1billsfan Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Randon thoughts: I put alot of stock in Mayock's projections, his track record at identifying talent is very strong. Thus, reservations I have about Ayers are a muted because of Mayock's belief in him. It's important to remember that while Ayers sack numbers are not strong, he did have 15.5 tackles for a loss. which is a strong reflection that he is able to get pressure. Just a note though- that you bring up Tuck and Umenyiora, they were much more productive college players. Tuck had 13.5 sacks as a junior and Umenyiora had 16 in his final college season. Obviously a bonus with Ayers is, like Tuck, he will be able to be moved inside on passing downs-while the smallish ends/linebackers like Brown and Maybin can't provide that versatility. Don't forget that Ayers played in the NFL's semipro league (the SEC). That and his late maturity may have been the reason for the low sack total. Let's face it given the fact that every single draft eligible DE has a question mark, I'm leaning toward drafting the bigger guy who dominated Senior bowl week and the combine. That's who I'm rolling the dice on. Not the little guy with big sack numbers who's trying to bulk up to play DE in the NFL. I also like that he isn't the "situational" pass rusher. I hate that! Since when did the Bills EVER know when the Pats are going to pass or run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Dan's Revenge Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Don't forget that Ayers played in the NFL's semipro league (the SEC). That and his late maturity may have been the reason for the low sack total. Let's face it given the fact that every single draft eligible DE has a question mark, I'm leaning toward drafting the bigger guy who dominated Senior bowl week and the combine. That's who I'm rolling the dice on. Not the little guy with big sack numbers who's trying to bulk up to play DE in the NFL. I also like that he isn't the "situational" pass rusher. I hate that! Since when did the Bills EVER know when the Pats are going to pass or run! So that's why we haven't beaten them in 11 games.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mousetrap08 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Weaknesses: Pass rushing skills and Techniques and moves? No thanks. Maybe its a sign that the Bills are really looking to trade down in the draft our next Eric Flowers,boy I hope not!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 our next Eric Flowers,boy I hope not!!!!! Or our next Corey Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Mike Mayock kicked him into his top twenty based on that game. Just because he didn't get a sack doesn't mean he wasn't causing havoc. Clearly neither of us saw the game. Anyone here watch that Bama/Vol game care to add their opinion? I didn't watch the game. I saw the YouTube "Ayers vs. Alabama" video. It's 3 minutes and 36 seconds and it shows a total of 15 plays. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccuoGx3A6t4 I audited the plays: 1) Pass play, lightning-quick inside pass rush past statuesque guard. Ayers whacks the quarterback (you can hear the hit) who dumps off for a short completion. 2) Slomo replay of above. 3) Same, different angle. 4) Run play, unblocked, crashed down the line, buries ball carrier unassisted for one yard loss. 5) Run play, Ayers beats Andre Smith (345 lbs) off the snap pushes him back one yard to set the edge, ball carrier runs inside and is tripped up by pursuit. 6) Run play, Ayers lines up wide, surges inside, meets and plays off the tight end, stops ball carrier for no gain. 7) Pass play, Ayers lines up uncovered blows through the running back block (like a fly on the windshield, you can hear this too), pressures an incompletion. 8) Pass play, lines up at tackle, blows past guard, QB throws ball away to avoid sack. 9) Run play, takes inside angle, spins off guard block and gang tackles ball carrier (5 yard gain). 10) Run play, lines up wide, delayed rush, blows up tight end to set the edge, ball carrier cuts inside and is stopped by pursuit (2 yard gain). 11) Pass play on 1st down, lines up against Andre Smith, blows past him, QB checks down and completes pass under pressure. 12) Run play, destroys tight end and piles on ball carrier, 1 yard loss. 13) Run play, dances around Andre Smith (no contact) and takes inside angle, ball carrier bounces outside for 10 yard gain. 14) Run play to opposite side, no involvement. 