to the Pro Bowl, too!

 

Anyway, I've played in as many Pro Bowls as Peters.

 

This guy has trouble finishing the season. Maybe the team's "efforts to keep him around" (do you see something we do not?) are somewhat influenced by this.

 

Pro Bowls, whether they're justified or not, give him significant negotiating leverage.

If the Bills were smart, they would have covered their bases by acquiring other quality tackles either via the draft or via free agency.

 

Because the Bills are not smart, they are now left with a few options, none of which are all that great for the team.

[TheChimp]

If the Bills sign this big oaf and he screws the pooch again like last season (11.5 sacks in 13 games is Pro Bowl material now??? oooookie dokie, smokie), then they will really never get the egg off their faces. The fat lard wants RECORD MONEY. His argument is weak, at best.

[Magox]

As long as the Bills don't trade him, he will sign.

 

He has little choice.

 

At $4 Million a year with 2 years left, he is obligated to fulfill his contract or sit out the season. If he sits out, he get's Nothing. If the Bill's don't offer him a new contract he get's $4 Million.

 

So he can either, sit out, accept the contract that the Bills offer him or fulfill his existing contract.

 

That's it. There are no other options.

 

The Bills have the leverage, and they shouldn't trade it away.

 

Most likely the Bills will offer him another contract. As of right now, we are hearing that it is at $8.5 Million a year. Let's say the Bills bump it up to $9 Million. Peters and his agent most likely won't like the deal.

 

But what are their options?

 

They will have to take the deal. By not taking the deal, they will be giving up anywhere between $5 Million and $9 Million a season.

 

We are holding all the cards.

 

As long as we are patient, and don't trade him away and stick to our guns, he will sign.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Great post -- and your 100% correct.

 

Of course, you can't expect the "herd mentality" fans on this board to grasp this. They will side with the organization regardless of the situation.

 

d-double-oh, dogg,

 

there's no way to know if he's 100% correct even if he's correct in that peter's signs for 11 mill+. what leverage might he have had if he played a full season last year? not the full season where he started coming around game 5 or game 6, but the full season where you show up, play your ass off for 16 weeks straight?

 

i'm still amazed that of the roughly 1500 guys in the league, peter's was only one of two that was so cheated that he had to sit out. i'm amazed too that a guy playing on a 7-9 team for the third year in a row, a guy who was a project part of the way and was signed to a nice contract felt so badly screwed by the organization.

 

i got to thinking that as bad as peter's is getting screwed at $4+ mill, Tom Brady must be the most under-appreciated guy in the history of sports. Here's a guy that's actually won something, been a leader, and that poor bastard is making minimum wage for an elite qb. If Cassel was franchised for $14mill, Brady should by all rights be holding out for $24 or $25 million. But, he just plugs along at his $5 mill and restructures his contract for the team.

 

business is business.

[Dawgg]

d-double-oh, dogg,

 

there's no way to know if he's 100% correct even if he's correct in that peter's signs for 11 mill+. what leverage might he have had if he played a full season last year? not the full season where he started coming around game 5 or game 6, but the full season where you show up, play your ass off for 16 weeks straight?

Here's the thing timmo... I agree with most of what you say. I just think that the fact that the Bills have done nothing to address the depth at tackle should not be underestimated. Let's suppose the Bills signed a starting caliber free agent or drafted a promising young tackle... then suddenly Peters is hanging out to dry. Now, Peters' camp knows that the Bills really have no other credible option at LT so they are trying to stick it to them.

 

You're right -- business is business. Well-run businesses formulate contingency plans. The Bills have not done so with Peters, which is why he has added leverage in this situation.

[Dibs]

.....He was the worst starting LT in football last year!....

The worst!

He's being over-paid as it is then.

The Worst!?!

We'd be better off just cutting him I guess.