15) Run play at Ayers, drives Andre Smith backwards to set the edge, redirects towards sideline in attempt to catch ball carrier who has a full head of steam, ball carrier turns corner on Ayers pursuit for 1st down. 16) Run play, lines up wide, destroys tight end and blows up ball carrier for 2 yard loss. 17) Run play, drives Andre Smith backwards 3 yards to set edge, ball carrier cuts inside, no inside-out pursuit by defense, ball carrier lunges into end zone. Fifteen plays. At times it looks like he has little help. On 11 run plays he could possibly be faulted on two plays (13 and 15) for being overly-aggressive in his assignments. That would be quibbling. One play was away from him. On the other 8 run plays he was excellent. On four pass plays he had 4 pressures. It's a small sample size but he was generally dominating in those 15 plays. Here's 6 minutes and 18 seconds more of Ayers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAR9Qb3liRs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Don't forget that Ayers played in the NFL's semipro league (the SEC). That and his late maturity may have been the reason for the low sack total. Let's face it given the fact that every single draft eligible DE has a question mark, I'm leaning toward drafting the bigger guy who dominated Senior bowl week and the combine. That's who I'm rolling the dice on. Not the little guy with big sack numbers who's trying to bulk up to play DE in the NFL. I also like that he isn't the "situational" pass rusher. I hate that! Since when did the Bills EVER know when the Pats are going to pass or run! No, he plays the run very well and has a huge upside. I don't think Michael Johnson or Tyson Jackson compare to this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 No, he plays the run very well and has a huge upside. I don't think Michael Johnson or Tyson Jackson compare to this guy. No? I never disagreed with you about Ayers' talent vs the run. The more I learn about this guy the more I like! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 No? I never disagreed with you about Ayers' talent vs the run. The more I learn about this guy the more I like! Sorry for the misunderstanding. I posted after your quote as a means of agreeing with you about taking Ayers over a tweener like Maybin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rev.Mattb74 ESQ. Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 He better not be. He had three sacks this year!! Nine in his entire four-year career!! Stay away from him. I'd rather trade down and take a shot at Michael Johnson from GT. People can cry "workout warrior" and compare him to Mike Mamula all they want, but at least he had some decent production in college. What did Ayers do?? Basically nothing. AVOID. 15.5 tackles for a loss is pretty good for one year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rev.Mattb74 ESQ. Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 At first glance, Robert Ayers reminds me a lot of Justin Tuck and Osi Umenyiora. Same frame, same athleticism. Some guys just mature later than others. Hence the term "late bloomer". For the guys who said he's done nothing, I've read that he had a great 2008 season. He was unstoppable in the Alabama game and apparently did the same at Senior Bowl week. Put on the tape of the Giant/Pats Superbowl and remind yourself what a big nasty DE can do to Tom Brady's game. Ayers very well could be worth the risk of drafting him at #11. Sorry, but I do put a lot of stock in him being a "late bloomer". Enough of drafting little high motor guys and inflated linebackers and expecting them to exert a pass rush! I like Ayers at 11. If I am going to trust any draftnik it is Mayock. The guys owned alot of top end OTs last year. He played on a bad team that was behind alot, therefore the alot of teams didnt have to throw on them lowering his sack totals. 49 tackles and 15.5 tackles for a loss is pretty good against top competition in the SEC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 No, he plays the run very well and has a huge upside. I don't think Michael Johnson or Tyson Jackson compare to this guy. Please explain what a "huge upside" is. How do YOU look at a player and say... huge upside or little or no upside ? I'm not an "expert", as you obviously are but I'm quite tired of undersized lineman and would prefer the big guy from LSU. Ayers is not a small lineman but this guy is big and seems to hold his weight nicely. Of course, he may not have the "upside" of the "moving up the boards as we speak" Mr. Ayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I like Ayers at 11. If I am going to trust any draftnik it is Mayock. The guys owned alot of top end OTs last year. He played on a bad team that was behind alot, therefore the alot of teams didnt have to throw on them lowering his sack totals. 49 tackles and 15.5 tackles for a loss is pretty good against top competition in the SEC. Why? Do you like to overpay and not get draft picks in return? I think it's pretty safe to say we can get him at #20 or so, so why not trade down on draft day if Ayers is the guy you really want? That being said, San Jose has a great point. Ayers doesn't time well in any speed drills, and his production was atrocious. I'm sick of this "late bloomer" and "good against the run" crap. Finding a DE who is good against the run is easy (Denney and Kelsay aren't bad against the run), and not worth drafting the first day. The trick is to find a pass rushing like Osi and co. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fewell733 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 nice breakdown of the video San Jose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Please explain what a "huge upside" is. How do YOU look at a player and say... huge upside or little or no upside ? I'm not an "expert", as you obviously are but I'm quite tired of undersized lineman and would prefer the big guy from LSU. Ayers is not a small lineman but this guy is big and seems to hold his weight nicely. Of course, he may not have the "upside" of the "moving up the boards as we speak" Mr. Ayers. First off MOVALLEY, I am not an expert nor have I ever claimed to be. I can't figure out if you're being emphatic or hostile. Michael Johnson is a specimen but when I look at his video, I see (and this could just be me) a guy who even though his measurables are off the charts, does not seem to play to his timed speeds. It looks to me like Ayers is quicker, more sudden, changes directions more quickly and fluidly, and has greater intensity. But as I said before, we only get to see a small handful of the plays these guys were involved in. So the sample size is small. As far as what I mean by "huge upside," in this case I mean a guy who didn't play regularly till his senior year and who doesn't have the track record of productivity that some other players have but also a player who looks on tape to me like someone who could be a dominant player and put up huge numbers in sacks, pressures, and tackles for losses (even though he hasn't yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fewell733 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Please explain what a "huge upside" is. How do YOU look at a player and say... huge upside or little or no upside ? I'm not an "expert", as you obviously are but I'm quite tired of undersized lineman and would prefer the big guy from LSU. Ayers is not a small lineman but this guy is big and seems to hold his weight nicely. Of course, he may not have the "upside" of the "moving up the boards as we speak" Mr. Ayers. The LSU guy is almost 300 lbs and would almost certainly be a defensive tackle in our system. He's a 3-4 defensive end pretty much exclusively. He isn't nearly the athlete or the pass rushing threat of the top 4-3 defensive ends. Our problem is pass rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rev.Mattb74 ESQ. Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Why? Do you like to overpay and not get draft picks in return? I think it's pretty safe to say we can get him at #20 or so, so why not trade down on draft day if Ayers is the guy you really want? That being said, San Jose has a great point. Ayers doesn't time well in any speed drills, and his production was atrocious. I'm sick of this "late bloomer" and "good against the run" crap. Finding a DE who is good against the run is easy (Denney and Kelsay aren't bad against the run), and not worth drafting the first day. The trick is to find a pass rushing like Osi and co. How do you know its an overpayment to get him at 11, and just because you want to trade down doesnt mean you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 That being said, San Jose has a great point. Ayers doesn't time well in any speed drills, and his production was atrocious. I'm sick of this "late bloomer" and "good against the run" crap. Finding a DE who is good against the run is easy (Denney and Kelsay aren't bad against the run), and not worth drafting the first day. The trick is to find a pass rushing like Osi and co. I think you misconstrue my meaning hocknod. I believe that Ayers has the tools to be a dominant pass rusher, even though his stats don't support it. nice breakdown of the video San Jose Thank you Jauron. It was fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estro Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I prefer Tyson Jackson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seq004 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 At first glance, Robert Ayers reminds me a lot of Justin Tuck and Osi Umenyiora. Same frame, same athleticism. Some guys just mature later than others. Hence the term "late bloomer". For the guys who said he's done nothing, I've read that he had a great 2008 season. He was unstoppable in the Alabama game and apparently did the same at Senior Bowl week. Put on the tape of the Giant/Pats Superbowl and remind yourself what a big nasty DE can do to Tom Brady's game. Ayers very well could be worth the risk of drafting him at #11. Sorry, but I do put a lot of stock in him being a "late bloomer". Enough of drafting little high motor guys and inflated linebackers and expecting them to exert a pass rush! I would take Brown or Orakpo before Ayers. Forget the late bloomer crap and look at a players over all body of work! They need a dominant DE in this draft and they better not screwing up again. I'm sure we all remember Erik Flowers. Didn't he have a great Senior Bowl also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertpaul49 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 One of the problems with Eric Flowers is that he kept changing his weight. I think part of the issue was development by the Bills. I also think it was a bit of a slap in the face by Butler. Plus, Eric was expected to go in the third, and he dramatically rose up in the draft broads because he put on weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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