[DazedandConfused]

Here's the thing timmo... I agree with most of what you say. I just think that the fact that the Bills have done nothing to address the depth at tackle should not be underestimated. Let's suppose the Bills signed a starting caliber free agent or drafted a promising young tackle... then suddenly Peters is hanging out to dry. Now, Peters' camp knows that the Bills really have no other credible option at LT so they are trying to stick it to them.

 

You're right -- business is business. Well-run businesses formulate contingency plans. The Bills have not done so with Peters, which is why he has added leverage in this situation.

The problem is that the Bills have been a successful business (which I define as maximizing profits for the stakeholders - aka Ralph) through a number of factors:

 

1. Small acquisition cost (Ralph was smart enough to buy in early and through successful decision-making through the days as the AFL and through his other business interests doing well enough he was able to buy and hold. The several 10s of thousands he spent to acquire the Bills and build the franchise slowly into a going concern was real money back in the day but clearly was doable and by buying and holding it is a substantial asset today and the closest thing going to a printing press at the mint for making money with little risk and almost by auto-pilot since the modern CBA forged a partnership between the owners and the workers.

 

2. Collaborative business practices beats out good ol American individualism for the economic approach of the NFL.

 

The best thing that happened to this as a money0making enterprise was that the owners beat the NFLPA so badly with the mid-80s lockout, that the NFLPA could no longer fight the owners and a bunch of smart NYC lawyers talked the players into threatening to decertify the union unless the owners agreed to a CBA.

 

The owners when confronted with participating in a true free market (where they would have to negotiate personal services contracts with every athlete they hired, virtually any collaboration between individual owners would have been judged price fixing and trade could not be restrained as it was by agreement with the NFLPA to hold a draft of players and ban adults from signing contracts until their college class had graduated, and other things) and ran kicking and screaming to reach an agreement with the players which actually delivered far more money to the players than they would have gotten under the "radical" 52% of the gross proposal pushed by the NFLPA under Ed Garvey.

 

I think an irony in this was that the NFL had pulled off a neat trick compared to other major leagues like MLB and hockey where other parties (including guvmint with the many state schools in the NCAA) bore virtually all the costs of player development and assessment. The NFL simply cherry picked the results in a massive restraint of free trade known as the draft.

 

The irony is that rather than buying young athletes when they were teenagers like baseball and hockey, they did not get them until they were educated adults. Many of these athletes were still pliable idiots as adults and the NFL quickly brought them into line or simply used them and disposed of them if they were real morons. However, they also seeded these athletes with a talented tenth or so of players like Gene Upshaw and Troy Vincent who were bright enough to understand the utility of threatening to decertify. Once the heavily testostroned men who made up the players were so badly shell-shocked and beaten when they tried to go mano a mano with the owners, they were able to swoop in and sell the lawyers ideas and force the CBA on the owners.

 

Ralph is part of the old guard that seems to often treat the NFL as their personal play thing where they proved their manhood by fleecing a bunch of dumb kid athletes. However, Ralph is most of all a businessman and he too could see that the labor peace allowed them to provide a product to the networks which they could sell ads to beer and car companies. Ultimately (though over Ralph and the Bengals being the sole objectors) the owners agreed to the current CBA which got rid of the transitional approach of a designated gross to provide the NFLPA with 60.5% of the total gross.

 

A real man would have held out for more than a minority share, but given that 1/32nd of 39.5% of the total gross was demonstrably tons more money than any individual owner would get if they did business the good ol American way, like our country which is turning toward socialism by nationalizing major industries when the good old Golden Rule ran business into the ground (he who has the most gold rules) the team owners were forced to collaborate and are making money hand over fist for doing so.

 

What this means in the Peters case is that though it is sound business practice to simply force Peters to live up to the contract this adult agreed to. In the big picture this is a lot more than a mere business and the Bills quite likely will generate higher cash returns by maintaining good feelings and peace with their players and by taking risks to go for it for the fans by getting as close to the salary cap as they can to acquire talent.

 

The Bills have been a great business over the past decade, but the problem is they have zero playoff berths to show for it.

 

Maybe us rubes will keep on shelling out the bucks for a loser until Ralph dies and the team is sold and moves. Maybe the decade of failure has nothing to do with the Bills never going into hock to get the best players or rack up non salary cap controlled costs like paying for a Parcells instead of a Jauron.

 

However, if this business wants to merely be a good business then simply screw Peters to the extent the rules allow.

 

However, if they want to be a good football team in addition to being a good business then they will quite likely have to make payments to players which get closer to the limits of the salary cap and acquire and maintain solid relationships with 2 time Pro Bowl players even if the player is an idiot,

 

The Bills appear to be tending toward an emphasis on being a winning football team as seen in the acquisition of bad boy and quite frankly self-centered idiot like TO.

 

My guess is that Ralph wants an SB before he dies. They likely will show Peters the money. He may be a self-centered fool, but he is a fool who did well enough to make the Pro Bowl as a youngster twice, The Bills have few options for getting an accomplished player to replace or be trained up as a replacement for Peters, Going with a first round draft choice (or even two) for Peters would likely get a player whom the Bills would be lucky is he started at all his rookie year and simply would provide value for the Bills after Ralph may be dead.

 

Warts and all my guess is that they sign Peters before camp starts (but likely after the draft as nailing him down before had merely gives info to the enemy).

[The Senator]

The problem is...

.

.

.

...the enemy).

fixed

[Mickey]

I still think Peters' tactic should be to show up and put in the work. You know, as if he were still under contract to do so for the next two years.

 

To the OP's point, yeah, sure he's made some pretty good moves to leverage his weight and his point, but at the end of the day, The Bills have the power (allbeit a power they're unlikely to wield) to let the guy rot if he doesn't demonstrate that BEING A FOOTBALL PLAYER is what he's employed to do.

h

I think he has already demonstrated that, hence is rise from UDFA to a top LT in this game. I think what you really mean is that he has to continuously show it. But that means he would have to concede the only card he has to play. Other than the moral high ground, what would be his option if he does as you suggest and the Bills, figuring there is no drama to worry about, don't give him the contract he deserves? If you only have one card to play, even if its not a good one, you might as well play it.

 

Some think he owes the Bills to play at a discount because he was an undrafted TE but what he achieved in this league, he achieved, it wasn't a free gift from the Bills and if you look at all the reports from that draft, Peters was no secret and was on the short list of a lot of teams to get signed as a long term project. He chose Buffalo from among a number of other teams. The notion that he was a nobody hanging on to the game by a thread until he was rescued by the generous Bills is just ludicrous.

[Mickey]

His two trips to the Pro Bowl? Maybe we should go after Favre--he just went to the Pro Bowl, too!

 

Anyway, I've played in as many Pro Bowls as Peters.

 

This guy has trouble finishing the season. Maybe the team's "efforts to keep him around" (do you see something we do not?) are somewhat influenced by this.

Way to focus on the meaningless distinction between being named to the pro bowl and actually playing in one. Not even Brandon would be dumb enough to try to use that in negotiations.

 

Perhaps you haven't followed Peter's career, such as the fact the team already tore up one contract and gave him a hefty raise and are ready to do it again this year, the only problem being settling on a price. The team has shown absolutely no sign of not having full confidence in his abilities. They let Dockery go, not Peters and they haven't developed quality depth at OT either.

 

Really, there are just too many knee jerk authoritarians here whose bitterness over someone elses employment contract blinds them to what a fan should care about most, winning football games. Let Mr. Wilson worry about his money. I want Peters on the field at his best because I have seen his best and it is very, very good. I don't really care how that happens.

[Mickey]

The problem is that the Bills have been a successful business (which I define as maximizing profits for the stakeholders - aka Ralph) through a number of factors:

 

1. Small acquisition cost (Ralph was smart enough to buy in early and through successful decision-making through the days as the AFL and through his other business interests doing well enough he was able to buy and hold. The several 10s of thousands he spent to acquire the Bills and build the franchise slowly into a going concern was real money back in the day but clearly was doable and by buying and holding it is a substantial asset today and the closest thing going to a printing press at the mint for making money with little risk and almost by auto-pilot since the modern CBA forged a partnership between the owners and the workers.

 

2. Collaborative business practices beats out good ol American individualism for the economic approach of the NFL.

 

The best thing that happened to this as a money0making enterprise was that the owners beat the NFLPA so badly with the mid-80s lockout, that the NFLPA could no longer fight the owners and a bunch of smart NYC lawyers talked the players into threatening to decertify the union unless the owners agreed to a CBA.

 

The owners when confronted with participating in a true free market (where they would have to negotiate personal services contracts with every athlete they hired, virtually any collaboration between individual owners would have been judged price fixing and trade could not be restrained as it was by agreement with the NFLPA to hold a draft of players and ban adults from signing contracts until their college class had graduated, and other things) and ran kicking and screaming to reach an agreement with the players which actually delivered far more money to the players than they would have gotten under the "radical" 52% of the gross proposal pushed by the NFLPA under Ed Garvey.

 

I think an irony in this was that the NFL had pulled off a neat trick compared to other major leagues like MLB and hockey where other parties (including guvmint with the many state schools in the NCAA) bore virtually all the costs of player development and assessment. The NFL simply cherry picked the results in a massive restraint of free trade known as the draft.

 

The irony is that rather than buying young athletes when they were teenagers like baseball and hockey, they did not get them until they were educated adults. Many of these athletes were still pliable idiots as adults and the NFL quickly brought them into line or simply used them and disposed of them if they were real morons. However, they also seeded these athletes with a talented tenth or so of players like Gene Upshaw and Troy Vincent who were bright enough to understand the utility of threatening to decertify. Once the heavily testostroned men who made up the players were so badly shell-shocked and beaten when they tried to go mano a mano with the owners, they were able to swoop in and sell the lawyers ideas and force the CBA on the owners.

 

Ralph is part of the old guard that seems to often treat the NFL as their personal play thing where they proved their manhood by fleecing a bunch of dumb kid athletes. However, Ralph is most of all a businessman and he too could see that the labor peace allowed them to provide a product to the networks which they could sell ads to beer and car companies. Ultimately (though over Ralph and the Bengals being the sole objectors) the owners agreed to the current CBA which got rid of the transitional approach of a designated gross to provide the NFLPA with 60.5% of the total gross.

 

A real man would have held out for more than a minority share, but given that 1/32nd of 39.5% of the total gross was demonstrably tons more money than any individual owner would get if they did business the good ol American way, like our country which is turning toward socialism by nationalizing major industries when the good old Golden Rule ran business into the ground (he who has the most gold rules) the team owners were forced to collaborate and are making money hand over fist for doing so.

 

What this means in the Peters case is that though it is sound business practice to simply force Peters to live up to the contract this adult agreed to. In the big picture this is a lot more than a mere business and the Bills quite likely will generate higher cash returns by maintaining good feelings and peace with their players and by taking risks to go for it for the fans by getting as close to the salary cap as they can to acquire talent.

 

The Bills have been a great business over the past decade, but the problem is they have zero playoff berths to show for it.

 

Maybe us rubes will keep on shelling out the bucks for a loser until Ralph dies and the team is sold and moves. Maybe the decade of failure has nothing to do with the Bills never going into hock to get the best players or rack up non salary cap controlled costs like paying for a Parcells instead of a Jauron.

 

However, if this business wants to merely be a good business then simply screw Peters to the extent the rules allow.

 

However, if they want to be a good football team in addition to being a good business then they will quite likely have to make payments to players which get closer to the limits of the salary cap and acquire and maintain solid relationships with 2 time Pro Bowl players even if the player is an idiot,

 

The Bills appear to be tending toward an emphasis on being a winning football team as seen in the acquisition of bad boy and quite frankly self-centered idiot like TO.

 

My guess is that Ralph wants an SB before he dies. They likely will show Peters the money. He may be a self-centered fool, but he is a fool who did well enough to make the Pro Bowl as a youngster twice, The Bills have few options for getting an accomplished player to replace or be trained up as a replacement for Peters, Going with a first round draft choice (or even two) for Peters would likely get a player whom the Bills would be lucky is he started at all his rookie year and simply would provide value for the Bills after Ralph may be dead.

 

Warts and all my guess is that they sign Peters before camp starts (but likely after the draft as nailing him down before had merely gives info to the enemy).

I think it is worth noting that no one is up in arms about Kelsay and Schobel who are robbing the team absolutely blind, as was Dockery for that matter. If they want to play the "he doesn't deserve that kind of $" card, I don't understand why the don't play it with those guys. If I were Brandon/Wilson, I would be infuriated over their lack of production in relation to their salaries. Even with missing camp and having, for him, an off year, Peters was still more valuable to this team than those two underperforming money pits. The team could save a lot more money without sacrificing performance by cutting loose that dead weight.

[The Senator]

I think it is worth noting that no one is up in arms about Kelsay and Schobel who are robbing the team absolutely blind, as was Dockery for that matter. If they want to play the "he doesn't deserve that kind of $" card, I don't understand why the don't play it with those guys. If I were Brandon/Wilson, I would be infuriated over their lack of production in relation to their salaries. Even with missing camp and having, for him, an off year, Peters was still more valuable to this team than those two underperforming money pits. The team could save a lot more money without sacrificing performance by cutting loose that dead weight.

refresh my memory - how long did kelsay and schobel hold out?

 

folks aren't pissed 'cause peters wants more money - they're pissed at his selfish attitude and how it affected the team last season, and rightly so. they're also thinking that maybe he's not the greatest player to ever set foot on the gridiron, and just might not be worth all the trouble or all the money.

[Ramius]

I think it is worth noting that no one is up in arms about Kelsay and Schobel who are robbing the team absolutely blind, as was Dockery for that matter. If they want to play the "he doesn't deserve that kind of $" card, I don't understand why the don't play it with those guys. If I were Brandon/Wilson, I would be infuriated over their lack of production in relation to their salaries. Even with missing camp and having, for him, an off year, Peters was still more valuable to this team than those two underperforming money pits. The team could save a lot more money without sacrificing performance by cutting loose that dead weight.

 

At least those guys bring it week in and week out and put the team above themselves. Peters is seeming more and more like a fat tub of lard who is going to balloon up to 380 and coast when he signs a new, big money deal. I'm all for a player getting the most money possible. But in return, i expect 100% on the field, not taking 9 games to get into game shape because his fat ass wasn't in camp.

 

Its his antics that people are pissed at, NOT his desire for more money. If Peters had showed up to camp last year and busted his ass, there would be overwhelimg support in his corner to give him a new deal from everyone. Instead, he chose to be a selfish fat baby which is why so many people are against him.

[kayman]

Totally disagree

 

If he had shown up at camp last year he'd have the same offer on the table he has now. Agent lost a lot of client respect both with fans and the team, but most importantly he risked an injury by putting Jason out there obviously not in game shape. If he blew a knee last year it would have cost him EVERYTHING except the guaranteed money in his modest contract.

 

Now here you are a year later with the same demands and nothing has changed (oh with the teeny exception that your client made $5m less last year than the Bills would have guaranteed him). He should have sent Jason to camp and THEN pulled him if the organization wasn't negotiating in good faith.

 

That's what "well played" means. Most money, least risk to client, player/team integrity stays intact.

 

You wait and see. Bills will pay him $9.5 a year, just like they would've last year. Throw in some pro-bowl bonuses and keep the big fella happy.

 

p.s. I keep thinking about how funny it is that we wasted a #4 overall pick on Mike Williams and sitting out there UNDRAFTED for 7 rounds was our Pro Bowl tackle all along. What was JP's college coach thinking putting him at TE? Dumbass. He owes Peters about 20 mil and a few of those hot chicks that love those first round draft picks!!